How would your Wizard 20 mess up this dedicated mage-killer?


Advice


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Hi chaps,

As the title says, how would your favorite Wizard 20 build mess up this warrior?

Situation: duel in an empty flat desert, start 100 ft apart, no one pre-buffs

Fluffy

CE human Unchained monk 1, Titan fighter 1, Antipaladin 2, Savage urban barbarian 16
Init: +14

Defense
AC: 56, touch 50, flat-footed 56 (all +14 vs target of smite)
HP: 245
Fort: +44, Ref: +42, Will: +39, (vs spells/supernatural abilities: Fort: +56, Ref: +54, Will: +51)
Defensive abilities: uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, freedom of movement, superstition, internal fortitude, strength surge (1/rage immediate action to add barb levels to CMD), eater of magic (1/rage reroll failed saves vs magic), flesh wound (1/rage fort save to reduce damage), ultimate clarity (1/rage see through darkness, blur, invisibility, etc); immune: sickened, nauseated (for at-will rage cycling).

Offense
Speed: 30ft, fly 60ft (good)
Melee: +5 Agile and Impact Gargantuan bastard sword; +42 to-hit, 209 Vital strike damage (and +54 to-hit, 211 damage vs target of smite).
Reach: 10ft
Offensive abilities: Surprise accuracy (already included above, swift action for +5 to-hit 1/rage), Greater elemental blood (fly speed, constant while raging), fueled by vengeance (recover uses of rage, constant while raging). Rage uses/day: 40

Statistics
Str 9, Dex 34, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 26, Cha 38
Base attack: +20, CMD: 47 (61 vs target of smite, and +16 1/rage)
Feats (10 +1 monk): Vital strike, imp vital strike, greater vital strike, furious finish, extra rage power x3, toughness, EWP (bastard sword), Deific obedience (Calastria, Cha to touch AC), dodge.
Skills: Fly +35, Perception +26, Acrobatics +35, Sense motive +26, and XYZ pre-req skills
Languages: common

Traits:
Reactionary, fate’s favored, giant blooded

Items (880k to spend)
+5 tomes x2 137.5 k x2
+4 tome x1 110k
+6 int wis cha item 144k
+6 dex item 36k
Ring of FoM 40k
Ring of evasion 25k
+5 Cloak of resistance 25k
Ioun, pale green prism 30k
Ioun, pale green prism, flawed 28k
Ioun, dusty rose 5k
Ioun, Scarlet and green, flawed 10k
Luckstone 20k
+8 effective weapon 130k
Total: 878k

2k left and we should prob rejig to find a way to wear some boots of not being stuck inside a forcecage, 49k. I’d prob give up one of the more expensive iouns. Anyway, there it is for now.

Concept:

Nothing fancy really, Fluffy just wants sky high touch AC and saves so he can fly around roaring and vital-striking for as long as possible.


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With foreknowledge there is very little a wizard cannot deal with, one way or the other.

For starteres, Fluffy has no means to find or travel to Wizards real, physical location.

Fluffy is also not immortal.

My wizard conducts business as normal via Astral Projection, ignoring Fluffy until he dies of old age. He'll show up at Fluffy's memorial service, if he remembers. Perhaps, he'll "investigate" Fluffy's tomb afterwards to recover anything of value that was left behind.


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Seeing that you have no spell resistance, the best option would be to hit you with spells that do not allow for a saving throw. Therefore, winning initiative is important, and then hitting you with the Maze spell. That buys a few turns (with the additional use of timestop) to drop a force cage around where you would reappear, as well as Summoning a few nasties for you to deal with with the Gate spell.

Pathfinder is a team game, though, and probably shouldn’t focus on PvP.


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Do note that Furious Finish specifies you are fatigued even if you would not normally be, so the ioun stone does not render you immune to it. I also don't see where you're getting the immunity to sickened and nauseated from.

As for tactics, well I'll be fair and say the first round would be quickened dazing fireball then dimension door 1100 feet away (total distance now 1200ft). Next round or two would be chucking various flavors of fireball and then realizing that this maniac running at me is basically immune. Finally, give up and teleport to my private island/airship and kick back with a smoothie. Because sometimes the only winning move is not to play.

wizard details:

built using the classic "blockbuster wizard" build
evocation[admixture] school
magical lineage and spell specialization on fireball
greater spell specialization for spontaneous fireballs
spell perfection for extra metamagic
both fireball and dimension door have long range, so at cl20th as the exercise assumes that's 400+(20x40)=1200ft
every dimension door I use means Fluffy has to spend 5 rounds using the run action (60ft fly speed x4 = 240. 1200/240=5) just to catch up
I'm only accounting for one prepared dimension door as 4th level spells have a LOT of goodies to choose from


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I'm not gonna write a full build, but the basic part is Tiefling Wizard, Foresight specialization. We'll assume the wizard wins initiative, due to having a +24 initiative before any items (Improved Initiative, Reactionary, +4 DEX, Greensting Scorpion, Forewarned). Wiz leads with Time Stop to do whatever he wants, in this case, a Prismatic Sphere around Fluffy, Maze, Cloudkill inside the sphere, Haste himself (Quickened via Spell Perfection, if necessary). And that's just off the top of my head. Wiz then casts Greater Invisibility and Fly while Fluffy is stuck in the Maze, ready to wreck his day with Intensified Dazing Fireballs (Sacred Geometry) and other such nasties. Regardless of how high your saves are, a natural 1 is still a failure, so Wiz can likely make something stick eventually, like Baleful Polymorph. Or he can summon an Astral Deva if he feels like it.

