Re-define character levels (= HD) as a "somewhat loose yet tight" power gauge and a lot could be solved.
The average abilities of spells learned by spellcasters of level X should serve well as each level's power ceiling.
I think the high level fighter has been a problematic class for people to imagine for a very long time because what does the mundane character get from leveling up? The brawler idea was the first thing I saw to start to address the idea that an experienced fighter has seen enough things in life to have the resources to respond flexibly to the situation at hand, but it never interested me enough to play one and the feat chain requirements made the one flexible feat a little convoluted to try to play for me, but that idea "martial flexibility" is one I would like fighters to really hone in on.
Also, as a high magic setting, I think it is pretty inevitable that the high level fighter is going to be doing a lot of magical stuff on their turn. It might be cool if they can give the fighter a way to use their resonance in a similar fashion to the alchemist (a non-magical character this time around), but with weapons. I really like the idea of using resonance to empower improvised weapons.
I would also love to hear from anyone who has ever played a 15th+ pure-fighter character. Pathfinder was always too full of options for me to ever consider that a fun build beyond theory-crafting or testing some wonky combat mechanic. For a full AP, it would never have caught my attention.
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Uh, not so.
Not so at all. Some players like to follow the rules.
Please stop trying to paint the opening of the class as something that needs to happen or something players universally want. It clouds the issue.
Many players like it and want it to stay LG.
Many players dislike it and want Paladins opened.
I acknowledge that there are players who both like and dislike a LG-only paladin, but that's irrelevant to what I posted. I was calling out how disingenuous it is to say "my way needs to be the rules default so I don't have to convince people it's a good idea." Rather than show how the flavor and lore you're always going on about adds to the game, you want to be able to just appeal to the rules, just like this:
Some players like to follow the rules.
Any idea that needs to be legislated to catch on is a poor idea.
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I would also love to hear from anyone who has ever played a 15th+ pure-fighter character. Pathfinder was always too full of options for me to ever consider that a fun build beyond theory-crafting or testing some wonky combat mechanic. For a full AP, it would never have caught my attention.
It wasn't even a full theory-build so much as just playing around with some mechanics, but one of the things I did once: Start with a Warhammer with Versatile Design (Adventurer's Armory 2) into Throwing group. Apply +1 Shock (or better Shocking Burst) and Throwing enchants to it. Then on the Fighter take the feat chains for Ricochet Toss, Startoss Style, and the Flight Mastery item mastery feat. Once you reach this point you're basically pre-Ragnarok MCU Thor, right up to and including using your hammer to fly.
It wasn't even a full theory-build so much as just playing around with some mechanics, but one of the things I did once: Start with a Warhammer with Versatile Design (Adventurer's Armory 2) into Throwing group. Apply +1 Shock (or better Shocking Burst) and Throwing enchants to it. Then on the Fighter take the feat chains for Ricochet Toss, Startoss Style, and the Flight Mastery item mastery feat. Once you reach this point you're basically pre-Ragnarok MCU Thor, right up to and including using your hammer to fly.
Shinigami, that is an interesting build. What level did you build to? Flying is a pretty good utility power, and if that character could break down walls with ease, and be decent at either intimidate, survival, or making things, there is enough utility there where I could see it a fun character beyond a single fight.
Shinigami, that is an interesting build. What level did you build to? Flying is a pretty good utility power, and if that character could break down walls with ease, and be decent at either intimidate, survival, or making things, there is enough utility there where I could see it a fun character beyond a single fight.
It wasn't even a full theory-build so much as just playing around with some mechanics, but one of the things I did once: Start with a Warhammer with Versatile Design (Adventurer's Armory 2) into Throwing group. Apply +1 Shock (or better Shocking Burst) and Throwing enchants to it. Then on the Fighter take the feat chains for Ricochet Toss, Startoss Style, and the Flight Mastery item mastery feat. Once you reach this point you're basically pre-Ragnarok MCU Thor, right up to and including using your hammer to fly.
