Chaos Knight Brainsplat


Prerelease Discussion


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So I'm one of "those people" who love the paladin as the iconic it is. Apparently this makes me a terrible person who hates chaos. I say that tongue in cheek, because it's pretty silly.

I've done so many things that've gotten the cops called on me, oh man.

Spoiler:

...Because I and friends were being inspired, silly, and having fun. All art involved, no substance abuse or anything like that, just high on what we were doing at the moment. We were just people a little outside of the rules and loved it that way.

Come on down. :D

What I'd love to do is come together with you guys and share ideas for a Chaos Knight. I'd like to explore ideas both past and present that would make this concept, in the words of Immortal Bill and Ted: ROCK, like the Wyld Stallion it could be. There's a third movie in the works, by the way.

Even if Paizo doesn't make one for 2e, I'll set my head to this (after I redo artificer, oh gods) because I selfishly want these on my goblins, and something about it cried out for a chaos-inspired fire-haired elf who thunders down from above, flying through the force of a chaotic warp while wielding a flaming sword. Hell, I might even be making a subrace of goblin that looks like the Fireys because ohmigosh Jim Henson I love you. >.>

Is that too much? Have I said, revealed too much?

We can be honest with eachother.

SO.

Cool Ideas That are Out There Already!

I did some quick webcombing for existing concepts tied to chaos knights. Some fun themes stood out:

* Ability to warp reality: This might be a defensive ability (in place of armor or shield) or an offensive attack.
* Ability to telport/mobility: This reflects their ability to move through/alter reality and inability to be held down.
* Affinity for fire: Something about fire thematically ties itself to chaos in a real way. Plu, it's awesome sf-x!
* Intimidating??: Chaotic knight type classes seem to focus more on intimidation rather than diplomacy. I guess this makes sense, if you look at chaos as the strength of the individual or their own personality. Also, looking /into/ Chaos would be damnably terrifying for many!
* Ability to break bonds and curses: Part of this is similar to casting a generic Protection from X spell on someone. I'd prolly do something like enabling someone to reroll a save. Maybe curses the same way. Oh, hey. What if for longterm curses, they could etch a Rune of Truth on the victim, to let them have control for a few hours? At higher levels, this gets more effective.
* Ability to Inspire: Because it's a function of the force of personality! Also, how many deities of art and inspiration lean chaotic?

Chaos as a Force of Personality

Chaos is less collectively focused than Order, so we /could/ say it's more based on the force of the will of the individual and their personality. So, this would be a Charisma-focused class with a high will save.

Just roll with me, here. I'm going somewhere.

Taking the Force of Personality angle lets us re-imagine some of the more destructive abilities associated with chaos. I mean, look at the Proteans, amiright? Many of the abilities I've seen tied to Chaos knight concepts also, are destructive. A 3.5 version of the class showed abilities like Brutal Aura, or Fear Aura. Intimidate is a huge element, which is like having a strong, intimidating personality.

So I get that. I do. Force of personality and all that. But, a CG version of Fear Aura might be Inspiring Aura, that was tied tied to the arts and inspiration.

Aren't gods of inspiration largely chaotic? Inspiration doesn't need to mean instruments; it can mean inspiring others, too. In any direction, good or bad. Let's get back to that personality thing and how it opens things up.

To cover both bases, whether someone wanted an Evil Chaos Knight or a Goodly one: we could offer class feats (aka "class talents") that let them choose an Intimidation effect, or an Enthrall effect where the force of their personality gets used different ways. Maybe they get bonuses when Influencing someone!

Intimidate, Inspire therefore, are two "force of personality" options that give life to the Chaotic concept. I suspect we could expand this much further.

Chaos as the Power of the Primordial

What was at the beginning of creation? We don't know, but we know there was a lot of power, potentially a lot of chaos! The Proteans want to get us back there. Plus, this is a really cool theme because it's both powerful and unknown.

I suspect this idea could be expanded hugely.

High Level Chaotic Powers

I'm basing these on Proteans, but you've got things like:
* Freedom of Movement
* Some shape changing (we might want to keep this more humanoid in form or limited; this wouldn't be a shapechanging class per se. The concept of Chaos though, includes mutable forms and this would be AMAZING to explore)
* Freedom from Possession/Mental Control: Possibly due to a more incomprehensible mind at the highest levels; they've touched the Outer planes. Attempting to read them causes damage, as they have the power to cast their minds and thoughts into the furthest levels of inspiration and creation.
* Resistance to Polymorph Effects: Others don't control your form. You do!

There is a lot of "meat" here. I'd love to dig in. What've you got that sounds awesome to you? :D


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Going on the extraordinarily limited mechanical understanding I have of PF2, I want a Reaction that warps reality so that when someone attacks you, you open a wormhole, their attack goes through, and then it hits them.

