Kill the ring of sustenance.


Prerelease Discussion

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So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.


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no


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Im ok with it assuming it costs resonance to keep it going. /not signed


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Resonance doesn't change the fact that its an incredibly cheap removal of some very integral aspects of existence. Eating and sleeping. Its also a contributing factor to the CM/D along with things like metamagic rods (which should also disappear forever)


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Yeah... i somehow find the new survival skill, which should be even stronger now, will probably be able to provide food and water in space at some point by the look of things.

The wilderness shouldnt really be an issue in PF2.


Nox Aeterna wrote:

Yeah... i somehow find the new survival skill, which should be even stronger now, will probably be able to provide food and water in space at some point by the look of things.

The wilderness shouldnt really be an issue in PF2.

At higher levels no, but the ring of sustenance is so incredibly cheap for what it does. You rarely see an actual adventuring build that doesn't include one for a caster. If no other reason than how it minimizes the potential for your 8 hours rest to be interrupted.


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Shouldn't the table decides on such problems? I mean what kind of content is actually wanted to be experienced. If the GM presents a survival adventure / campaign the group should be able to easily figure out what is cheating them out of this experience and what not. Also the ring migt be seen as a greater reward or advancement then.

Then again if a group values other aspects like combat and so on, it may be seen as a simple tax that comes with advantages like an always prepared guard at night or the table might even forego the whole thing.


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"I'll buy ring of sustenance, boots of spider climbing, have scroll of invisibility, I can teleport us over any terrain...."

"ok you get to the bad guy and you can do the main battle"

GAME OVER

Exageration aplenty, but these things constantly trivialise many of the tribulations of parties, especially when the players have used or know these items already. It is always hard to keep something fresh, but damn these "i skip things" mechanics make it a bit harder.


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You think a low level magic item that negates the need for food and water and allows you to sleep for 1/4 the normal amount of time contributes to caster vs. martial issues?

So do you also have problems with the create water cantrip? How about the sustaining spoon which can feed the whole party for just over half the cost of 4 rings? As for sleep, I'm pretty sure your barbarian and monk won't be very happy if they don't get their beauty rest, replenishing their rage and ki, not to mention slapping them with the fatigued condition for the day.

I think you're off base with the impact of this item, and what you really want is a low magic setting.


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then you best get rid of Endure Elements, create/purify water/food as well. Which for the record, I'm ok with


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I don't see the issue with Ring of Sustenance, as I'm not really interested in playing "Eating Simulator 2nd Edition".


I feel like the ring of sustenance really exists so that the GM can have NPCs who have survived for improbably long times in some place where there isn't anything to eat or drink.

So if it's not a standard item I just have to come up with some other justification for "how has this hermit lived here that long?"

With big six items largely being removed from the game, I think it's reasonable to close down the magic-marts and just declare certain items are not widely available lest they become a problem and/or so something can be exciting to find in a loot pile.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ryan Freire wrote:
So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.

i get what your saying ..thing is other then a few darksun games food and water have almost never been an issue in any game i ran or was in.

and in those games getting such a ring would have likely never been an option.

so whats the harm in having it and its like?


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Ryan Freire wrote:
its an incredibly cheap removal of some very integral aspects of existence.

I'm not seeing that as a bad thing.

Ryan Freire wrote:
Its also a contributing factor to the CM/D

it does? I don't see how unless you are the kind of group that regularly steals familiars, sunders component pouches and pickpockets holy symbols...


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Errant Mercenary wrote:

"I'll buy ring of sustenance, boots of spider climbing, have scroll of invisibility, I can teleport us over any terrain...."

"ok you get to the bad guy and you can do the main battle"

GAME OVER

Exageration aplenty, but these things constantly trivialise many of the tribulations of parties, especially when the players have used or know these items already. It is always hard to keep something fresh, but damn these "i skip things" mechanics make it a bit harder.

It might help to talk with the players?

The described situation could be solved by having the adventurers battle a plague spread by fey for their amusement. Give the players the opportunity to gather information on that before they buy those items.

Ring of Sustenance? The sickness may require those who are affected to grave other things. Besides not having to eat, doesn't mean to not feel certain needs.

"The obviously cursed feast, the everwinged spider has prepared is right in front of you! Its enchantment makes it look incredibly delicious make a will save." "Uhm I have a ring that makes me not hungry." "So you haven't eaten in days? Do you know that feeling when youre not hungry but you could absolutely kill for a pizza... roll please."

Boots of spider climbing? Climbing into places draws attention of encounters not normally encountered on the normal path. Like uh... spiders?

And invisibility? Scent, blindsense, tremorsense enough monsters have it. Like spiders.