The moral of the story: don't screw with wizards. They're the most powerful class in the game for a reason.


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One thing I just realized is that a readied-action gate spell could send Fluffy to any horrible plane of the caster's choice with no save or need for a touch attack.


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Ring of Invisibility + Mindblank. You will literally never find me good sir.

I suppose I could ruin your life. Make everything in the multiverse want you dead, alter the laws of physics to make your abilities worthless, and remove your afterlife. But why would I? There is no threat


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Put a portable hole on the ground, use anti-magic field, let you fly over it (flying fails) and fall into the hole. Discard the hole in a treasure box on another plane.


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Hi chaps,

thanks for your comments! I'll do my best to answer as much as I can =)

First of all, Fluffy of course has no way to force the wizard to fight. Wizard 20 is just better than any warrior, no question. Part of the premise here, though, is that it's a duel. The wizard could not show up or run away, but he would then lose competition. I know that ruffles some feathers, because it's contrived, but I'm only interested here in finding out if he could survive straight-forward combat.

As a general note for everyone: I have no teleport on fluffy atm, and can't deal with forcecages except for chopping a hole in them, but I'm aware of this problem (see above). I'd welcome your thoughts on what could be chucked to make room for boots of teleportation, or similar.

DeathlessOne > I assumed my opponent wouldn't be worried about CR so I didn't invest in it. Do you think it could be a feasible means of defence? No-save spells are surely problematic, but most require a touch attack. Which spells would you chuck at fluffy that don't require either? Lastly, What monsters would you summon to help you? I don't know the list very well, but I reckon fluffy could chop through most of the CR20 monsters in the bestiary pretty easily.

Darigaaz > repeated use of furious focus is achieved by combining scarlet and green cabochon and the internal fortitude rage power: fatigued comes in, gets turned into sickened, we are immune to sickened. I'm new to pathfinder, but going by this post (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p0f8?Rage-cycling-in-PFS) it seems to held as acceptable (esp Lab_rat's comments/references to earlier post). To your second point, as above Fluffy can't stop you leaving, but dueling is part of the premise. Lastly, readied-action gate sounds really brutal. Does the spell force the person to be transported without a save? I thought unwilling travellers had to be bull-rushed in or something.

Etob> prismatic sphere + maze +cloukill sounds brutal. Could you exaplin a bit more about how that interaction works? Are people affected by cloukill while inside the maze? As before, I plan to put boots of teleport on Fluffy to negate some of the means of trapping him. As for saves/invis, as long as he has rage uses left, natural ones and invis shouldn't be an issue thanks to the eater of magic and ultimate clarity (reroll failed saves vs magic and see invis/blur/darkness/ etc) rage powers. Could you talk me through the astral deva? If the idea is to use the stun ability, it's only going to live one round if it closes to engage in melee ;)

Dastis> fluffy can see invis and mindblank has will save negates and we should pass the save. The wizard can leave the fight, yep, but it's part of the premise that he doesn't.

general point: eater of magic is crazy good. In the saving throw department, as long as we have uses of rage left we should only worried about seeing snake eyes in a single round, aka 1/400 chance of failure.

"Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affected by the spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability and gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the effect’s caster level (in the case of spell or spell-like abilities) or the CR of the effect’s creator (in the case of supernatural abilities)..."


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I think you'll appreciate this, considering your previous thread.

lv 20 Diviner Wizard (Foresight), Lawful Good, whatever race:
Feats:
Combat Expertise
Improved Feint
Weapon Finesse

Arcane Discovery:
Knowledge is Power (Int to CMB/CMD)

Trait:
Clever Wordplay (Int on Bluff checks)
Bluff total bonus: 37
20 + 12 (Int mod) +5 (Magic Item)

Magic Items:
Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone (Proficiency with Tekko-Kagi)
Tekko-Kagi +3, Dueling, Dueling (PSFG)
Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuvers
Mask of Stony Demeanor
Lesser Metamagic Rod, Quicken

And the typical ability score increase items

Disarm CMB: 43 (45 vs Swords)
10 (BAB) + 12 (Int mod) + 6? (Dex mod) + 2/4 (Tekko-Kagi) +3 (Enhancement bonus) +2 (Dueling) +6 (Dueling (PDSFG) +2 (Gauntlets)

Feint Bonus: 39 (Fluffy's Feint DC is 36)

Spells Prepared:
True Strike

**********************

So Fluffy's CMD is pretty high, especially against good targets. In an optimal situation, I count that to be 91 (since you add the Deific Obedience bonus to CMD).
How about when you've been feinted? Dexterity and Deific Obedience disappears, dropping that CMD down to 65.

