Keep your chin up, Paizo.


Prerelease Discussion

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After reading through some of the Paladin threads, I can only shake my head and recognize the long uphill battle Paizo faces. I have to believe the it's only going to get harder. In fact, when I think of all the details that have to be addressed and all the potential gotcha's and oversights, I feel like I need to go lay down and pull the covers over my head.

I imagine it doesn't help to know that you can't make the perfect game. Nor can you make everyone happy. You can't even make everyone on the forums happy, despite them telling you how to do it. But, as the cliche goes, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. So I hope everyone at Paizo embraces the challenge. The greater the obstacle, the more insurmountable it seems, the more character and commitment you will have displayed in overcoming it.

Believe in yourselves. Believe you have the skill, talent, conviction and passion to see this through. Believe in your judgment of when to listen to others and when to follow your intuition. And while I don't know if I'll prefer 2e over 1e, make the game that you want to play, first and foremost, and trust that others will too. This is truly art, and not science.

To all at Paizo involved in 2e, including the moderators, keep your chin up.


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yep!
I may or may not end up liking whatever comes out, but I'm sure it won't mean it's either good or bad, just that I like it or not. I've loved lot of things you've all done, mainly the Golarion Setting, that is almost everything I wanted to do when I created my first world in AD&D 2e, but that I couldn't. Golarion will now always be my "base" fantasy world, no matter what happens.

Also, From what I saw, pretty sure I'll love PF2, and the parts I won't, it'll probably be easy to homebrew. Can't wait to participate in the playtest! ^_^


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You guys are so awesome! Go designers! Yay!

Liberty's Edge

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Agreed. You guys are awesome, don't worry about internet rage too much.


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I am looking forward to the game quite a bit. Even if it is not everything I want, I always like having a new system for my collection.


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I've been critical (more lately), but overall, I'm very excited for PF2. And 95% of what I've seen so far looks awesome.

Talking about this elsewhere during the week, somebody asked me "Why not switch to this other game?" I gave my usual answer about lack of PDF support for that game. And then I gave it some more thought later in the day. I went back to edit the response. I stay because of Paizo. Pathfinder wouldn't likely be my first choice. Fantasy isn't my first choice when it comes to gaming. But somehow, it ends up being my first choice for the last five or so years and for the forseeable future. That's entirely because of the quality of the product and the overall progressive community mindset from the company.

You made a fan out of a person who, by all rights, wouldn't be. Not ONLY because of the material, your own setting, or solid APs. It's because of what Paizo has built for itself, as a community and a brand.


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Indeed. I still have my first edition play test book on my gaming shelf. After the goblin thread I was concerned there were going to be changes both to be different and to appease the masses. At the time there were statements about a desire be true to the setting you created. I am fully convinced that that is the heading you have set and applaud you for sticking to it. You're going to have some difficult days ahead but regardless of a decision being popular or not, you have a loyal family here to support you.


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I've been playing Pathfinder for five years. It is my favorite game ever. Not just role-playing game, though it is that too. I've played and enjoyed other games but always want to come back to Pathfinder. But it has also supplanted video games, too.

I am super stoked for PF2. Not only are they making a lot of changes that I think will make the game more fun for me, but they are making it look a lot easier for new players to learn. I don't get to play PF1 very often because none of my friends want prefer it and won't DM it. And frankly, I can't blame them.

This game means a lot to me, but I have a lot of faith in the people who make it. I also really appreciate certain parts of the fan base. The progressive, inclusive folks. I don't think PF1 is perfect, and PF2 won't be either. But man oh man, I think it will pretty good.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Well said. Keep on truckin’ golem!


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Honestly, each, single decision. might tick someone off.

There is no perfect game for everyone, every call wont be loved by everyone...

Paladin is the latest of these, but really, every single blog post had people disagree with something, the goblin one had lots of backlash too, the alchemist one had people who wanted other classes instead...

Some will be happy sometimes, some will be happy others, the system isnt tailored from the get go for every little thing to be the best possible for each and every person, that is literally impossible. Sometimes certain people want A, others want B and to pick either means one side is not getting what they want.

Making the best system they can with years and years of experience should result in a system good enough that even with what each person lost, there is still enough here to make them want to play the game.

Eventually the play test will be over and the dust will be settled, just gotta keep moving foward.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

well the good news is...I think with goblins and paladins out of the way, and at least the major mechanical changes somewhat introduced (Resonance, proficiency skill system, actions), most or all of the major grenades have been lobbed?

