Tenacious Inspiration, Empathy, and Reroll Stacking.

[Makeitstop]

Just trying to get clarification on how Empathy and Tenacious inspiration interact when rolling inspiration dice on a sense motive check.

Empathy:

Spoiler:

When attempting a Sense Motive check, the investigator makes two d20 rolls and takes the higher result. If an investigator uses inspiration on a Sense Motive check, he rolls the inspiration dice twice and takes the higher result. Once per day, the investigator can expend one use of inspiration to target a single creature that he can see and hear within 30 feet. Upon doing so, the investigator detects the surface thoughts of the target’s mind, as if he concentrated for 3 rounds while using the detect thoughts spell, unless the creature succeeds on a Will saving throw. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the investigator’s level + his Intelligence modifier. If the target fails, the investigator can continue to detect the surface thoughts of the target creature for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 his investigator level.

Tenacious inspiration:

Spoiler:

When an investigator rolls his inspiration die, he can roll an additional inspiration die and take the higher result.

I couldn't find a general rule on reroll/double-roll stacking, and even the specific wording suffers from an order of operation problem. Do I roll 2d6 because of empathy and then roll an additional die to make it 3d6? Or do I roll an additional die because of Tenacious Inspiration, and roll that twice because of empathy for a total of 4d6?

[MrCharisma]

I think the general rule for pathfinder is that it's whatever's less optimal for the player. You still end up with 2d6 keep the highest, so it's still great (chance of rolling a 1 ends up at ~0.5%, chance of rolling a 6 ends up at ~42%).

For more fun, think about how this scenario would work with True Inspiration...?

[MrCharisma]

MrCharisma wrote:

I think the general rule for pathfinder is that it's whatever's less optimal for the player. You still end up with 2d6 3D6 keep the highest, so it's still great (chance of rolling a 1 ends up at ~0.5%, chance of rolling a 6 ends up at ~42%).

For more fun, think about how this scenario would work with True Inspiration...?

Derp Derp. Fixed my typo. The rest of the maths was meant to go with 3d6, so now it's correct.

My bad =P

[Makeitstop]

From a balance perspective, I am inclined to agree that it should be 3d6. From a rules lawyering perspective, I am inclined to think that empathy demands you roll whatever your inspiration dice are twice, and tenacious inspiration makes your inspiration dice best of 2d6, and thus you should roll a total of 4d6.

I'm honestly ok with either interpretation, I just wish there was an established rule for such an obvious interaction for two abilities coming from the same source.

[Mallecks]

Empathy lets you roll the inspiration die twice.

Tenacious Inspiration lets you roll an additional die when you roll an inspiration die.

Seems to me like you get two sets of 2d6 (for 4d6 total.) It is like a similar interaction between Sap Adept and Sap Master.

[MrCharisma]

Actually when I read TRUE INSPIRATION it does seem like you'd get 2 sets of dice (roll 4).
So I guess ignore my above posts =P

EDIT: (True Inspiration is a similar ability, so it seems appropriate to compare)