Why can a Chaos Knight do that? No clue. Is it too good? I dunno. But I want Chaos Knight to beat people to death with their own arms, and for fighting them to get really confusing.


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Xerres wrote:

Going on the extraordinarily limited mechanical understanding I have of PF2, I want a Reaction that warps reality so that when someone attacks you, you open a wormhole, their attack goes through, and then it hits them.

Why can a Chaos Knight do that? No clue. Is it too good? I dunno. But I want Chaos Knight to beat people to death with their own arms, and for fighting them to get really confusing.

Yesssssssssssss. :D

Building on your idea: What if they possessed an ability to encourage someone to rethink their position? Call it: Breaking Rigid Thought (but something cooler and more thematic, obv.).

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

I see Chaos as rejecting outside influences

So getting additional saves to get rid of effects would make huge sense while being a nice counterpart to the higher saves of the Paladin

Self healing also including healing of conditions

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

Strenghtening impulses and emotions in others while reducing the hold of inhibitions and logic sounds great. In a way it is making the target less Lawful

But then I can see Lawful having a similar power too. Maybe these powers would be Evil though since the target does not choose this change


I wouldn't go with fire as main theme, but there could be abilities that use random elements, drawing in chaotic powers

With enough shape changing abilities they could become better shifters (the only class that was utterly dissappointing...)

Reality Warping: You spoke of teleport, what about teleporting ohters? Lets say an enemy critically misses you - reaction to exchange your position with another enemy, the first one gets a reroll and attacks his ally
Or generally switching places with other characters instead of just using teleport, gives some nice tactical options.

Or thinking with portals - use an extra action to stab an enemy at range, why walk if you can hit the sucker from where you stand?

Another for warping and moving around - stand in front of the enemy and still flank them, how? well for a moment your blade moved in a really really weird way that shouldnt be possible

And of course since you can't put chaos in a hard concept there should be options that work for every weapon and armor type

and since we are at chaos lets get weird
let a good warrior of chaos get a breath weapon akin to a fairy dragon (and while he is not using it he still burps rainbow smoke)

while at the same time an evil warrior of chaos can grow additional arms and get other weird/cool mutations


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The Raven Black wrote:

Strenghtening impulses and emotions in others while reducing the hold of inhibitions and logic sounds great. In a way it is making the target less Lawful

But then I can see Lawful having a similar power too. Maybe these powers would be Evil though since the target does not choose this change

I can imagine a Chaos Knight rolling through a tavern, and the paladin waking up the next morning, swearing a blue streak.

He has NO IDEA how the CK talked him into the drinking contest.

...or the night of drunken singing, after.

STRAIGHT TO THE TEMPLE, SIR.

Bond Breaker: You're able to call on the Primordeal for a sudden surge of strength. This strengh lets you break barriers.
* Low level effects: Bonds, manacles.
* High level effects: Wall of force.

This effect must be used on a binding of some kind. Lower level effects are physical bindings. Higher level are metaphysical.


So I'm going to build on your ideas, here...

Seisho wrote:


I wouldn't go with fire as main theme, but there could be abilities that use random elements, drawing in chaotic powers.

With enough shape changing abilities they could become better shifters (the only class that was utterly dissappointing...)

You know, the current Witch has some animal form hexes. We could offer something like that, to make it a side, but useful option of the class.

...oooorrr offer something like the old Wild Warden (what am I thinking of?) archetype that let you transform parts of yourself. Or something like what the current Alchemist does. Armbs, limbs, whatever!

Seisho wrote:


Reality Warping: You spoke of teleport, what about teleporting ohters? Lets say an enemy critically misses you - reaction to exchange your position with another enemy, the first one gets a reroll and attacks his ally.

Or generally switching places with other characters instead of just using teleport, gives some nice tactical options.

Or thinking with portals - use an extra action to stab an enemy at range, why walk if you can hit the sucker from where you stand?

Another for warping and moving around - stand in front of the enemy and still flank them, how? well for a moment your blade moved in a really really weird way that shouldnt be possible

I smell scalable powers, here! Say:

Chaotic Mobility:
* Lower level: Displacement
* Mid level Option: Dimension door
* Mid level Option: Rift reality and swap places with a willing ally
* High level: Dimension door others
* High level: Open a Warp Wound inside an enemy

Seisho wrote:


And of course since you can't put chaos in a hard concept there should be options that work for every weapon and armor type

I'm staaarting to think, let's look at the Unchained monk and draw in some inspiration. Their mobility, unusual ability to draw in ki--things like that. What do you think? Do any ideas from there strike you, or is this a dead end?