Although I could just be super naive here...


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MMCJawa wrote:

well the good news is...I think with goblins and paladins out of the way, and at least the major mechanical changes somewhat introduced (Resonance, proficiency skill system, actions), most or all of the major grenades have been lobbed?

Although I could just be super naive here...

Yeah your being naive their gonna preview that wizard and then we will get to hear about C/MD a whole bunch then they will preview monk and we will get to hear about MAD and SAD characters a whole bunch. Their is in fact no winning... At least until I get world shaking super powers the all will PAY!


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MMCJawa wrote:

well the good news is...I think with goblins and paladins out of the way, and at least the major mechanical changes somewhat introduced (Resonance, proficiency skill system, actions), most or all of the major grenades have been lobbed?

Although I could just be super naive here...

Monks could potentially flare up the alignment discussion a second time if they end up being Lawful only again. I'm sure the caster players will be whining about their nerfs every time one of their class blogs shows up, lol.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Arachnofiend wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:

well the good news is...I think with goblins and paladins out of the way, and at least the major mechanical changes somewhat introduced (Resonance, proficiency skill system, actions), most or all of the major grenades have been lobbed?

Although I could just be super naive here...

Monks could potentially flare up the alignment discussion a second time if they end up being Lawful only again.

From what I have seen of most class blogs, other than exceptions like the paladin, they start with both positive and negative feedback from people who are avid followers of the PF2 blogs with various opinions and go along well with some good discourse for a time, but then eventually the people who don't like the blog content are the only ones still posting while most others have moved on. I don't see that really changing for the other classes, so I think every class is eventually going to get some grar.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really hope they don't chain monks to that outdated and archaic concept, and allow all the different schools of wisdom to flourish.

But then again, my PFS-1 follower of Irori (not a monk, but Irori if anyone would be the 'monk-god') would argue that being Lawful blinds one to Growth and Enlightenment, being a firm believer in Balance.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:

well the good news is...I think with goblins and paladins out of the way, and at least the major mechanical changes somewhat introduced (Resonance, proficiency skill system, actions), most or all of the major grenades have been lobbed?

Although I could just be super naive here...

Monks could potentially flare up the alignment discussion a second time if they end up being Lawful only again. I'm sure the caster players will be whining about their nerfs every time one of their class blogs shows up, lol.

I really dislike the paladin restriction, but I can live with it. For me, the drop of the monk restriction is the really important one. That one I hope is gone for good.


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Any restriction that makes one of the most iconic fictional characters of the archetype not a legal choice is an insane restriction.

Sun Wukong can't be a Monk in Pathfinder. Just let that sink in.


Also, thinks like Drunken Master "only lawful"...no words needed.

Edit: To not be too negative on a theme like that, I totally agree with OP. While I would like to open Paladin, on this, like other thinks, pleasing everyone is a true quadratic cercle; seems imposible. While I can not agree with all decisions, people at Paizo has all my respect.


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Folks (like me) have been ignoring Alignment and Paladin Codes for decades. Those little and unimportant issues aren't the kind of thing to keep me from choosing PF2e. I'm much more likely to base that decision on things like how well I get along with the skill system, class abilities, the rate and extent by which characters outclass the common man, and generally how well the system supports what I'm trying to accomplish.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Whatever time this is for you guys right now (11:38 for me), I usually get off work roughly 4.5-5 hours ago. But I'm a paizo messageboarder for life, since before working here, so I'm often found around here long past the time when I probably should be.

Just wanted to throw this up there, because it's awesome. Thanks Mark! And thanks Paizo! I really appreciate how communicative you all are, it makes me feel a part of the process.


They made their decision to dump PF1. They can roll with it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The stuff we've been seeing on the blog is GREAT and I can't wait to see more. I'm eagerly looking forward to geting my hands on the playtest books this August, and plan to start a PF2.0 campaign in a sleepy village in central Varisia as soon as possible after that.

I'm also eager to see the upcoming Sandpoint book, IIRC it's slated for October or so.

Sometimes all the negative comments on this board are hard to bear, and I find myself posting less and less. But my enthusiasm for PF2.0 continues unabated, and I can't wait to bring some playtest fun to my friends here in France.

Go Mark! And go playtest team!

