Definition of a new character


Starfinder Society

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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A few starfinder abilities (especially the capstone boons) Require a new character, or a character with zero xp.

For pathfinder the definition of a new character was one that hadn't been played at second+ level and solidified yet. Is that definition still in effect, or should we keep credit off of any characters we plan on applying capstones to?

Sovereign Court 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta aka The Masked Ferret

another question - could we apply multiple capstones to the same character?

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

The Masked Ferret wrote:
another question - could we apply multiple capstones to the same character?

A new character receiving the benefts

of a capstone boon can only ever beneft from one capstone boon
(though he can still purchase a capstone boon when he qualifes).

Sovereign Court 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta aka The Masked Ferret

Thanks!

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

I maaaaay have been planning an unholy amalgamation of DM credit when i thought of this question and saw that line...

Sovereign Court 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta aka The Masked Ferret

You too?
Also, GM Babies cannot buy their own capstone boons...

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

The Masked Ferret wrote:

You too?

Also, GM Babies cannot buy their own capstone boons...

No but they can exchange gifts...

The Exchange 1/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent aka Shaudius

Did we ever get an answer to this?

Scarab Sages 4/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think a new character means what it meant before, which is different from the new category, “one of your Starfinder Society characters with 0 XP.”

Wayfinders

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I maaaaay have been planning an unholy amalgamation of DM credit when i thought of this question and saw that line...

Why must it be assumed to be unholy? It might be for the Greater Good :)

Paizo Employee Starfinder Society Developer

Official Clarification: A "new character" is a Starfinder Society character with 0 XP. Unlike race boons, a Capstone boon CANNOT be removed with the pre-2nd level character rebuild.

Developer Logic: Capstone boons are intended to be something momentous for a new character. While I appreciate the joy of theory-crafting on GM babies, I don't necessarily want to see a bunch of characters running around with crazy capstones only for people to remove them with a rebuild and test them out on another character.

Basically, be sure that you want to apply this capstone onto a specific character. Choices matter :)

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, in other words, a new new character? :>

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Thurston Hillman wrote:

Official Clarification: A "new character" is a Starfinder Society character with 0 XP. Unlike race boons, a Capstone boon CANNOT be removed with the pre-2nd level character rebuild.

Developer Logic: Capstone boons are intended to be something momentous for a new character. While I appreciate the joy of theory-crafting on GM babies, I don't necessarily want to see a bunch of characters running around with crazy capstones only for people to remove them with a rebuild and test them out on another character.

Basically, be sure that you want to apply this capstone onto a specific character. Choices matter :)

Its not about moving the captsone around. Its a matter of DM some then apply the capstone or apply the capstone and then dm some. (which means skipping credit on scenarios or just staring the character with a higher pfs number)

Thank yoU!

The Exchange 1/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent aka Shaudius

Whelp looks like I'm moving some planned boons around. Keep getting gm credit for repeatables but want certain character/race combos to get capstones.

2/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Thurston Hillman wrote:

Official Clarification: A "new character" is a Starfinder Society character with 0 XP. Unlike race boons, a Capstone boon CANNOT be removed with the pre-2nd level character rebuild.

Developer Logic: Capstone boons are intended to be something momentous for a new character. While I appreciate the joy of theory-crafting on GM babies, I don't necessarily want to see a bunch of characters running around with crazy capstones only for people to remove them with a rebuild and test them out on another character.

Basically, be sure that you want to apply this capstone onto a specific character. Choices matter :)

This might have an unintended side effect.

What we would like to do is apply capstones to GM credit blobs. This means that we cannot. So we either wait to GM until we've earned the capstone or try to GM extra after we've earned the capstone (because our plans just got scuttled by the ruling), which is difficult with only 75% of a season released.

The intended effect could have been achieved by a rule in the campaign guide stating something to the effect of: Capstone boons are not elligible for rebuild.