Seisho wrote:

and since we are at chaos lets get weird
let a good warrior of chaos get a breath weapon akin to a fairy dragon (and while he is not using it he still burps rainbow smoke)

while at the same time an evil warrior of chaos can grow additional arms and get other weird/cool mutations

This could tie into their shapeshi--ooooh.

Hey. Hey hey hey. :D

What if they could develop a spellwarp breath or attack? Think the spell blights, but tied to a breath weapon or a weapon rune or warp attack.


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I like the idea of a Chaos Knight bestowing a reroll & take the greater as a boon instead of the traditional +X boon that's usually bestowed. Or maybe a +NdX or something, like "Target gets +1d6 for attacks, on each attack, for the next round" so they roll 1d20+1d6 to see if they hit. Maybe a little clunky? IDK!

Breaking Rigid Thought -> Out of the Box? or Out of Box Experience? or There is No Spoon???

Warping reality to get a bonus to AC sounds cool, with the reaction to make an opponent hit himself is also pretty nice.


R0b0tBadgr wrote:

I like the idea of a Chaos Knight bestowing a reroll & take the greater as a boon instead of the traditional +X boon that's usually bestowed. Or maybe a +NdX or something, like "Target gets +1d6 for attacks, on each attack, for the next round" so they roll 1d20+1d6 to see if they hit. Maybe a little clunky? IDK!

Breaking Rigid Thought -> Out of the Box? or Out of Box Experience? or There is No Spoon???

Warping reality to get a bonus to AC sounds cool, with the reaction to make an opponent hit himself is also pretty nice.

Building on your ideas, here...

What if we tied in your idea with a Chaos Knight's ability to Inspire with their ability to exert force and call on the Primordeal?

They could in a burst, create an effect that let allies choose an ability:
* Sudden mobility
* Sudden damage to attack
* Sudden boost to spell

...that would tip the tide of battle in each person's own, unique way. I mean, why give them all the same thing? That's both A. Boring, and B. Doesn't respect their individual talents.


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I actually have some ideas for the "evil Paladins" that I will probably post on the homebrew forum when the game actually releases and I know how all the rules fit together. That will have a Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic variants that all work on the same chassis.

I really like the idea of basing the chaos champ around morphing as it kind of ties in to proteans and stuff. My own idea for the chaotic/evil antipaladin will probably involve mutation and light body horror now.

Here is a question though: why would a champion of chaos be a knight? Knights are bound by oaths and such.

Antipaladins are one thing: they are twisted mockeries of noble knights.

However, why not have the chaos champion be more mechanically similar to a rogue (a criminal) rather than a knight (an agent of the state or organized religion)?


Excaliburproxy wrote:


Here is a question though: why would a champion of chaos be a knight? Knights are bound by oaths and such.

Antipaladins are one thing: they are twisted mockeries of noble knights.

However, why not have the chaos champion be more mechanically similar to a rogue (a criminal) rather than a knight (an agent of the state or organized religion)?

What name do you like? Think of this as a giant sketchpad, with a lot of authors and scribble marks everywhere!


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MuddyVolcano wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:


Here is a question though: why would a champion of chaos be a knight? Knights are bound by oaths and such.

Antipaladins are one thing: they are twisted mockeries of noble knights.

However, why not have the chaos champion be more mechanically similar to a rogue (a criminal) rather than a knight (an agent of the state or organized religion)?

What name do you like? Think of this as a giant sketchpad, with a lot of authors and scribble marks everywhere!

I would want to go with something like "Incendiary" or something of the sort.

"Trickster" might work too. Edit: I like Trickster way more after thinking about for a minute due to its shear mythic cache.


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The Raven Black wrote:

I see Chaos as rejecting outside influences

So getting additional saves to get rid of effects would make huge sense while being a nice counterpart to the higher saves of the Paladin

Self healing also including healing of conditions

My Form, My Will (self-healing ability): Represents the ultimate possession the Chaos Knight has over their own form and the ultimate in personal Willpower. Their body resists the influence of others even on the physical level. That includes damage. They remove any change they do not permit.

This means that self-healing for them would work sort of like regeneration.

* Lower levels: Removes minor status effects, minor healing.
* Mid levels: Resist polymorph effects, medium healing.
* High levels: Refuse polymorph effects, gives Regeneration.

Excaliburproxy wrote:

I would want to go with something like "Incendiary" or something of the sort.

"Trickster" might work too. Edit: I like Trickster way more after thinking about for a minute due to its shear mythic cache.

Still tossing around ideas...Primordeal Force, Morphic Warrior, Protean Disciple

I like Incendiary, too!