Jon Brazer Enterprises

What everyone else has said. Be proud of what you have accomplished thus far and know you will accomplish great things still. Don't let the haters get you down.


Its not so much negative feedback as it is the, "i'm objectively correct" when talking about preferences and opinions that gets a bit much around here. Though I think Paizo takes it in stride and is a class act.

Keep y'all chins up Paizo folks!


I’d like to add in my love and support for Paizo along with the others in this thread.

I believe that as long as we provide good feedback for them to tweak a few things, PF2 will be a great game possibly even better than PF1. Which says a lot because PF1 is currently my favorite TTRPG! : )


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I'M commander Gustavo, and this is my favorite thread on the Citadel


gustavo iglesias wrote:
I'M commander Gustavo, and this is my favorite thread on the Citadel

Can I have your autograph?


My concern is that they will not really take into account what people are saying about mechanics and other things that may or may not work. In the past, how successful have Play Tests been or is this a case of we will make money off this but we are still going to do what I want?


Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
My concern is that they will not really take into account what people are saying about mechanics and other things that may or may not work. In the past, how successful have Play Tests been or is this a case of we will make money off this but we are still going to do what I want?

I like to use the example of the Occultist for this; in the playtest, the Occultist was... well, it was trash. A bare bones class with hardly any useful abilities that wasn't able to do anything well. People (myself included) naturally railed against it because it sucked for such a great concept to be ruined by such a poor execution.

And it felt like we were getting radio silence because the developer in charge of the Occultist-I wanna say Owen Stephens but I'm not sure- wasn't very active on the forums (certainly in comparison to Mark Seifter). When the final version of the Occultist came out those impressions were proven to be pretty much entirely incorrect; there were changes and additions that had been specifically given support by forum-going playtesters and in my opinion the final product ended up being one of the best classes Paizo has ever put out. The developer hadn't been communicating directly very much, but he certainly had been listening, and put the playtest feedback into account to make something wonderful.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
My concern is that they will not really take into account what people are saying about mechanics and other things that may or may not work. In the past, how successful have Play Tests been or is this a case of we will make money off this but we are still going to do what I want?

I like to use the example of the Occultist for this; in the playtest, the Occultist was... well, it was trash. A bare bones class with hardly any useful abilities that wasn't able to do anything well. People (myself included) naturally railed against it because it sucked for such a great concept to be ruined by such a poor execution.

And it felt like we were getting radio silence because the developer in charge of the Occultist-I wanna say Owen Stephens but I'm not sure- wasn't very active on the forums (certainly in comparison to Mark Seifter). When the final version of the Occultist came out those impressions were proven to be pretty much entirely incorrect; there were changes and additions that had been specifically given support by forum-going playtesters and in my opinion the final product ended up being one of the best classes Paizo has ever put out. The developer hadn't been communicating directly very much, but he certainly had been listening, and put the playtest feedback into account to make something wonderful.

It was Jason, not Owen. He did enlist Logan and me to help a little bit on the occultist in particular, but this situation is classic Jason: when you have Jason as your design team point of contact for something in the playtest, you need to take the pros and cons of having the Director of Game Design for the entire company as your point of contact. The pros: When he finds time to go through all the posts, he is going to perform insightful analysis and make solid changes. The cons: He is the director of game design, so "when he finds time to go through all the posts" is probably not going to be right away, and may not be until after the playtest period is over.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I support Paizo and their choice to launch PF2.
They should keep an eye on the boards for feedback but always remember the people who psot their opinions here are just a small minority of their fanbase. In reality very few people will choose to abandon PF2 because Paizo doesn't do what they want about alignment or the paladin or whatever. Just concentrate on creating a great and fun game, ballanced and playable from lvl1 to 20. Some people will keep grumbling about alignment and yet continue buying your products!

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:
It was Jason, not Owen. He did enlist Logan and me to help a little bit on the occultist in particular, but this situation is classic Jason: when you have Jason as your design team point of contact for something in the playtest, you need to take the pros and cons of having the Director of Game Design for the entire company as your point of contact. The pros: When he finds time to go through all the posts, he is going to perform insightful analysis and make solid changes. The cons: He is the director of game design, so "when he finds time to go through all the posts" is probably not going to be right away, and may not be until after the playtest period is over.

This is great, Mark. Always appreciate the "look behind the curtain" that helps us understand what goes into what we're seeing from our end.