2/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Thurston Hillman wrote:
Developer Logic: Capstone boons are intended to be something momentous for a new character. While I appreciate the joy of theory-crafting on GM babies, I don't necessarily want to see a bunch of characters running around with crazy capstones only for people to remove them with a rebuild and test them out on another character.

There's a disconnect between the rationale and the ruling as well as some misunderstandings, I believe.

1. Theory-crafting is something that anyone can do, even without a SFS number assigned for the character. Theory-crafting is something everyone does before creating a character. Theory-crafting is not something that needs to be curtailed.
2. GMs do not theory-craft their GM babies. They theory-craft before they turn their nameless, stat-less unassigned piles of XP (sometimes affectionately known as GM blobs) into GM babies. Once they bring that GM baby to the table, it is set in stone because it is (usually) level 2 or higher by the time it shows its face. There are no rebuilds for GM babies.
3. The issue of level 1 rebuilds is ubiquitous to everyone, player or GM. Anyone with a character with 2 or fewer XP can rebuild.

For example, if I've GMed SFS 1-01 through 1-15 before today and applied that credit to XXX-702, I've yet to play and who's going to be my hot-shot ace pilot, and I've been working towards the Exo-Guardian captstone with my XXX-701, and let's say I'm 3 scenarios away from hitting it. As of now, if I want a hot-shot ace pilot to start with a fancy unique ship, I have to apply the capstone to XXX-703 who has 0 XP, and then GM 15 more scenarios to get back to where I was with my -702.

Since this situation has nothing to do with rebuilds, the question is: Why?

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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I am with the Tiger on this one. I would like to be able to apply it to a GM baby that has a few credits on it but has never been played. I GM so much that I seldom get a chance to start a 0XP character as a player.

Please, reconsider?

Hmm

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Like HMM, even though I don’t currently have a horse in this race, I GM much more SFS than I play, so most of my future characters will have XP assigned.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

2 people marked this as a favorite.

"a new character is a character that has never been played" and "capstones are permanent once applied" would seem to solve that problem without making DMs skip taking credit completely on some games.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Also there's the boon from the Special that lets you start a new character with 3XP. I don't think the intent is that that character can't have race/capstone boons?

Paizo Employee Starfinder Society Developer

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Also there's the boon from the Special that lets you start a new character with 3XP. I don't think the intent is that that character can't have race/capstone boons?

Given the specific flavor of that boon (the sudden re-appearance of a missing individual), I'm actually OK with those new characters not benefiting from Capstone boons that come from the efforts of a character who's never really interacted beyond that one "Big Damn Thing."

I'll let my above ruling stand for now. But feel free to continue with any corner cases you discover. I'll answer as my schedule permits.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

So, to be explicit:

Your intent is for characters with GM credit who have not yet been played to not recieve Capstone boons (or apparently race boons)?

EDIT: and your intent is for characters with only Pregen credit to not recieve Capstone boons (or apparently race boons)?

The Exchange 1/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent aka Shaudius

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Blake's Tiger wrote:


Your intent is for characters with GM credit who have not yet been played to not recieve Capstone boons (or apparently race boons)?

The race boon question is separate and has a different ruling here

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Good, because I will be using the reappearance of a missing individual boon to start off my Skittermander, Aba Calling, at level 2. I would be sad if the reappearing missing individuals could only be core races!

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

^ Did the same for my Skittermander =)

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Keeping characters with dm credit from getting the boon just seems really weird to me. I'm not sure what its supposed to accomplish.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

It definitely can't have anything to do with rebuilds. Anyone can do a 1st level rebuild, and it doesn't have anything to do with GMing or GM credit.

The logic behind the "not characters generated from the 1-99 boon" is odd to me, too. They can't apply it because the characters have only had the interaction during that "One Big Thing," but they can apply it to 0 XP characters who have had no interaction with the preceding characters.


Thurston Hillman wrote:

Official Clarification: A "new character" is a Starfinder Society character with 0 XP. Unlike race boons, a Capstone boon CANNOT be removed with the pre-2nd level character rebuild.