I have to say that Trickster, to me, suggests more abilities like bluff and traps? I like the name; I'm just not as sure it reflects some of the abilities we are tossing around so far? Or, does it imply a direction you'd be interested in?


MuddyVolcano wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I see Chaos as rejecting outside influences

So getting additional saves to get rid of effects would make huge sense while being a nice counterpart to the higher saves of the Paladin

Self healing also including healing of conditions

My Form, My Will (self-healing ability): Represents the ultimate possession the Chaos Knight has over their own form and the ultimate in personal Willpower. Their body resists the influence of others even on the physical level. That includes damage. They remove any change they do not permit.

This means that self-healing for them would work sort of like regeneration.

* Lower levels: Removes minor status effects, minor healing.
* Mid levels: Medium status effects, medium healing.
* High levels: Regeneration.

Excaliburproxy wrote:

I would want to go with something like "Incendiary" or something of the sort.

"Trickster" might work too. Edit: I like Trickster way more after thinking about for a minute due to its shear mythic cache.

Still tossing around ideas...Primordeal Force, Morphic Warrior, Protean Disciple

I like Incendiary, too!

I have to say that Trickster, to me, suggests more abilities like bluff and traps? I like the name; I'm just not as sure it reflects some of the abilities we are tossing around so far? Or, does it imply a direction you'd be interested in?

I think it is something that already contains some of the ideas here:

A mythic trickster like Loki liked to change shape and form a lot and tricksters are also known for their ability to "escape" through their cleverness. "Escaping" and mobility are both sort of part of the same paradigm as freedom thematically.

That said, I think the chaos champion would be a master of misdirection and illusion.

Also: I tend to prefer evocative single word titles for class names. That is how Paizo generally does things too.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
MuddyVolcano wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I see Chaos as rejecting outside influences

So getting additional saves to get rid of effects would make huge sense while being a nice counterpart to the higher saves of the Paladin

Self healing also including healing of conditions

My Form, My Will (self-healing ability): Represents the ultimate possession the Chaos Knight has over their own form and the ultimate in personal Willpower. Their body resists the influence of others even on the physical level. That includes damage. They remove any change they do not permit.

This means that self-healing for them would work sort of like regeneration.

* Lower levels: Removes minor status effects, minor healing.
* Mid levels: Medium status effects, medium healing.
* High levels: Regeneration.

Excaliburproxy wrote:

I would want to go with something like "Incendiary" or something of the sort.

"Trickster" might work too. Edit: I like Trickster way more after thinking about for a minute due to its shear mythic cache.

Still tossing around ideas...Primordeal Force, Morphic Warrior, Protean Disciple

I like Incendiary, too!

I have to say that Trickster, to me, suggests more abilities like bluff and traps? I like the name; I'm just not as sure it reflects some of the abilities we are tossing around so far? Or, does it imply a direction you'd be interested in?

I think it is something that already contains some of the ideas here:

A mythic trickster like Loki liked to change shape and form a lot and tricksters are also known for their ability to "escape" through their cleverness. "Escaping" and mobility are both sort of part of the same paradigm as freedom thematically.

That said, I think the chaos champion would be a master of misdirection and illusion.

Also: I tend to prefer evocative single word titles for class names. That is how Paizo generally does things too.

I can see that. :D I think one of us is thinking more warrior, the other more rogue. Do you think there'd be room for both concepts if it was a 3/4|L6 caster style class?

Mind, my brainstorm here is in response for the wont for a Chaotic Defender type, something that makes someone sit up and go: I WANT THAT.

Maybe we need both Chaotic Defender and Trickster?


Paladin style is more important since it's different from cleric more and warpriest/Inquisitor while handle that later.


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MuddyVolcano wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
MuddyVolcano wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I see Chaos as rejecting outside influences

So getting additional saves to get rid of effects would make huge sense while being a nice counterpart to the higher saves of the Paladin

Self healing also including healing of conditions

My Form, My Will (self-healing ability): Represents the ultimate possession the Chaos Knight has over their own form and the ultimate in personal Willpower. Their body resists the influence of others even on the physical level. That includes damage. They remove any change they do not permit.

This means that self-healing for them would work sort of like regeneration.

* Lower levels: Removes minor status effects, minor healing.
* Mid levels: Medium status effects, medium healing.
* High levels: Regeneration.

Excaliburproxy wrote:

I would want to go with something like "Incendiary" or something of the sort.

"Trickster" might work too. Edit: I like Trickster way more after thinking about for a minute due to its shear mythic cache.

Still tossing around ideas...Primordeal Force, Morphic Warrior, Protean Disciple

I like Incendiary, too!

