Speculation about domains


Prerelease Discussion


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I know we're going to get the official word on domains tomorrow (though probably fragmentary information as usual), but I still want to speculate what they'll be like. :)

Some things are pretty much confirmed...

  • You get one domain at 1st level, not two as before.
  • A domain comes with a spell-like power that you cast with... ugh... "spell points." (I still hate this name.)
  • You can get up to two more domains with feats.
  • You can improve domains with feats.

And unless I'm missing something, that's pretty much all we know.

So, here is what I hope for based on that...

  • I was surprised not to see a mention of obediences, something they added to clerics late in PF1. Maybe these are still around though, and are actually associated to the domains? So a cleric with the Fire domain has different obediences compared to a cleric with the War domain, even if both belong to the same deity. Each domain could likewise come with one additional anathema - a Fire cleric may be compelled not to put out fires that don't immediately threaten sapient life, but a War cleric wouldn't care, again even though they both serve the same deity.
  • I was kind of expecting classes to come with two ability increases at 1st level under their new system, a set stat and a float, not just one as we saw with Cleric getting Wisdom. But what if this is still generally true, and the Cleric's second ability increase is actually based on their first domain? So a cleric who picks the Strength domain gets, well, Strength as their second ability increase. (Of course, there's still the possibility that classes only get the one stat up, or that the cleric does get a float but they just didn't mention it.)
  • I expect domains will probably come with a secondary ability, besides just the spell-like power. For some domains this will be a passive defensive power, for other domains it will be bonus skills or weapon / armor proficiencies, for still other domains it could be dipping a 1st level class feature from another class. There's a lot of potential here. This could also be where +2 to Strength from the Strength domain goes if ability scores aren't usually tied to your domains.
  • I'm still hoping for domains to come with a list of associated spells. Even if the cleric doesn't get bonus spell slots per day in PF2, maybe now they can spontaneously trade out spell slots to cast a spell from their domain. This way a Fire cleric can still get Fireball and Wall of Fire. Additionally or alternatively, perhaps you can even use the "Spell Points" from your domain to cast these spells.
  • I expect the second domain you take still has to be one of the domains associated with your deity. But I'm thinking the third one won't be available until you have at least Expert proficiency in divine magic as a prerequisite. So maybe at that point, you know enough about divine magic as a higher-level divine caster that you can access the broader grab bag of divine powers. So maybe that third domain can be any domain. That way, you can pick a deity you like and whose anathema you can have fun playing, and still get a domain that might otherwise be locked behind deities you wouldn't have fun with. It also just helps improve the versatility of clerics in general.
  • I'm hopeful that rather than having just one or two set higher level abilities from improving a domain you already have, you'll actually get a choice - sort of like how the Oracle's Mysteries allow you to select from a wide variety of abilities. These can be thematic expansions of the domain and tie in to the old subdomains. So maybe you always start as a Fire cleric, but with your feats you can then specialize and become an Ash cleric or Smoke cleric. This also opens space to improve older existing domains with new feats in later splats, stuff that can help existing characters, rather than only always creating new domains that you can't use as an existing character.

Does anyone else have any ideas you think are likely to happen with domains, or that at least you hope will happen?


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I hope they are very careful with obedience. Gamers love to become absolutists and its a real annoying role play habit.

I hope that classes only offer a single +2.

I have a feeling that the cleric domain spell is staying in PF2. Instead of your domain being an extra slot though, it will be powered by spell points. This will happen on top of the domain supernatural ability, giving you choices on resource management of your spell points.

Im still curious what you have to trade for a 2nd and 3rd domain...

I can dig the fire/ash/smoke cleric paradigm, if such a thing is in the works.


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Obedience you mean the feat from inner sea gods? It wasnt cleric exclusive so maybe thats why. It added a lot of flavor to the game (still need to play that bloat mage urgathoa evangelist). Maybe not core since it takes a lot of space to be done properly.

One thing I would add you can get an advanced domain power at level 4 instead of level. While taking two domains and advancing them eats 3 class feats so up to level 10?


Wermut wrote:

Obedience you mean the feat from inner sea gods? It wasnt cleric exclusive so maybe thats why. It added a lot of flavor to the game (still need to play that bloat mage urgathoa evangelist). Maybe not core since it takes a lot of space to be done properly.

One thing I would add you can get an advanced domain power at level 4 instead of level. While taking two domains and advancing them eats 3 class feats so up to level 10?

Depending on what the advanced domain powers bring to the cleric it may be worth using the feats to unlock them. Hopefully we will see more in tomorrow's blog.