Quickened True Strike on a Tekko-Kagi Disarm attempt would give my wizard a +65 CMB to disarm Fluffy. And it doesn't seem as if you're carrying a backup weapon.

So yeah, no character is invulnerable. Although Fluffy would probably dominate in most games, it's very easy to build a counter when you have all the stats.


William H wrote:
Etob> prismatic sphere + maze +cloukill sounds brutal. Could you exaplin a bit more about how that interaction works? Are people affected by cloukill while inside the maze? As before, I plan to put boots of teleport on Fluffy to negate some of the means of trapping him. As for saves/invis, as long as he has rage uses left, natural ones and invis shouldn't be an issue thanks to the eater of magic and ultimate clarity (reroll failed saves vs magic and see invis/blur/darkness/ etc) rage powers. Could you talk me through the astral deva? If the idea is to use the stun ability, it's only going to live one round if it closes to engage in melee ;)

Boots of teleport would negate the Prismatic Sphere strategy. The idea with Cloudkill is to set it up so it's there when Fluffy returns from the Maze, it wouldn't affect him while he's in the Maze. Astral Deva was just a random example of a summoned creature, not much thought was put into it. I didn't even think of that readied Gate strategy someone else suggested, not many ways around that. Mage's Disjunction would theoretically deal with the teleport boots (as well as any other magic items Fluffy has), so be prepared for that. You probably want to work a Mantle of Spell Resistance or some such thing into your build, you're incredibly vulnerable to anything that doesn't require a save or attack roll (hence spells like Maze and Prismatic Sphere).


Fairly simple way to come for any high level PC is mages Disjunction


Etob wrote:
William H wrote:
Etob> prismatic sphere + maze +cloukill sounds brutal. Could you exaplin a bit more about how that interaction works? Are people affected by cloukill while inside the maze? As before, I plan to put boots of teleport on Fluffy to negate some of the means of trapping him. As for saves/invis, as long as he has rage uses left, natural ones and invis shouldn't be an issue thanks to the eater of magic and ultimate clarity (reroll failed saves vs magic and see invis/blur/darkness/ etc) rage powers. Could you talk me through the astral deva? If the idea is to use the stun ability, it's only going to live one round if it closes to engage in melee ;)
Boots of teleport would negate the Prismatic Sphere strategy. The idea with Cloudkill is to set it up so it's there when Fluffy returns from the Maze, it wouldn't affect him while he's in the Maze. Astral Deva was just a random example of a summoned creature, not much thought was put into it. I didn't even think of that readied Gate strategy someone else suggested, not many ways around that. Mage's Disjunction would theoretically deal with the teleport boots (as well as any other magic items Fluffy has), so be prepared for that. You probably want to work a Mantle of Spell Resistance or some such thing into your build, you're incredibly vulnerable to anything that doesn't require a save or attack roll (hence spells like Maze and Prismatic Sphere).

Building off of this, I'd use a Nalfeshnee. At-will greater dispel magic can take care of problematic magic items. Assuming a permanent arcane sight on the wizard, discerning which Ioun Stone to dispel would also help.

Also, a broader note to the OP: Check out Anzyr's Arkalion for a clue as to what a fully optimized lv 20 wizard can do. It is likely a bit out of date (it is 3 years old or so) but still has some crazy abilities.


William H wrote:
Darigaaz > repeated use of furious focus is achieved by combining scarlet and green cabochon and the internal fortitude rage power: fatigued comes in, gets turned into sickened, we are immune to sickened. I'm new to pathfinder, but going by this post (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p0f8?Rage-cycling-in-PFS) it seems to held as acceptable (esp Lab_rat's comments/references to earlier post). To your second point, as above Fluffy can't stop you leaving, but dueling is part of the premise. Lastly, readied-action gate sounds really brutal. Does the spell force the person to be transported without a save? I thought unwilling travellers had to be bull-rushed in or something.

Oh I'm well aware of how rage cycling works. However Furious Focus specifically denies rage-cycling by making you fatigued even if you would not be. The ioun stone makes you sickened instead of fatigued. ie you would not be fatigued because of the stone, but furious focus says you are fatigued anyway.

As for readied-action gate, the portal version of the gate creates a 2d disk that sends anything going into it from one side to the chosen point on the other plane. So the readied action would be something like "I cast gate as Fluffy closes from 10ft away from me to 5ft away from me" (or whatever the edge of Fluffy's reach is). Fluffy's move takes him into the gate, the gate takes him to another plane, then the wizard on his turn ceases concentration on the gate and it closes.


Hammer him with Mage's Disjunction. Couple of good pops of it, and he's basically putty.

Dark Archive

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William H wrote:

Melee: +5 Agile and Impact Gargantuan bastard sword

Str 9

can he actually pick up that sword? what about encumbrance?

also agile Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

can you finesse that sword somehow? im missing it


William H wrote:
Dastis> fluffy can see invis and mindblank has will save negates and we should pass the save. The wizard can leave the fight, yep, but it's part of the premise that he doesn't.

Mindblank is being cast on the wizard, not Fluffy.

Fluffy does not get a save. See Invisibility simply will not work.