I know there are plans for regular recaps from the designers on the playtest (blogs, twitch, etc). That's great! I've been enjoying the podcasts, interviews, presentations, and blogs so far. So I'm really looking forward to that

But this post does raise a question for me, though, one that I'm hoping y'all might address before the playtest: Can you share which designer is/will be the primary "point of contact" for each class? Or rules systems other than classes?

I know for me at least this info would help with expectation-setting regarding forum engagement etc.

(To be clear, I would not be surprised if you can't answer that yet. But it is something I'm interested in if you can talk about it at some point.)

Paizo Employee Designer

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Joe M. wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It was Jason, not Owen. He did enlist Logan and me to help a little bit on the occultist in particular, but this situation is classic Jason: when you have Jason as your design team point of contact for something in the playtest, you need to take the pros and cons of having the Director of Game Design for the entire company as your point of contact. The pros: When he finds time to go through all the posts, he is going to perform insightful analysis and make solid changes. The cons: He is the director of game design, so "when he finds time to go through all the posts" is probably not going to be right away, and may not be until after the playtest period is over.

This is great, Mark. Always appreciate the "look behind the curtain" that helps us understand what goes into what we're seeing from our end.

I know there are plans for regular recaps from the designers on the playtest (blogs, twitch, etc). That's great! I've been enjoying the podcasts, interviews, presentations, and blogs so far. So I'm really looking forward to that

But this post does raise a question for me, though, one that I'm hoping y'all might address before the playtest: Can you share which designer is/will be the primary "point of contact" for each class? Or rules systems other than classes?

I know for me at least this info would help with expectation-setting regarding forum engagement etc.

(To be clear, I would not be surprised if you can't answer that yet. But it is something I'm interested in if you can talk about it at some point.)

No clue. It wouldn't even shock me if it was more of an amalgam this time around, as there are no classes that didn't have significant work from at least two designers on them, quite a few with significant work from three, and several that had significant work from all four.


Mark,

can you talk at all about how Paizo will process (methodology) playtest data? Are there things you are doing different from last time? Are there specific techniques/tools? Do you guys spend sessions specifically on figuring out how to extract information from data when it comes to this play test?

The whole thing seems a little overwhelming, so I'm curious how you guys are preparing for it.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It was Jason, not Owen. He did enlist Logan and me to help a little bit on the occultist in particular, but this situation is classic Jason: when you have Jason as your design team point of contact for something in the playtest, you need to take the pros and cons of having the Director of Game Design for the entire company as your point of contact. The pros: When he finds time to go through all the posts, he is going to perform insightful analysis and make solid changes. The cons: He is the director of game design, so "when he finds time to go through all the posts" is probably not going to be right away, and may not be until after the playtest period is over.

This is great, Mark. Always appreciate the "look behind the curtain" that helps us understand what goes into what we're seeing from our end.

I know there are plans for regular recaps from the designers on the playtest (blogs, twitch, etc). That's great! I've been enjoying the podcasts, interviews, presentations, and blogs so far. So I'm really looking forward to that

But this post does raise a question for me, though, one that I'm hoping y'all might address before the playtest: Can you share which designer is/will be the primary "point of contact" for each class? Or rules systems other than classes?

I know for me at least this info would help with expectation-setting regarding forum engagement etc.

(To be clear, I would not be surprised if you can't answer that yet. But it is something I'm interested in if you can talk about it at some point.)

No clue. It wouldn't even shock me if it was more of an amalgam this time around, as there are no classes that didn't have significant work from at least two designers on them, quite a few with significant work from three, and several that had significant work from all four.

I don't care for name, and will just set my expectations on low so that I'm pleasantly amazed not only when you interact with us but all four of you.

BTW, to be more on topic: Thank you a lot for all the openness you show us. This will be my first playtest, and I can't wait to start!


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mark, thank you for the insight you continue to bring to these threads, and for your patience in walking us through the process.

Likewise huge thanks to the remainder of the development team -- this project is a beast even looking at the tip of the iceberg of it, and the fact that this much work has been done in such a short time tells us that there is a love for a game and a desire to see it made Better.


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It makes me sad that even these threads have negativity leaking into them. Like, you should be able to express your concerns for the new system and discontent with the old system, but pick a time and place, you know?


Mark is awesome. However, he is a Paizoan, so it's a given he is awesome.