Sadly as I said I didn't even reach the theory-build stages, just playing around with mechanics. The sheer number of feats needed for it to work pretty much means it's Fighter exclusive though so I thought it was appropriate. ^.^; You could have all the feats for it to function (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus, Ricochet Toss, Startoss Style, and Flight Mastery by way of Advanced Weapon Training feat) as early as level 8, level 6 for all but the flight itself, and the +2 (+1 Throwing) hammer should also be affordable around that same point (the electricity can be added later for the full Thor experience.)
Besides that, with some of the stuff in Advanced Weapon and Armor Training you can get some pretty awesome stuff on fighters. It all comes down to knowing where to look and playing around with stuff to find crazy combinations. For instance, with the Thor build, something as simple as making the hammer Adamantine would allow for easy smashing of course, and with Adaptable Training advanced armor and weapon trainings you can easily pick up a few more skills (the weapon version getting you more skills at once but more limited in which skills).
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At least from a figher/monk/barb type deal:
BBEG locked up their fortress and has anti scry and fry? Just let the martial walk up to the gates and beat the gate or such senselessly until it falls, or shove their fist through those gates and tear the lock joints out like a child unwrapping presents.
High level fighter specifically should be able to weaponize just about anything. Table leg? Enemy Corpse? Still living enemy? A wooden cart? Swing em or throw em. It's all natural to ye.
Superhuman endurance. I reject the idea that superhuman abilities or talents can't duplicate or have quasi spell like effects. Sleep? Food? Water? Who needs it. High Level martials should be able to go several days while rejecting sleep and food and slightly less for rejecting any water before suffering any statistical penalties and or any of the above 3 become necessary. Endgame / high level martials should be able to march faster and for longer periods of time while taking reduced penalties if you wish as well. Intense weather or temperatures? As long as they aren't on another plane of existence, they can take a bit of it before needing to address it similar to a stripped down version of endure elements.
Need to bring the martial along underwater but didn't prepare enough water breathing? That's fine, A(n) high level / endgame martial should probably be able to hold their own breath for about 2 hours or so. Give em a bag of air and once they need it, they're good for another 2 hours.
Huge enemy? Save your silly enlarges, for we might not need it if the martial can still wrestle with an enemy about 20 ft or so tall with little issue.
Meat shielding against your enemies is probably a given so bring on the endless hordes ect...
At least from a figher/monk/barb type deal:...
Endgame / high level martials should be able to march faster and for longer periods of time while taking reduced penalties if you wish as well.
I agree with this idea, but in PF1 practice it has worked out where you maybe get 1 of theses abilities, at level 20 and the wizard can burn one 2nd or 3rd level spell to do each of these tasks for as long as is necessary. I hope that the decreases in duration will help with that massive power differential some, but I would also like to see a way for some of these things to be possible for the 17-20 martial character without incredibly narrow specialization.
I agree with this idea, but in PF1 practice it has worked out where you maybe get 1 of theses abilities, at level 20 and the wizard can burn one 2nd or 3rd level spell to do each of these tasks for as long as is necessary. I hope that the decreases in duration will help with that massive power differential some, but I would also like to see a way for some of these things to be possible for the 17-20 martial character without incredibly narrow specialization.At least from a figher/monk/barb type deal:...
Endgame / high level martials should be able to march faster and for longer periods of time while taking reduced penalties if you wish as well.
Oh yea for certain. That whole wall of text is something I envision for martials in general, not necessarily requiring a specialization of any sort. Just the pushing of their physical limits as far as we can go.