William H wrote:

Fluffy

CE human Unchained monk 1, Titan fighter 1, Antipaladin 2, Savage urban barbarian 16
Init: +14

Defense
AC: 56, touch 50, flat-footed 56 (all +14 vs target of smite)
HP: 245
Fort: +44, Ref: +42, Will: +39, (vs spells/supernatural abilities: Fort: +56, Ref: +54, Will: +51)
Defensive abilities: uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, freedom of movement, superstition, internal fortitude, strength surge (1/rage immediate action to add barb levels to CMD), eater of magic (1/rage reroll failed saves vs magic), flesh wound (1/rage fort save to reduce damage), ultimate clarity (1/rage see through darkness, blur, invisibility, etc); immune: sickened, nauseated (for at-will rage cycling).

Offense
Speed: 30ft, fly 60ft (good)
Melee: +5 Agile and Impact Gargantuan bastard sword; +42 to-hit, 209 Vital strike damage (and +54 to-hit, 211 damage vs target of smite).
Reach: 10ft
Offensive abilities: Surprise accuracy (already included above, swift action for +5 to-hit 1/rage), Greater elemental blood (fly speed, constant while raging), fueled by vengeance (recover uses of rage, constant while raging). Rage uses/day: 40

You really should breakdown how you are getting the high AC, attack, and save values.

I see a few flaws in your numbers that should be explained.

First off, you are counting on the Smite ability from the Antipaladin class. This only counts versus good aligned characters and you cannot assume said wizard 20 is good.

You have charisma to AC citing the Deific Obediance (Calistria) feat but Calistria only grants this boon to Exalted followers. And you have no way in your build to be granted this boon. I believe you would have to have 9 levels of the Exalted prestige class to get this boon.

And how are you getting a Dexterity of 28 and a Charisma of 32 before adding belt and headband items?


Also, assuming you can destroy 8 targets per round (everything surrounding you, but no reach), I can give peasants wands of magic missile.
I need to hit you 125 times tops, rolling 1 for damage each time. On average it's 3.5 damage per hit, but let's go with 125 castings to bring you down. They have to roll a 20 to successfully use the wand, no big deal. That's 20 tries x125 hits needed x750gp per wand, thats almost 2 million gold. On the other hand, if I bring just over half that many peasants I can let 8 die and get another round of shots off the ones that are left, and so forth. So the minimum number of peasants I need is surprisingly low if I'm willing to let their numbers dwindle a bit. This also cuts down my gold paid to survivors.

Realistically, I can get about 200 wands and peasants, promise them 50 gold each to their families if they die and another 50 to survivors, and break out less than 200,000 gold. First wave of 200 peasants is 20 damage, followed by 40 dying every 10 rounds so let's work from there... 20/19/19/18/18/17/17/16/16/15
That's your first 10 rounds, in force damage, assuming nat 20 only succeeds the check and average rolls win, but they only get minimum damage. That's 175 damage, if you clear 8 a round. Give me another 10 rounds and the rest will finish you off.

Granted this also means I need time to set up the wands, arcane mark my small army, that I'm definitely evil if I wasn't before, and I need to be able to get them all to the field (I'd say there's ways to do that with teleports and personal dimensions and all that).

Basically this is the mean way to ignore your armor, deny you saves, and chip your health into the dirt. I don't even really have to spend half that gold if I make the wands myself and charm the village into agreeing to help me in exchange for casting a heroes feast daily for a year in their town hall.

(Edit: math error, 80 dying every 10 rounds, I need a few more bodies. Up me to 300 peasants and wands, it's a bit more expensive but overkill is fun and it still isn't breaking my bank)


Start him off with Waves of Exhaustion to stop that nasty raging(and flying as a bonus!) and drop his STR to 3. Quickened Fly and move up out of range. Finish as your mood suits you.


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Thanks for all the feedback once again!

> Wonderstell, etob, darigaaz, and paradozen thanks for your tactics and build advice. CMD is something i'd like to find ways to raise, and yeah the build is suuuper exposed to getting feinted. I assumed (or hoped) that most mages wouldn't be spec'd for it, but I felt a twang as i wrote in his very average sense motive bonus. Etob I'd like to get back to you more about the tactics, am a little overwhelmed with writing atm! Darigaaz do you think the furious focus would work if we had full fatigue immunity instead? Perhaps through a cord of stubborn resolve?

> Nameviolation, youare quite right, it's a straight up fehler. gah I feel so annoyed with myself! I had a few different weapons in mind and different clans to for how to use them (ie unchained rogue finesse, cha for star knives, dex orc butchering axe using fighter finesse, giantform into a cloudgiant who has the 'oversized' weapon ability. The bastard sword should be used with effortless lace (missing from list) but that doesn't work if it's too big for the wielder. I will edit the build tomorrow to use an elven curved blade instead, and weapon damage will fall to 128 + other modifiers.

> Volkard, ouch that's brutal! so see invis just wouldn't work at all then... do you know anyway around that?