Scarab Sages

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Captain Morgan wrote:
It makes me sad that even these threads have negativity leaking into them. Like, you should be able to express your concerns for the new system and discontent with the old system, but pick a time and place, you know?

Agreed. There are several other threads where one can express their hopes, fears, dislikes, and likes without contaminating a thread like this with those posts.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Mark, thank you for the insight you continue to bring to these threads, and for your patience in walking us through the process.

Likewise huge thanks to the remainder of the development team -- this project is a beast even looking at the tip of the iceberg of it, and the fact that this much work has been done in such a short time tells us that there is a love for a game and a desire to see it made Better.

You're most certainly welcome! And now I'm actually curious from the last bit, how much time were you figuring we spent on it?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
You're most certainly welcome! And now I'm actually curious from the last bit, how much time were you figuring we spent on it?

I've said it elsewhere, but I'm assuming the ball started rolling at least when Unchained was being written (one of my favorite PF books, btw). The mechanics that have been moved forward to PF2 are somewhat obvious, but I see other touches here and there. Occultist resonance. Some of the ideas expanded on in the Advanced Class Guide. I look at the Vigilante, I look at how classes work in PF2, and it's hard not hard for hindsight to see it as not a PF1 class at all, but the first iteration of the new.

So...at least 3 years? Maybe longer?

Edit: In the spirit of the thread, I really am grateful at how open you and the others have been about your thinking behind your decisions. I don't (and won't) always agree, but knowing why you made the decision you did at least puts it into context.


I really like the direction that PFe2 is heading. There are many problems with PFe1, and a lot of the changes revealed so far go a long way to addressing them but still keeping the core feel of Pathfinder.

It is impossible to please everybody all of the time, and I am sure that Paizo know this. I spend more time than I should on these forums, because I really want to contribute to improving the next version of Pathfinder. However, sometimes it is dismaying to see the amount of negativity that is here. I think that a lot of it comes from people's passion for the game and fear that they will lose something. I think a lot of people fear another D&D 4th Ed. This is understandable. I think a great deal of us play Pathfinder because of how greatly 4th Ed failed us.

I do not have this fear. I think Paizo has earned my trust with all of the hard work and dedication to making great products. They understand their system, they understand roleplaying and the huge amount of variation in the ways their customers use their system.

To all of the people at Paizo I would like to say that I really appreciate the risk that you are taking on developing a new system, and all of the time, effort and hard work it takes to do so. It can be hard slog at times, but I think it will be worth it.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
You're most certainly welcome! And now I'm actually curious from the last bit, how much time were you figuring we spent on it?

I've said it elsewhere, but I'm assuming the ball started rolling at least when Unchained was being written (one of my favorite PF books, btw). The mechanics that have been moved forward to PF2 are somewhat obvious, but I see other touches here and there. Occultist resonance. Some of the ideas expanded on in the Advanced Class Guide. I look at the Vigilante, I look at how classes work in PF2, and it's hard not hard for hindsight to see it as not a PF1 class at all, but the first iteration of the new.

So...at least 3 years? Maybe longer?

I think his question is not how long, but how much time. Like, how many man-hours of design.

3 years with one guy doing 1 hour per week is not the same than 3 years with 5 guys doing 40 hours per week.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
gustavo iglesias wrote:

I think his question is not how long, but how much time. Like, how many man-hours of design.

3 years with one guy doing 1 hour per week is not the same than 3 years with 5 guys doing 40 hours per week.

And then when you add in all the work being done by staff who aren't "men" or "guys", you get a really really big number. ;-)


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I think somebody said that PF2 has been happening gradually for a long time, because the various Paizo staff pretty much all have their own house rules. At a certain point, it became clear that they had enough house rules that they really liked to publish Unchained, and then eventually crossed a threshold where it seemed time for an entirely new edition.

And to me, that's a pretty encouraging way for a new edition to develop. It says it is being done by people who love the old game, but have been thinking critically about where it could be better for a long time.


Well, I'm actually loving Pathfinder 2 so far. It seems that this game will provide an experience that I couldn't find so far, and the devs seem to really like the game.

I personally am not a man of deal-breakers. I guess everything is a check or an x, some are bigger than others, but in the end, it's the whole that counts. And this seems to be going on a good path.

I wish best of wisdom for Paizo's staff in this journey ^^


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
You're most certainly welcome! And now I'm actually curious from the last bit, how much time were you figuring we spent on it?