Obedience’s weren’t Cleric-exclusive in PF1 (Quite a few devotees to Pharasma happened to be Rogues for . . . Reasons.) so while I expect them to be added in later on in a new Ultimate Religion book, I think that Anathema will provide more than enough flavor for the average worshipper.

Personally I’d prefer the Class Bonus be set, if only so I don’t need to change my current theory of how Character Generation works. Your method would also suggest that every class would need to have a floating +2 but only the cleric’s is tied to their mechanics.

I think that a Strength Ability Score Increase should either be temporary and require Spell Points to use, or be the more powerful Domain Power that you can unlock later.

Domains do have at least 2 Powers. However the stronger one needs to be unlocked with a Cleric Feat at level 4+. This is likely where the Fire Domain’s Fire Resistance/Immunity is.

I’m personally hoping that Domain Spell Slots are still and thing. If only because I don’t know how else we’ll separate Specialized vs. Universalist Wizards beyond their School Powers.

I’d really prefer that domains are restricted to their Deity. Domain access should be one of the most influential aspects of choosing your diety. Otherwise we’re inviting every Cleric to snipe the best Domain Powers regardless of whether or not it makes sense. Why would Iomadae be able to give the powers of the Madness Domain? Why would Torag be able to give the powers of the Plant domain?

Mystery-like Domains would be cool, however they would probably take up too much Book space.


Spells that you can use Spell Points on are stronger than cantrips, but weaker than the highest level spell you can cast, so I don't imagine they're going to be spell slot spells.

I imagine the stronger domain spell will cost 2 spell points, to keep it at around the same power level.


We do have an additional piece of information! Anything that gets you more options for spending spell points also gives you more spell points. So, if you want to max out three domains, you’ll have a bunch more points to use. Sounds like a very magic-heavy option.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
I was surprised not to see a mention of obediences, something they added to clerics late in PF1. Maybe these are still around though, and are actually associated to the domains? So a cleric with the Fire domain has different obediences compared to a cleric with the War domain, even if both belong to the same deity. Each domain could likewise come with one additional anathema - a Fire cleric may be compelled not to put out fires that don't immediately threaten sapient life, but a War cleric wouldn't care, again even though they both serve the same deity.

This would create problems with deities that have different interpretations of the same aspects.


That would be cool if your domain choice was what determined your second +2 stat increase.

Silver Crusade

Dragon78 wrote:
That would be cool if your domain choice was what determined your second +2 stat increase.

I thought one of Mark's posts might have hinted at this but when I scrolled back through his recents I couldn't spot one that would have made me think that. So maybe I was imagining things?

Designer

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Joe M. wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
That would be cool if your domain choice was what determined your second +2 stat increase.
I thought one of Mark's posts might have hinted at this but when I scrolled back through his recents I couldn't spot one that would have made me think that. So maybe I was imagining things?

Likely.


I figure classes won't give a 2nd +2, since by the current thinking there are four steps, each of which can add +2 to certain stats. If one of the 4 steps only increases one stat then you can't start with two 18s, but you can start with one.

Liberty's Edge

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I figure classes won't give a 2nd +2, since by the current thinking there are four steps, each of which can add +2 to certain stats. If one of the 4 steps only increases one stat then you can't start with two 18s, but you can start with one.

Yup. And this is where the evidence seems to be pointing.


ElSilverWind wrote:
I’m personally hoping that Domain Spell Slots are still and thing. If only because I don’t know how else we’ll separate Specialized vs. Universalist Wizards beyond their School Powers.

The cleric blog seems to deny that there are cleric spells slots. Since it goes in length through spell slots but domain spell slots arent mentioned.

But I recently saw an interview in which Mark Seifter mentioned that a cleric would be able to cast fireball "something something Sarenrae... holy symbol... No guano something something" Since he specifically mentioned Sarenrae I believe it wasn't a mistake. So domain bonus spells are probable.

Designer

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Something something Sarenrae...holy symbol...no guano something something.


DARKSIDE!


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Something something Sarenrae...holy symbol...no guano something something.

Not sure what this has to do with domains, but it has already been announced that a cleric's holy symbol replaces material components in some way. Though wwe don't know if displaying your holy symbol costs an action like a material component would, or if it's a way of reducing the action cost.

IIRC in the live play sessions, the cleric character cast a ray of fire using spell points and costing a single action, which was apparently a domain power he got from following Sarenrae.

Also, it has been suggested that there will be higher-level domain powers costing more than a single spell point to use. I mean when the cleric blog said "A cleric's initial power costs 1 Spell Point to cast." the use of the word "initial" guarantees that it's not the only one.

I feel confident that domains will be interesting and flavorful ways to customize clerics.

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