Developer Logic: Capstone boons are intended to be something momentous for a new character. While I appreciate the joy of theory-crafting on GM babies, I don't necessarily want to see a bunch of characters running around with crazy capstones only for people to remove them with a rebuild and test them out on another character.

Basically, be sure that you want to apply this capstone onto a specific character. Choices matter :)

Now is this solely in regards to the Capstone boons, or does this extend to the Instructor boon as well? Presumably the latter, but clarification is always a good thing :P

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

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I already have four characters beyond my initial two with Commencement and Into the Unknown credit. I don't really want to make another character just so that I can benefit from the capstone boons of my first two characters.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This may have a potentially stifling effect at the 'base' level of the campaign if GMs have 'evergreen credit babies' because they've been running a lot of Repeatables for a given area.

...or it may have GMs reconsidering whether to GM a Repeatable (theoretically easier and more 'return on investment') than a 'one and done' scenario.

Sure, GMs get Nova-cred for GMing a thing repeatedly that is not a Repeatable, but that is not the same as getting credit for a character.

I hope that's just overly aggressive concernthoughts on my part.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Keeping characters with dm credit from getting the boon just seems really weird to me. I'm not sure what its supposed to accomplish.

I'm completely with you, and was disappointed not to see any movement on this in the new Guild Guide. Thurston, any chance you could address this particular concern? You replied on the 1-99 boon, but this seems like a bigger issue, and I'm having a hard time understanding the reasoning for it. Wouldn't a line saying 'you can't rebuild away a capstone boon' accomplish the same thing without punishing GMs (I know that's not the intent, but it does seem to be the effect)?

Grand Lodge 1/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I understand there's a ruling in place above, but I'd like to thread necro this, just to maintain visibility that this continues to be 'A Thing' people are bumping up against as more people, GM more, and are getting Capstone boons for the first time. (I hope this isn't sour grapes?)

But - yeah - jumping onto the bandwagon: in the same way that you can rebuild before lvl 2 to add/remove Race boons, it sure would be nice to be able to rebuild before lvl 2 to add/remove Capstones. I've run a load of repeatables, and have to assign my GM Credit to a new PC that I've never played (let alone have a vague character concept for) each time. So even though I've only ever played my -701, -702, and -703, I've got 1 xp on a -704, a -705, a -706, etc.

A lot of people who find themselves in this scenario have probably followed a similar path of "have run a bunch of intro quests & repeatable scenarios at conventions." Those intro quests & repeatables are often the first adventures new Society folks play, and (hopefully!) leave them wanting more Society. So, even though I'm sure we agree that all GMs are amazing volunteers who are helping to grow the community, that is especially true for those who run a lot of "first Society game" adventures (and thus probably have a big stable of -7XXs with 1 XP each.)

An unintended consequence of this ruling is that it feels weirdly punitive for people in that situation.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

It mainly makes it complicated to remember when I'm skipping credit on scenarios and when I'm taking it. To what end I still have no idea.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Thurston Hillman wrote:
Developer Logic: Capstone boons are intended to be something momentous for a new character. While I appreciate the joy of theory-crafting on GM babies, I don't necessarily want to see a bunch of characters running around with crazy capstones only for people to remove them with a rebuild and test them out on another character.

Coming back to this, since the 1.1 Guild Guide (and the same in the 2.0 version), it seems that the reason for this ruling has vanished:

Guild Guide, v1.1 and v2.0 wrote:

REBUILDING YOUR CHARACTER

You can rebuild 1st-level characters using the rules in this appendix.
If you do so, make a note on your most recent Chronicle sheet to
confirm the changes.
If you’ve applied a permanent personal boon slot to a
character (such as a capstone or race boon), you can choose
to swap out or remove the race boon as part of a character
rebuild. If you remove a race boon in this manner, then you
must pick another appropriate race (such as a core race, or a
race made available by another race boon you possess). Single-
use Chronicles that are replaced in this manner are lost
, so be
careful when applying these special boons to new characters
that you might rebuild.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Wouldn't it be much better to simplify the rule to:

* A new character is a character that hasn't been played at level 2 yet.
* You may attach "attach this thing to a new (0 XP) character" things to any such new character, as long as it's still malleable.
* If you take it off the character, it's gone. Can't serially use a boon on multiple new characters.