Mark, I'm concerned that you're too helpful on the forums. If you keep providing useful insights, it will disappoint those that want to speculate about the designers' motives. Not just motives, but clarifications on the rules, too. You're taking away the fun of learning. In a few months, people will have the playtest rules, and they won't even enjoy reading them because they will have already learned everything about the playtest by reading the blogs and all of your posts. On top of that, you and the rest of the staff are consistently friendly and good-natured, and everyone knows that conflict is the very soul of a good story. How can there be heroes of the great flame wars when you work to de-escalate every issue with understanding and reason?

In all seriousness, thanks for being awesome generally. I read every post you make, because they're all worth reading. I know that just trying to keep up a little with the announcements and people's reactions to them takes me a few hours a week that I really don't have. Your replies are also a good indicator of other users' threads or insightful comments worth reading that I would never have looked at. I do the same for a few other staffers right now, but for sheer volume of fresh playtest insights, you're definitely the guy to follow.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A quotable quote today:
From the Twitter feed of the showrunner of Witcher 3, who was dealing with a lot of online 'feedback' from people after she posted an image of the writers' room.

Quote:

Hissrich seems to be aware that no matter what she does, there will people who aren’t satisfied, but she also doesn’t appear to be too bothered about that.

“I’m okay with you living out your life, and me living out mine,” she wrote about one fan who sent her a random insult. “Because mine involves writing my favorite tv show, and interacting with fans who—even if they have questions or concerns—don’t need to degrade or disparage others to express them. These are the people I want to win, and keep.”


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:


You're most certainly welcome! And now I'm actually curious from the last bit, how much time were you figuring we spent on it?

If we drew directly from the release of Starfinder as a guideline, the minimum amount of time would have been 15 months from announcement to release.

However, there are a lot of hints that have been dropped that development on this has been going on in some way, shape, or form since PF1 dropped, perhaps not full-bore, perhaps only one or two people working on a couple of side aspects.

In addition, the presence of some Unchained systems would indicate that while some of that may have been active unanounced playtest the idea was at least reaching prominence at that point.

If I was going to spitball it, I'd say that the conceptual ideas have been in the works since probably about 2014, with more framework being added around 2016, and mechanics/design added in the last couple of years to the point where there was a printable product.

Like I said, this thing just seeing the tip of it is a beast.

The sheer amount of discussion that had to happen internally to get things to a point that a design team would be happy with it is no small bit.

What is equally impressive is the D-Day level of OpSec surrounding this after years of clamoring for a PF2.

Is that even remotely close to the numbers and considerations, Mark?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:


You're most certainly welcome! And now I'm actually curious from the last bit, how much time were you figuring we spent on it?

If we drew directly from the release of Starfinder as a guideline, the minimum amount of time would have been 15 months from announcement to release.

However, there are a lot of hints that have been dropped that development on this has been going on in some way, shape, or form since PF1 dropped, perhaps not full-bore, perhaps only one or two people working on a couple of side aspects.

In addition, the presence of some Unchained systems would indicate that while some of that may have been active unanounced playtest the idea was at least reaching prominence at that point.

If I was going to spitball it, I'd say that the conceptual ideas have been in the works since probably about 2014, with more framework being added around 2016, and mechanics/design added in the last couple of years to the point where there was a printable product.

Like I said, this thing just seeing the tip of it is a beast.

The sheer amount of discussion that had to happen internally to get things to a point that a design team would be happy with it is no small bit.

What is equally impressive is the D-Day level of OpSec surrounding this after years of clamoring for a PF2.

Is that even remotely close to the numbers and considerations, Mark?

That is pretty solid analysis that is fairly close (and others in between my post and yours have pointed out some other good indicators in the intervening books, like the kineticist and vigilante design of "Give more options but in different buckets so you don't feel you have to take the combat thing every time").

I am blown away by the OpSec, truly flabbergasted by the amazing job that every single person at Paizo, and the few licensed partners who knew, did at keeping a lid on this. I don't think anyone in the company actually in their heart of hearts was convinced it wouldn't leak before the announcement, or even just be guessed based on the variables. Our saving grace, I suppose, was that people cried wolf about PF2 for almost eight years, and that attempting to create Starfinder and then PF2 playtest back to back like this seemed really infeasible of an idea to attempt (turns out, that's true, but we did it anyway!)

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