I have to say that Trickster, to me, suggests more abilities like bluff and traps? I like the name; I'm just not as sure it reflects some of the abilities we are tossing around so far? Or, does it imply a direction you'd be interested in?

I think it is something that already contains some of the ideas here:

A mythic trickster like Loki liked to change shape and form a lot and tricksters are also known for their ability to "escape" through their cleverness. "Escaping" and mobility are both sort of part of the same paradigm as freedom thematically.

That said, I think the chaos champion would be a master of misdirection and illusion.

Also: I tend to prefer evocative single word titles for class names. That is how Paizo generally does things too.

Hrm. Okay! I think one of us is thinking more warrior, the other more rogue. Do you think there'd be room for both concepts if it was a 3/4|L6 caster style class?

Or is there a stronger need for one over the other? Mind, my brainstorm here is in response for the wont for a Chaotic Defender type, something that makes someone sit up and go: I WANT THAT.

Maybe we need both Chaotic Defender and Trickster?

I could totally imagine a CK summoning amount from the ether.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the bard does most of what I am thinking about.

That said, if you want a chaotic themed defender: I think something like the mesmerist could put you on the right track. You could use your reaction each turn to teleport allies or use illusions to grant yourself and allies a bonus to AC.

Maybe you could also include themes of manipulating luck and chance so you could negate a crit on an ally and make them slip and fall instead (turning a critical attack into a miss at the cost of a spell point and your friend being knocked on their ass).


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MuddyVolcano wrote:

...oooorrr offer something like the old Wild Warden (what am I thinking of?) archetype that let you transform parts of yourself. Or something like what the current Alchemist does. Armbs, limbs, whatever!

This

MuddyVolcano wrote:

I smell scalable powers, here! Say:
Chaotic Mobility:
* Lower level: Displacement
* Mid level Option: Dimension door
* Mid level Option: Rift reality and swap places with a willing ally
* High level: Dimension door others
* High level: Open a Warp Wound inside an enemy

Willing Ally or enemy after a will save ;)

MuddyVolcano wrote:


I'm staaarting to think, let's look at the Unchained monk and draw in some inspiration. Their mobility, unusual ability to draw in ki--things like that. What do you think? Do any ideas from there strike you, or is this a dead end?

Nope looks pretty good in comparisation, of course ki is too...lawful

MuddyVolcano wrote:


What if they could develop a spellwarp breath or attack? Think the spell blights, but tied to a breath weapon or a weapon rune or warp attack.

I don't know about spell blights but spellwarp sounds good

but consider options if good or evil

good breathweapon: like fairy dragon, induces nice hallucinations, euphoria (and can probably be used to drug whole rooms full of baddies)

evil breath weapon: well, at the very least a bad trip in the worst case harmful mutations


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MuddyVolcano wrote:
Do you think there'd be room for both concepts if it was a 3/4|L6 caster style class?

Actually, yes I do now that I think about. The class would maybe need fighting styles in the same way rangers have them. One fighting style could be sword and buckler (which you could maybe turn into Cayden's rapier and mug). Another might be fighting with only a single knife with bonuses or having the class specialize in some exotic weapon of the player's choosing (so your chaotic evil trickster/CN could bust out their goofy spiked chain at level 1).

I would still envision the class using light and/or medium armor though.


MuddyVolcano wrote:
* Intimidating??: Chaotic knight type classes seem to focus more on intimidation rather than diplomacy. I guess this makes sense, if you look at chaos as the strength of the individual or their own personality. Also, looking /into/ Chaos would be damnably terrifying for many!

The other points I can somewhat agree with, this I absolutely disagree on. Intimidation would make more sense on an evil knight.

Diplomacy on the other hand makes far more sense, the confounding of words and fast talking people suits them better.

Also on the note, water also represents them fairly well, with its myriad forms that can occur at any time, and it's liquid state show their free-flowing ways, and ability to take on any shape.


Reposting my thoughts from another thread: darkness-based abilities. I always think of darkness as being a very personal, inward power. A well-lit area has what can be seen dictated from on high, both in terms of what can be seen and what is whitewashed out. You want to read something in the dark? Bring a torch, feel it out, or get a way of seeing through it, either way it's your descision.

Grand Lodge

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How about Anarchist. And a power to cause confusion. And a high level ability to make people switch bodies for a round, causing...chaos. ;-)


willuwontu wrote:
MuddyVolcano wrote:
* Intimidating??: Chaotic knight type classes seem to focus more on intimidation rather than diplomacy. I guess this makes sense, if you look at chaos as the strength of the individual or their own personality. Also, looking /into/ Chaos would be damnably terrifying for many!

The other points I can somewhat agree with, this I absolutely disagree on. Intimidation would make more sense on an evil knight.