It would be possible to deliver everything people want, but possibly not in one game. If people want fighters that wouldn't be out of place in Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones, then those people also get casters that would fit into those stories. Which probably means at least three game-equivalents, one for the LotR/GoT level warriors and mages, one for where you get the equivalent of Beowulf/Odysseus/Cuchulain/Medea, and one where you go wild with characters who'd fit into Wuxia, Superhero comics, the Mahabharatha, Journey to the West or other high-powered material. More realistically, pick one of those for PF2, and in a later supplement provide the alternatives for more/less powerful types of game.Fighter being completely mundane is both the point and the problem. If high-level casters are going to be what they are, then high-level martials need to be Wuxia-type characters. Mundane Fighting Man is a low-level concept for low-level games and/or low-magic settings. Likewise, Batman either needs non-superpowered opposition, or gadgets that effectively turn him into a superhero.Fighters
Fighters are like Batman. They’re defined by their lack of superhuman abilities. Aka magic. If the fighter starts being able to do fantastic things, it’s like Batman having the ability to read minds or fly. It defeats the whole purpose. They lose what makes them special.A magical fighter is cool. That’s a magus or eldritch knight. But that’s not the baseline. Wuxia is cool, but sometimes you want to play Lord of the Rings, Willow, or Robin Hood.
I'm convinced that 3e/PF's enduring success is in large part because it's one of the few games that allows characters to start out at the first category and grow into the second. Most other games are much more tightly bracketed by power floor and ceiling, and the vast majority of those at the low end. Forgotten Realms and Golarion are quite unlike LotR and ASOIAF and arguably 3.PF is not well-suited to running games in low-fantasy settings.
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A magical fighter is cool. That’s a magus or eldritch knight. But that’s not the baseline. Wuxia is cool, but sometimes you want to play Lord of the Rings, Willow, or Robin Hood.
I'd argue that those three stories are all at low-to-mid levels.
Like, "normal" magic lets you create balls of energy or see around corners or mess with people's minds. No one in universe should be surprised by that stuff.
"Normal" fighting lets you kill huge monsters with a few well-placed strikes, or clamber atop a bucking oliphant, or fight off a dozen orcs.
But then there are the truly fantastic heroes. The "fantastic" magic lets people flit across the world in an instant, return the dead to life, control the minds of a whole crowd, crumble mountains, set fire to entire forests.
"Fantastic" fighting lets you rip a piece of stone from the ground and fling it through a group of enemies to crush them all, or leap unassisted onto a dragon flying overhead, or on instinct dodge an incoming enchantment spell even though it has no physical form, or strike the arteries of a dozen foes in a single sprint to create a mist of blood that lets you and your allies retreat, or see an unfamiliar monster and just intuit from imperceptible clues what sorts of attacks and vulnerabilities it will have.
Like, in comics you've got the Batman who uses lots of gadgets to knock out a handful of guys, and you've got the Batman who sprints through a hail of machine gun shots and is untouched, and the Batman who shakes off Gorilla Grodd's mind control by focusing on the memories of his dead family, then judo flips the 4 ton gorilla off a cliff right before an explosion engulfs the whole mountainside, and manages to catch himself on a conveniently-placed branch, flip to lower his momentum, and land without being hurt.
And then you have the Batman with 'magic full plate' that lets him punch Superman to death.
PF2 is trending towards Golarion, so I dont think the CRB need worry about mentioning homebrewing pallys.
I hope I can get a good 8-10 levels before the game goes supers gonzo. If I can have that, I dont care what the second half looks like.
By the way I really like supers gonzo, but I think it shoudn't take place until after level 10.
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In regards to cool stuff for martials, and paladins in particular, a couple of things:
1st: Paladins are getting Litanies as class feats, presumably with the consumption of Spell Points. I love this idea, and expanding litanies to provide various effects (similar to the "Animal's Action" line of spells) would provide for really cool effects.
2nd: I also think that Resonance might just be the solution to this problem. If everyone has access to some sort of magical energy, why not make use of it in creative ways? If I were designing, I would come up with pseudo-magical feats (exploits? :P) that consume Resonance to activate. That idea of Captain America-esque throwing a shield to block an attack: What if that was a resonance feat? Resonance feats could even increase your maximum resonance, allowing you to actually mix-and-match your abilities as necessary with an ever-growing pool. Then you could have all sorts of things that mimic the Item Mastery feats in PF1, with a resonance cost for them instead of the X/day mentality and unattached from specific items or saving throws.
The additional plus side of that is that it implements a fatigue mechanic for martials, so there's less parity between them and casters in regard to the 15-minute workday.