> jakkedin, I didnt post every detail because I didn't want to make a massive magethread that would swamp readers. But since people are so helpfully prodding at it perhaps I should do that now. Also gah! I totally forgot that the smite ability only works on people of the right alignment. I normally build builds to fight cthulhu and two levels of pal is just a given for so many reasons. I've just grabbed the antipaladin to fit alignment restrictions, but ofc it doesn't work so broadly. As for deific obedience, it gives you the exalted bonus as a default if you just have the feat but no special prestige levels.

Ok as for the stats:

20 point buy
Str 7 +2 size = 9 (-1)
Dex 18 +6 item +4 tome +6 rage -2 size +2 race = 34 (+12)
Con 12 +4 tome = 18 (+4) (*** arghr*** should be 16)
Int 7 +6 item +3 age = 16 (+3)
Wis 12 +6 item +5 tome +3 age = 26 (+8)
Cha 15 +6 item +5 tome +3 age +2 race +5 levels = 38 (+14)

Cha to ac vs one enemy 14 (deflection, antipaladin smite)
Dex to ac 12
Cha to ac 14 (celestial obedience)
Wis to ac 8 (unchained monk)

touch AC: 10 +8 Wis +12 Dex +14 Cha +3 savage barb dodge +1 dodge feat +1 dusty rose = 49
reg AC: same +6 natural armor (rage)

... yep I'm one touch AC to high, argh. Must have deleted something to save money and not updated :(

Mistakes:
-The weapon damage is wrong as noted above, will edit
-Touch AC should be 49, not 50.
-I have forgotten to note the we are large, and forgotten to pay for a permanent enlarge person spell.
-I have forgotten to note that we are venerable age, and to pay for a mantle of authority (50k) to ignore the age penalties
-I can't count to 16.

That's quite a lot of mistakes already! There's also the fatigue immunity point brough up by darrigaaz. I will edit the build tomorrow with these changes, and snip some things to pay for what we need. Thanks for the input all!


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Flying faster seems the simplest way. Form of the Dragon III and quickened haste gives the wizard a 150' fly speed which gets them out of charge range (or even run range) with a move action. The wizard keeps their distance and keeps trying stuff until something gets thru, likely with a couple of greater dispel magics up first.

Once done the wizard goes home, having saved their 9th level spells for difficult targets.


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Some advice for gear, swap the +5 Agile Impact weapon for a +3 Furious Impact Agile weapon, and swap the Stone of Good Luck for a Lucky Horseshoe and a Four-Leaf Clover. This gives you most of what your previous gear did, but saves you about 39k gold. Swap the Pale Green Ioun Stone for two Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stones (one for saves, another for attacks) and you save another 22k for the price of +1 on ability checks and skill checks. Gives money for the teleport boots and another 14k gold (check to make sure my math is right before you use it, it is too late and I am rounding).

Also look into getting an Obsidian Steed Figurine of Wondrous Power. It has plane shift and etherealness, both of which can help get out of a bind. Plane Shift+Teleport will guarantee you free from a maze (albeit in a couple rounds) and ruthlessness underground can escape some effects that would hold you. Of course this only helps until the wizard kills the horse, but it likely won't be able to kill the horse while damaging you so that might buy you a round. Or at least, spare you from (some of) a quickened magic missile.


Limited Wish->Geas "Go to sleep for 10 minutes"-> Summon monster 9(Astral Deva)-> Coup De Grace-> Make a DC 101 fort save or die, without any bonuses from rage as you are asleep. Also take 3d8+78 damage.


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fearcypher wrote:
Limited Wish->Geas "Go to sleep for 10 minutes"-> Summon monster 9(Astral Deva)-> Coup De Grace-> Make a DC 101 fort save or die, without any bonuses from rage as you are asleep. Also take 3d8+78 damage.

I'm afraid not, falling asleep in the middle of a duel is certain death. It's also not necessarily something one can force themselves to do, it's not like he's falling to a sleep spell he'd be obliged to attempt to sleep but prevented by combat adrenaline and the knowledge that he was doomed, and also very uncomfortable lying there, so he's eventually going to take penalties for not following the order but in all likelihood this will matter little by the time it's relevant. Geas to fall asleep in combat is more or less prohibited by the rules. Geas to keep one hand in your pocket at all times however, is merely highly amusing and debilitating but in theory he could still survive so it isn't certain death.

While I'm at it, go ahead and summon several of those Deva, you don't want to let him find a way to survive the coup de Grace and then be in a one sided fight with an angel. Make it a horrifically one sided fight with three angels.


Name Violation wrote:
William H wrote:

Melee: +5 Agile and Impact Gargantuan bastard sword

Str 9

can he actually pick up that sword? what about encumbrance?

I think it weights around 50 lbs - so medium load. Max dex +3 ?


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One wizard build I made a few years ago had a caster level of 24 or better. That means I cast time stop, and gate in several things that can take on an entire level 20 party on their own. Then I just go away, and let you deal with them.

I know I was able to get a few titans and solars to join the party.

Without the smite your AC is not hard for them to hit, and the Solar can just hit you and move away since it's faster than you. If the Solar has time to buff, which it may not, things would be even worse. You also have to avoid any titans killing you. 245 hit points won't last long.

Basically you aren't taking on a 20th level wizard with PC wealth and winning.