Diplomacy on the other hand makes far more sense, the confounding of words and fast talking people suits them better.

Also on the note, water also represents them fairly well, with its myriad forms that can occur at any time, and it's liquid state show their free-flowing ways, and ability to take on any shape.

What if we gave them an either/or option, and let them choose their path?


MuddyVolcano wrote:
What if we gave them an either/or option, and let them choose their path?

Choices are the epitome of chaos, so yeah.

L'awful on the other hand she have fixed class features (removes feats from paladin, there should only be one way to play them :P), as that is the epitome of lawful.

Seriously though, choices.


willuwontu wrote:
MuddyVolcano wrote:
What if we gave them an either/or option, and let them choose their path?

Choices are the epitome of chaos, so yeah.

L'awful on the other hand she have fixed class features (removes feats from paladin, there should only be one way to play them :P), as that is the epitome of lawful.

Seriously though, choices.

I am all for choices. I'd like to keep the comments about other this or that's out of this, tho'. I mean, there's been a lot of it, you know? First goblins (oh no, chaotic murderhobos!) and then paladins, and so on. ^^;

Better to focus on the great ideas y'all have. :D


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I think ripping the Aura of Chaos from the Protean subdomain wholesale would be perfect for this class. Rerolls and generally screwing with expected outcomes is a mechanical niche that would be perfect for it's thematic niche.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
I think ripping the Aura of Chaos from the Protean subdomain wholesale would be perfect for this class. Rerolls and generally screwing with expected outcomes is a mechanical niche that would be perfect for it's thematic niche.

Hey, we could do that. :D This terrifying/forceful personality of a class NEEDs an aura when they descend upon the world.

I'd argue for that aura haveing more ingame effects later on, based on their inner force of will, you know?


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What about a Disrupt Preparation ability? It would switch around prepared spells or make the caster forget them entirely.


Malachandra wrote:
What about a Disrupt Preparation ability? It would switch around prepared spells or make the caster forget them entirely.

Oh, I like it. :D We could have that be a set of abilities they could choose, and then would build on, do you think?


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Something that would be cool, is for a chaotic knight to be able to change their weapons traits randomly during combat, maybe their sword starts flopping around and has reach all of a sudden. Their battle axe blunts and starts dealing bludgeoning, the torch their carrying crackles as it becomes electric.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Okay, I want a gnomish Chaos Knight now! Some of these ideas are awesome.

Hmm


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I'd like to pitch "Iconoclast" as potential class name.

Grand Lodge

DrunkInRlyeh wrote:
I'd like to pitch "Iconoclast" as potential class name.

An unconventional eccentric who marches to a different drummer ...


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I've taken some of the ideas from above and tossed them into a sketch, just so we can see how they are shaping up against one another.

Abilities also need better names. Right now I'm going with "boring but descriptive."

I invite y'all to edit, c/p this, adjust, and so on. It is pretty barebones right now, and that makes me sad. I know we don't know what 2e will look like, but we've got a pretty good feel for 1e, and know that 2e will offer options. Based on that, I feel confident we can firm up some sketches and ideas, that could be "put to rules" later on.

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The Iconoclast! (Aka "Chaos Knight")
Saves: Will and Fort
Primary Stats: Charisma, Dexterity?, Strength?

EARLY LEVELS SKETCH
Aura of Chaos: The Chaos Knight gains an aura of chaos through his ability to call on the primordeal. This aura will grow in strength as he continues his path, and will offer greater abilities and options at higher levels.

* Aura of Terror Option: Bonus to intimidate.
* Aura of Inspiration Option: Bonus to diplomacy.

My Form, My Will (self-healing ability): Represents the ultimate possession the Chaos Knight has over their own form and the ultimate in personal Willpower. Their body resists the influence of others even on the physical level. That includes damage. They remove any change they do not permit.

This means that self-healing for them would work sort of like regeneration. Unless someone brainstorms something, I'll go with a beefed up version of the inquisitor's for the sketch.

At the beginning, this provides a scaling fast healing effect similar to the inquisitor's judgment.

Bond Breaker: Chaos cannot be impeded. At low levels, this ability lets them apply a reactive bonus to reflex saves to avoid being trapped, grappled, and so on. At higher levels, this will reflect more Freedom of Movement-style abilities.

Warp Body (shapeshifting, defensive 'warp field' effects, etc.)
They may use their ability to rend reality both protect and transform their very essence.
* Option A: Personal displacement effect.
* Option B: Claws? Other shapeshifting?
* Option ?: What other starting, morphic abilities should they have access to?

