Please answer this question about "Like The Sun"

Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Hello all.

I've been arguing with some people for a week now about Sunrod Trick "Like The Sun".

They argue that you can use it to qualify for Mystic Theurge with 1 level wizard and 2 levels cleric, because the Sunrod Trick lets you cast Dancing Lantern as a "second level spell for all purposes".

I argue this absolutely does not qualify as "ability to cast second level spells", because you simply do not count as having the ability to cast second level spells until you have second level spell slots.

Please give this an answer. This argument should be dead and buried.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Like the Sun (ability to cast any spell with the light descriptor): You can use a sunrod as an additional material component for any spell that bears the light descriptor. The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness.

They can cast a second level spell only while they use the sunrod as a material component.

That don't give them the ability to cast second level spells any more than having a scroll of a second level spell equipped allow them to cast a second level spell.

Whenever one of these tricks is attempted, here's how you could argue it.

Ask this: 'what 2nd level spells can you cast?' Until they come up with plural answers they don't make the qualification. A single 2nd-level spell is not the same as 'can cast 2nd level spells'.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

everybody has a plan that won't work...

the ability to cast second level spells is different than casting a first level spell and having it treated as second level. Otherwise Magical Lineage with a +1 metamagic and a first level spell would qualify (ignoring the general rules for metamagic).

Clearly the designers want it to be 3rd level in two classes as they ruled SLAs don't qualify (and they did in 3.5). It is a high price to pay for casting many spells but can be worth it as a support caster. The extra wizarding feats are lost or channel die increases...

The only way around the Mystic Theurge tax is to have your home game GM lower the requirements -OR- ask to get your primary class benefits back. You probably won't get both.

In PFS it doesn't work in general as the play ends at 12th level and the character is way behind on casting at 7th level and will just balance out around 10th level. A good number of Tier 5-9 scenarios will kill a sub-par character.

Being able to cast a single 2nd level spell meets the requirement of "being able to cast 2nd level spells". RAW the sun rod trick works. RAI, it's clearly an abuse of the rules to do this.

A stronger argument is that the character needs to be able to cast a divine spell using a 2nd level spell slot and that they also need to be able to cast an arcane spell using a 2nd level spell slot. This shuts down the abuse without needlessly placing restrictions on other classes that should legitimately be able to qualify for the requirement of "can cast 2nd level spells". Such as a sorcerer at 4th level (only knows 1 2nd level spell, but can cast that spell a bunch of times) and a ranger at 7th level ("knows" lots of 2nd level spells, but can only cast 1 each day).

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