As for an NPC wizard I'd maze you, and bring in summon monsters with AoE abilities while you were gone.

There is also quickened true strike and enervation to drop your d20 rolls so other things start to work better.

So with some actual planning he isn't taking on an NPC wizard either. This is just me thinking of things within less than a 5 minute span.

Of course this is Schrodinger's wizard. I'm going to look at a level 20 wizard from an AP to see if what can be done.

The NPC in question has access to all spells from the core book except for enchantment and illusion spells so he is going to win this also.


William H wrote:

...

touch AC: 10 +8 Wis +12 Dex +14 Cha +3 savage barb dodge +1 dodge feat +1 dusty rose = 49
reg AC: same +6 natural armor (rage)

... yep I'm one touch AC to high, argh. Must have deleted something to save money and not updated :(

...

mantle of authority (50k) to ignore the age penalties

You are also missing the size penalty to AC from being size large.

Another chink in your "armor", Reduce Person counters and dispels Enlarge Person. No save on your part. Now since it is permanent, this wouldn't be gone forever possibly. And you are succeptible to all the spells like dispel magic, greater dispel magic, and disjunction. Which do not allow saves on your part. So whomever is creating these items for you and casting Permanency should be as high a caster as possible. And upping the caster level of an item increases its cost.

And speaking of magic items, what source is Mantle of Authority from?


If I had to kill you?

Planar Binding Greater

Pick your death

Gate Archons- gate, gate, gate, gate, gate, gate, gate, gate, gate, gate, gate..... gate, gate

Caller's Feather->Pit Fiend + Army of hired lv1 commoners with slashing weapons

Timeless Demiplane + Astradaemon + a lot of pigs

Dark Archive

He also forgot to take age penalties to his phys ability scores so his str and con are even lower.....


He must mean a Mantle of Immortality, not a Mantle of Authority.

Of course in a theorycrafting battle, it's way cheaper to just implant a Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone.


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Short answer: Level 20 Foresight (Divination) wizard. Treats the initiative d20 as a natural 20, and adds half level to it. Heightened Awareness lasts for 200 minutes at this level; with an Extend rod, that's a first level spell that lasts 6+ hours. I would assume that is always up, even with the no-buffs rule. - minimum of 34 on Initiative, which requires the barbarian to roll a nat 20 to tie. And that's with no other bonuses. First turn - Dimension door 1200 ft away, and then take some time to buff/prep/think as it takes Fluffy 10 rounds to catch up.


William H wrote:
First of all, Fluffy of course has no way to force the wizard to fight. Wizard 20 is just better than any warrior, no question. Part of the premise here, though, is that it's a duel. The wizard could not show up or run away, but he would then lose competition. I know that ruffles some feathers, because it's contrived, but I'm only interested here in finding out if he could survive straight-forward combat.

So a hubris situation. A reputation thing. Or a "girls are watching! (and I am unable to mind control them)" thing.


Fluffy cannot personally manipulate time, space, and matter... any combination of the two in the same round... the same round that the wizard will always go first.

The wizard is fighting like pride is on the line, like girls are watching. You kissed my sister, I hate you, now fight these demons and angels and fall in a pit and chase me whilst I teleport 1200 feet away. That's what wizards do. Your mage killer doesn't do any of that, even if the girls are watching.

Your mage killer isn't a 20 level wizard specialized in antimagic, so you will never win unless you catch him on the toilet, which you know Divination Wizard...

Maze is an NPC capable spell. You're lost. Whilst you are lost, demons have been summoned to kill you, and the wizard is gone.

Your mage killer is now fighting multiple demons or monsters, none of which are weak at this point.

The wizard could stick around just to watch, drop you in a hungry pit a 100 feet deep at any time.

You didn't build a mage to kill mages, so you can't be expected to go against a Wizard 20 without anything less than a Wizard 20... they get it all in this game. Nobody else does.


Kaouse wrote:

He must mean a Mantle of Immortality, not a Mantle of Authority.

Of course in a theorycrafting battle, it's way cheaper to just implant a Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone.

So that's what we target with a dispel and watch as the weight of his own gear prevents him from breathing and he dies?

A 20th level cleric/druid would be about the only thing that could take a 20th level wizard besides another wizard in a theory battle. And even then no one is ever really "getting the drop" on anyone else. It's gonna be what did you prepare today and how can it mess up what I have prepared. Best thing the cleric can do is drop a AMF on the wizard and wade in and beat him up.


An exhausted character moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity.

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If I lose Initiative, use Emergency Force Sphere and Dimension Door out of there. Buff up with Form of the Dragon III, and fly circles around that poor fellow at 120ft speed until the Barbarian un-rages, then zap him with Ray of Exhaustion, and now he's Exhausted even on a save.

If I win Initiative, I flat-out win. Ray of Exhaustion causes Fatigue even on a save. Round1: I can have my Familiar or Improved Familiar use Wand of RoE and I can RoE in the same round, instantly making him Exhausted even if he saves. He can't rage, fly, charge or run now, and is limited to his 15ft move speed. Round2: I cast Haste on myself, and for added effect, I use my movement action to skip holding hands with my familiar, while I prepare for round 3.