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MID LEVELS SKETCH
Sketchy sketch sketch. Add/alter/update abilities, guys. :)

Aura of Chaos: AoC's fast healing naturally scales. However, some knights learn different powers on top of that.

* Confusion Aura Option: Focus your aura to disrupt a creature's actions.

* Disruptive Aura Option: Focus your aura to disrupt spellcasting, potentially sending that spell careening someplace else.

* Challenge Preconceptions: This option lets you focus your aura on an individual, making them doubt their convictions for a number of rounds.

* Force of Personality Option: This enhances their natural charisma and helps them sway others. Similar to Enthrall.

* Charismatic Boost Option: You inspire all allies within 30', and tilt the tide of battle. In a burst, you generate an effect that lets allies choose an ability:
** Sudden mobility
** Sudden damage to attack
** Sudden boost to spell

...your inspiration tips the tide of battle in each person's own, unique way. I mean, why give them all the same thing? That's both A. Boring, and B. Doesn't respect their individual talents.

My Form, My Will: Their fast healing continues to scale. In addition, they gain a bonus to save versus polymorph effects.

* Challenge Status Effect Option: When your aura is active, you can attempt to remove this status effect. Free action dispel-like effect? Let's see how 2e works.

* Challenge Status Effect Option 2: When you successfully remove a status effect, you may fling it at an enemy.

Bond Breaker:
Option: Remove curses.
Option: Give another creature a second save against mental control.
Option: More?

Chaotic Mobility
* Mid level Option: Dimension door
* Mid level Option: Cause a rift in reality and swap places with a willing ally. You may do this to an enemy, but they get a Will save.

Warp Body
* Option: Apply spellblight runes to a weapon (including a natural weapon gained from Body Warp; why does chaos discriminate?).
* Option: Gain a breathweapon that causes hallucinations.
* Option: Morphic abilities.
* Option: Definitely grow this list. I've barely touched on these.

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HIGH LEVELS SKETCH

Chaos Aura
* Warpwound Option: Focus your aura into a weaponized spike, injecting it into an enemy. This opens a warpwound inside of them.
* Spell Turning Aura Option: Something like a sphere of spell turning, only it extends along your aura. Send some spells careening back in a chaotic fashion. Protect your allies! This is powerful, so it would need limited in some way.

Bond Breaker: Freedom of Movement

Chaotic Mobility
* Option: Dimension Door willing allies
* Option: Teleport

My Form, My Will: They may turn their fast healing into regeneration temporarily (we'll need to look at the rules). In addition, they become immune to polymorph effects.


I'd prefer it not be called aura of chaos as it seems more like a self only ability, and aura implies it's shared with others (which could be a feat). Something like body of chaos would be a better name imo.


willuwontu wrote:
I'd prefer it not be called aura of chaos as it seems more like a self only ability, and aura implies it's shared with others (which could be a feat). Something like body of chaos would be a better name imo.

What would you prefer it be called?

Also, I know the above looks a little barebones, at the moment. To me, it's a sketch.

...with the details to be filled in by further brainstorms and awesome!


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I'd like full-plate chaos knights that ignored armor check and speed penalties because steel cannot confine them.

Also an option to have healing and damaging lay on hands like powers which temporarily sharpshooter the target. All for healing, it could give the recipient a bonus on attacks as you turn their injured arm into a gorilla replacement arm. Meanwhile a damaging touch would cause muscles to painfully shrink or make arms into awkward new forms giving a penalty.

An aura of chaos that gives all allies a bonus to feint and let's the chaos knight feint an opponent as a reaction to anyone in the aura being attacked by said foe.

A spell/litany that lets all of the chaos knight's attacks to against flat-footed for a bit as they cannot be predicted.


Paradozen wrote:

I'd like full-plate chaos knights that ignored armor check and speed penalties because steel cannot confine them.

Also an option to have healing and damaging lay on hands like powers which temporarily sharpshooter the target. All for healing, it could give the recipient a bonus on attacks as you turn their injured arm into a gorilla replacement arm. Meanwhile a damaging touch would cause muscles to painfully shrink or make arms into awkward new forms giving a penalty.

An aura of chaos that gives all allies a bonus to feint and let's the chaos knight feint an opponent as a reaction to anyone in the aura being attacked by said foe.

A spell/litany that lets all of the chaos knight's attacks to against flat-footed for a bit as they cannot be predicted.

How might you sketch some of these awesome ideas into the above chassis? I'm asking because I'd like to see how others do/see this concept working. :D

We may need to start outlining archetypes, haha! I could see a morphic focused one, that really delves into the concept of the mutable form.


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MuddyVolcano wrote:


Also, I know the above looks a little barebones, at the moment. To me, it's a sketch.