This would make the rules more uniform and simple, remove a weird and painful disincentive to GMing and making new characters, and still prevent the abuse that the old awkward ruling was intended to prevent.

Grand Lodge 1/5 ⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like your suggestion Lau! Thursty's point about "Unlike race boons, a Capstone boon CANNOT be removed with the pre-2nd level character rebuild" is still there, so you don't get the "recycling" of capstone boons problem; but, it still works for those of us with a bunch of 1-xp-assigned-but-never-played GM Baby PCs.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
If you take it off the character, it's gone. Can't serially use a boon on multiple new characters.

This is the only one I disagree with. I've already done this with my 4xp Sarcesian GM Blob that I no longer wanted to be a Sarcesian. I moved that Race Boon to a 0xp character. If we adopted your ruling, I would lose that Race Boon.

3/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Ohio—Dayton aka Athos710

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This is one of the few things Thursty has ruled on that I disagree with. I have 11 SFS characters, because I've played 1-01 3 times and GM'd it 8 times. I've played 6 of them. 2 are large piles of GM credit (currently 9th and 5th level). I can't apply any capstone boons to any of those remaining 3 characters, who only exist because I GM'd 1-01 and so created a new PC.
I fully support being able to apply a capstone boon to any 1st level PC. I'll happily bypass it for my level 2+ characters that are GM babies. But it would be nice not to have to make 712 and play/GM 1-01 again, just because I've hit the capstone for Luwazi and the Dataphiles with my main PC and GM pile.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I am nowhere near being affected by this, but I do have to point out that this is a ruling that really only hurts people who have GM'd a lot of repeatable low-level scenarios ... who are, in effect, the most important ambassadors of the Society for recruiting new players.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

azjauthor wrote:
I am nowhere near being affected by this, but I do have to point out that this is a ruling that really only hurts people who have GM'd a lot of repeatable low-level scenarios ... who are, in effect, the most important ambassadors of the Society for recruiting new players.

Even running anything low I'm apt to skip credit because I don't have a capstone lined up for the new character yet.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think my first capstone went to my -715...

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have kinda given up even getting a capstone boon, I have GM cred sitting on too many characters. That big capstone reward for reaching the highest level in a faction... is kinda worthless to me with the current ruling.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I have kinda given up even getting a capstone boon, I have GM cred sitting on too many characters. That big capstone reward for reaching the highest level in a faction... is kinda worthless to me with the current ruling.

I cobbled together a DM credit and AP credit into a level 12 with a capstone to give to a level 1.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Oh that's genius.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

6 people marked this as a favorite.
azjauthor wrote:
I am nowhere near being affected by this, but I do have to point out that this is a ruling that really only hurts people who have GM'd a lot of repeatable low-level scenarios ... who are, in effect, the most important ambassadors of the Society for recruiting new players.

The ruling creates perverse incentives for anyone who's closing in on a capstone boon:

* "If I don't GM this week but in a few weeks, I can start my new character with a capstone" - any disincentive to GM is very bad.

* "Well guys I have a level 4 but you're all level 1. I could make a new level 1 character so we're all in the same subtier, but then I miss out on a capstone because I need a few more sessions with my other character for that." - any incentive to not play the most in-subtier character is also bad.

* "I can join one of two tables, the already 5 player table or this newbie table with only three people at it. But if I play the newbie scenario now then the credit I gain will be wasted because I'd have to start yet another character to be able to use the capstone." - any disincentive to good mustering is well, bad.

* "I can play the 1-4 scenario with a new character, but can't use the capstone then. And it's not a replayable scenario, so I'm essentially just burning it. And as a player you can't play for no credit." - an incentive not to play is bad.

And this is all so unnecessary.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Society Developer

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I am concerned about GM babies.

I am looking into alternative means of solving this dilemma.

SkalCon is home.

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