This "mage-killer" only has 9 strength, this is his downfall. Exhaustion is -6 Str, and Ray of Enfeeblement deals 1d6+5 Str dmg, save for half, so minimum3/maximum5 on a save. Either way, even with the minimum strength damage from Ray of Exhaustion, Mage-killer's Strength is now 1. At 1 Str, encumbrance is light 0-3lbs, med 4–6lbs, hvy 7–10lbs and is considered "Morbidly weak, has significant trouble lifting own limbs" http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/ His weapon alone would probably put him higher than heavy encumbrance.

If I win Initiative, by round 3, I'm down a lvl 3 spell: Haste, a lvl 1 spell: Ray of Exhaustion, 2 wand charges: Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement. Fluffy can't rage, fly, run, or charge, and he's at 1 Str, and moves at 15ft. I'm skipping around him at 60ft per round.

If I lose Initiative, by whatever round the Barbarian gets bored of chasing me, I'm down a lvl 8 spell: Form of the Dragon III, a lvl 4 spell: Emergency Force Sphere, a lvl 3 spell: Dimension Door, a lvl 1 spell: Ray of Exhaustion, 2 wand charges: Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement. Fluffy can't rage, fly, run, or charge, and he's at 1 Str, and moves at 15ft. I'm flying at 120ft, and I'm a Dragon.

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Here's some potential fight-enders:

Killing Blow1: Limited Wish to debuff saves, then Heighten/Persistent Suggestion: "Here, let's drink these two barrels of Feywine together" (and get him slobbering/passed-out drunk - my own barrel would be grape juice), or Suggestion: "Kneel down and admire this flower for 8 hours", then Move Earth over the next 3-4 hours to create a pyramid and bury him alive. +1 Nerd point for style.

Killing Blow2: Limited Wish to debuff saves, then Heighten/Persistent a Blindness spell. Limited Wish to use a Cup of Dust spell and watch Fluffy die of dehydration over the next 4-5 days, where I follow him throughout the desert casting drench cantrips. -1 Nerd point for evilness.

Killing Blow3: Forcecage, then cast an Acid Pit beneath him as the Forcecage ends. He takes 100ft of falling dmg + 2d6 acid dmg every round for 20 rounds, plus the acid destroys all his gear, giving it the broken condition. When he gets out of the pit with all his broken gear, I cast Geas/Quest and Hallucinatory Terrain to send him to kill the Evil Red Dragon in yonder Skull Mountain. I use Form of the Dragon III and wait for him. +1 Nerd Point for an epic death.

Killing Blow4: Limited Wish to debuff Saves, Scroll of True Strike, Empowered Intensified Maximized Disintegration with Spell Spec/Greater Spell Spec/Spell Perfection feats & Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter traits. Instant 450 dmg on hit and a failed save. I cast Gust of Wind to scatter the ashes. -1 Nerd point for lack of style.


Let me introduce you to your opponent.

Take a good look. Compare some of the relevant numbers. Fluffy can't hit Arkalion except on a 20. Even if you hit him you likely won't drop him. Even if you drop him you aren't actually dropping him, you're just killing the Harbinger Daemon he's currently riding around in. Which is actually Astrally Projected. He'll be back in a round or two. Then you get to fight him again. Meanwhile, the Solar Arkalion pals around with is going to be throwing more Solars at you.

Fluffy can't win this. Not even if we gave him a special bonus of Fluffy gets 20s on every d20 roll, forever.

Here's the real knife in the gut about this-

Arkalion is not an Optimized Wizard. He's mostly built to PFS standards, and has chosen to focus on defense. His resources are mostly focused on layers and layers of defenses. He's a generalist with a few cool tricks and a lot of contingencies.

There are wizard builds that can turn Arkalion into a hedgehog and carry him around in a pocket.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

An exhausted character moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity.

.

If I lose Initiative, use Emergency Force Sphere and Dimension Door out of there. Buff up with Form of the Dragon III, and fly circles around that poor fellow at 120ft speed until the Barbarian un-rages, then zap him with Ray of Exhaustion, and now he's Exhausted even on a save.

If I win Initiative, I flat-out win. Ray of Exhaustion causes Fatigue even on a save. Round1: I can have my Familiar or Improved Familiar use Wand of RoE and I can RoE in the same round, instantly making him Exhausted even if he saves. He can't rage, fly, charge or run now, and is limited to his 15ft move speed. Round2: I cast Haste on myself, and for added effect, I use my movement action to skip holding hands with my familiar, while I prepare for round 3.

This "mage-killer" only has 9 strength, this is his downfall. Exhaustion is -6 Str, and Ray of Enfeeblement deals 1d6+5 Str dmg, save for half, so minimum3/maximum5 on a save. Either way, even with the minimum strength damage from Ray of Exhaustion, Mage-killer's Strength is now 1. At 1 Str, encumbrance is light 0-3lbs, med 4–6lbs, hvy 7–10lbs and is considered "Morbidly weak, has significant trouble lifting own limbs" http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/ His weapon alone would probably put him higher than heavy encumbrance.