...with the details to be filled in by further brainstorms and awesome!

Some ideas:

Blessings of Chaos, Chaotic Constitution (I like the alliteration of this one), Chaotic Body, Eye of the Maelstrom, Chassis of Disruption.

I'd give more ability ideas, but I need to hit the hay. Maybe in the morning.


MuddyVolcano wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

I'd like full-plate chaos knights that ignored armor check and speed penalties because steel cannot confine them.

Also an option to have healing and damaging lay on hands like powers which temporarily sharpshooter the target. All for healing, it could give the recipient a bonus on attacks as you turn their injured arm into a gorilla replacement arm. Meanwhile a damaging touch would cause muscles to painfully shrink or make arms into awkward new forms giving a penalty.

An aura of chaos that gives all allies a bonus to feint and let's the chaos knight feint an opponent as a reaction to anyone in the aura being attacked by said foe.

A spell/litany that lets all of the chaos knight's attacks to against flat-footed for a bit as they cannot be predicted.

How might you sketch some of these awesome ideas into the above chassis? I'm asking because I'd like to see how others do/see this concept working. :D

We may need to start outlining archetypes, haha! I could see a morphic focused one, that really delves into the concept of the mutable form.

Spending a spell point as an action to make a target flat-footed would work the spell Idea in, give it the name Entropic Attacks, possibly make it a spell on full so other classes could get it.

I'd likely have an archetype that replaces My Form My Will with an option at level 1 (when PF2 Paladin gets LoH) called Entropic Restoration/Dissonance. Choose to heal or harm as much as PF2 Paladin does with a touch flavored as a very minor shapeshift power, then include buffing or debuffing options as levels increase, picking one to apply with each use. Low level options would be stuff like sickening or granting a +2 on rolls, higher level ones might involve removing actions or giving movement speeds, with choices at 3/6/9/12/15/18 or as often as Paladin gives mercies.
Exact flavor would be up to the player (a chaos knight of calistria might default to wasplike shape shifts, while cailean knights might prefer offensively intoxicating). Possibly allow both the heal and harm options but limited by less power (effective level minus 4 or some such) or making a secondary focus less efficient (1 use to heal but 2 to harm).

Aura of Chaos detailed in your sketch could be a scaling bonus to bluff checks and add a class feat for the reactive feint. Bluff I feel fits chaos better than diplomacy/intimidate anyway.

Armor would likely be covered in proficiencies, possibly adding a spell to their spells that functioned like PF1 effortless armor.

Another idea I'd like to see implemented is a high-level class feat which allowed the Chaos Knight at-will teleporting limited to 5 or 10 foot intervals, possibly with a cool down time and definitely with the ability to do so out of shackles/ropes/prisons. The idea is that they cannot be constrained by walls or ropes or angry spears. Maybe going through objects would be just as nice (similar to PF1 phantom ability phase lurch, but without ectoplasm). Maybe this as an option for Chaotic Mobility.

It is hard to say how or when to include these powers until the full game comes out though. I'd likely say using the PF2 Paladin as a guideline for how much healing/damage a touch attack that scales should do, along with how easy it is to add riders, simply because game math will already assume PCs can do these things (in a different way). Also, I think Chaos Knight, were an official company to create one, would be best served with a wide variety of class feats and/or spell options. The idea that no two are alike represented by a huge variety in viable styles.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Effortless armor is a spell in PF1 that's pretty cool for armor.

What if this proposed class got it as a class feature, with it becoming more effective as the character gains levels?

It wouldn't be quite analogous to PF1 Armor Training for a Fighter, but it'd be close?


Paradozen wrote:
Some cool stuff.

I am seeing a lot of suggestions and support for Dimension Door/limited teleport style abilities. It sounds like they'd very much need to be part of the core class.

An archetype might build on that, but some of it should for sure be core.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

Because hope springs eternal, I would like the CG Paladin to be able to eventually trick Death itself and come back, though a custom Reincarnate (including in a NPC body) might make more sense than Resurrection

You can kill our bodies but our spirit lives on

Ami, si tu tombes,
Un ami sort de l'ombre
A ta place

Friend, should you fall,
From obscurity comes another friend
Who takes up the fight


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I like the idea of the Chaos Knight reincarnating to cheat death.

I think it should come with a random teleport as well though.


Hey, guys. After reading through some of the Code threads, I'm...having a really hard time discerning how Law and Chaos are different in actual play. Most of it seems to come down to something OOC that a person does or doesn't like.

I'm...hitting the brakes on this for now, and will be sitting back and watching the discussions and how views shape.

I realize I'm an older gamer, and with that comes certain expectations, and certain traditions. I just did not expect things to change so much. ^^;

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