If I win Initiative, by round 3, I'm down a lvl 3 spell: Haste, a lvl 1 spell: Ray of Exhaustion, 2 wand charges: Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement. Fluffy can't rage, fly, run, or charge, and he's at 1 Str, and moves at 15ft. I'm skipping around him at 60ft per round.

If I lose Initiative, by whatever round the Barbarian gets bored of chasing me, I'm down a lvl 8 spell: Form of the Dragon III, a lvl 4 spell: Emergency Force Sphere, a lvl 3 spell: Dimension Door, a lvl 1 spell: Ray of Exhaustion, 2 wand charges: Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement. Fluffy can't...

I missed the Ioun stone that causes fatigue/exhaustion becomes sickened/nauseated. Internal Fortitude only causes you to be immune to sickened/nauseated while Raging. Either way, I'd fly circles around you until you un-rage, then I'd still exhaust you, either with Ray of Exhaustion or Waves of Exhaustion, so now you're nauseated.

"Nauseated:

Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn."

While you're puking and only making a movement action per round, I zap your Ioun stone that has an AC 24, 10hp and 5hardness with Scorching Ray, and then use my Wands of Ray of Exhaustion to then properly fatigue-->exhaust you. And then all that stuff in the quote would ensue. You'd be at 1 strength, so good luck getting out of the way of anything I cast. I can still just Gate you to the plane of Water and you can drown.


A 20ft diameter gate can be horizontal and on the ground under Fluffy. It doesn’t have to be standing vertically.


Darius Darkblade aka Legionare wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

He must mean a Mantle of Immortality, not a Mantle of Authority.

Of course in a theorycrafting battle, it's way cheaper to just implant a Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone.

So that's what we target with a dispel and watch as the weight of his own gear prevents him from breathing and he dies?

Hence why I mentioned the implantation of the Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone. Implanted stones can't really be targeted by Dispel Magic, or even Mage's Disjunction.

Darius Darkblade aka Legionare wrote:
A 20th level cleric/druid would be about the only thing that could take a 20th level wizard besides another wizard in a theory battle. And even then no one is ever really "getting the drop" on anyone else. It's gonna be what did you prepare today and how can it mess up what I have prepared. Best thing the cleric can do is drop a AMF on the wizard and wade in and beat him up.

I generally agree, though I think Oracles should definitely be added to the list of classes that can beat wizards in a theoretical battle. The amount of BS you can pull off with a Level 20 Oracle is pretty ludicrous.


Kaouse wrote:
Darius Darkblade aka Legionare wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

He must mean a Mantle of Immortality, not a Mantle of Authority.

Of course in a theorycrafting battle, it's way cheaper to just implant a Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone.

So that's what we target with a dispel and watch as the weight of his own gear prevents him from breathing and he dies?

Hence why I mentioned the implantation of the Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone. Implanted stones can't really be targeted by Dispel Magic, or even Mage's Disjunction.

Darius Darkblade aka Legionare wrote:
A 20th level cleric/druid would be about the only thing that could take a 20th level wizard besides another wizard in a theory battle. And even then no one is ever really "getting the drop" on anyone else. It's gonna be what did you prepare today and how can it mess up what I have prepared. Best thing the cleric can do is drop a AMF on the wizard and wade in and beat him up.
I generally agree, though I think Oracles should definitely be added to the list of classes that can beat wizards in a theoretical battle. The amount of BS you can pull off with a Level 20 Oracle is pretty ludicrous.

Truth. An Oracle with Mnemonic Vestments and the Dreamed Secrets feat is simply put, bullschnickity, and would give any wizard a run for his money. If said Oracle is Half Elf and has Paragon Surge spell... get outta here. Get out. Bad counterargument poster *squirt squirt*, bad!


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
Darius Darkblade aka Legionare wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

He must mean a Mantle of Immortality, not a Mantle of Authority.

Of course in a theorycrafting battle, it's way cheaper to just implant a Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone.

So that's what we target with a dispel and watch as the weight of his own gear prevents him from breathing and he dies?

Hence why I mentioned the implantation of the Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone. Implanted stones can't really be targeted by Dispel Magic, or even Mage's Disjunction.

Darius Darkblade aka Legionare wrote:
A 20th level cleric/druid would be about the only thing that could take a 20th level wizard besides another wizard in a theory battle. And even then no one is ever really "getting the drop" on anyone else. It's gonna be what did you prepare today and how can it mess up what I have prepared. Best thing the cleric can do is drop a AMF on the wizard and wade in and beat him up.
I generally agree, though I think Oracles should definitely be added to the list of classes that can beat wizards in a theoretical battle. The amount of BS you can pull off with a Level 20 Oracle is pretty ludicrous.

Truth. An Oracle with Mnemonic Vestments and the Dreamed Secrets feat is simply put, bullschnickity, and would give any wizard a run for his money. If said Oracle is Half Elf and has Paragon Surge spell... get outta here. Get out. Bad counterargument poster *squirt squirt*, bad!

Also Awaken loops. Sure, it requires repeated Int-draining, but extremely high casting (and AC, and Ref, and...) stat speaks for itself.

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