"I climb up the lonely tower in the morass instead of fighting the guards at the entry." "As you climb up the ruined tower you see movement in its dark crevices and cracked windows. Spiders! Roll for initiative!" "But I am invisible!" "They still have tremorsense and their activity will draw out the fey knight who can cast glitterdust, so I feel a fight might be interesting."

Teleportation? By the level teleportation is available, fighting wolfs in the woods isn't that tempting anymore. Besides if travel is actually needed even against the wishes of players tired of traveling. There are always planes and demiplanes that make teleportation and experience for itself.

The point is that in such cases if the GM doesn't feel he can advertise the thing he deems fun enough to the players (and for some reason can't talkt it out), he can always adjust the setting. In that case it is absolutly necessary to inform players and let them make decisions based on these informations so the experience is a fair and enjoyable one.


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Effect is minimal, but practical. there is no reason not to have things like this in the game. If you want to play a game where those resources matter ban it for that game.


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The ring could probably stand to be more expensive so it doesn't negate the Survival skill, and it could probably stand to lose the part where it even reduces how much sleep you need. Or at least, that part could be saved for an upgraded version of the ring. But otherwise, the ring is fine unless you're playing an extreme survival campaign where that is one of the tenets from the get go, in which case the ring probably doesn't exist in the setting anyway (and neither do Create Water, Create Food, etc).


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Ryan Freire wrote:
So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.

Just like these sort of supply management things aren't fun in day to day life, it's also not fun in table top (most of the time).

I've never really met anyone who wanted to keep track of rations, and water, and amount of time slept who wasn't a GM who wanted to use it punish their players.

It's not fun. And for a modest fee, you get to ignore thing that isn't fun. Assuming your GM doesn't let you ignore things like tracking food and water anyways.


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Random encounters play a role in most of my games, which means occasionally people get interrupted during rest periods. The ring of sustenance trivializes that for casters. The most potent classes don't need magic items that trivialize the few checks on their ability.


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Ban it. It's trivially easy to do so.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
Random encounters play a role in most of my games, which means occasionally people get interrupted during rest periods. The ring of sustenance trivializes that for casters. The most potent classes don't need magic items that trivialize the few checks on their ability.

I 100% disagree with this theory though.

If you want to check spellcasting powers, change the actual spell casting mechanics.

If you're (not you specifically, the generic you) the kind of GM that continually harasses PCs so that spell casters can't use their spells you're being a jerk.

No one should have to worry day to day about whether or not they'll get their resources back. If you want limitations on spell casting power, change the spells themselves.


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Ryan, what level are you seeing your players jump on the Ring of Sustenance?

At the very low levels I can appreciate some serious survivalism based challenges, but I like to phase out those needs, starting with strong resilience to food/water/sleep deprivation at level 5 and culminating in a more supernatural form of sustenance somewhere around level 9 where food and drink become luxuries to indulge in with good company rather than necessities.


Its generally one of the first spellcaster purchases. The 2 hour sleep schedule is invaluable as long as your GM isn't softballing you on random encounters in the wilderness.


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There's softballing and then there's douchebagging. I only give a 5% chance of night attack per night in ordinary 'dangerous wilderness.'

Extraordinarily dangerous wilderness (don't go into the tall grass!) Gets 1 out of 12 per night.


I've never seen D&D or Pathfinder as a game where you play characters to whom scarcity of shelter, food or water, sunburns, cold and similar things should pose a threat to.

You can play that game during the first three levels, after that they should face more serious stuff more. Those things are for the normal people rather than adventurers or aspiring heroes.

Additionally, I think that magical items or effects like the ring of sustenance, endure elements, rope trick and so on provide a solution for the most basic needs (shelter, food, water) so it is only logical that things like those are what magic will be used for as soon as possible.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

There's softballing and then there's douchebagging. I only give a 5% chance of night attack per night in ordinary 'dangerous wilderness.'

Extraordinarily dangerous wilderness (don't go into the tall grass!) Gets 1 out of 12 per night.

So you cut the standard by 2/3 to 3/4 and then treat the recommended encounter rate as douchebagging.

You softball, and thats fine, but you contribute to the ability of casters to have dominance over martials by doing so.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Its generally one of the first spellcaster purchases. The 2 hour sleep schedule is invaluable as long as your GM isn't softballing you on random encounters in the wilderness.

It's also 'softballing' it for the barbarian too who JUST might want rage back. Or the monk. Or pretty much everyone but the fighter/rogue/slayer...

Quite honestly, this is really only an issue in a 'stuck on an island after a shipwreck' type game. For most other games, it's not an issue IMO. By the time you can get this item, you have spells to make the 'random ninja attack' nightly encounters negligible.


dragonhunterq wrote:

Ban it. It's trivially easy to do so.

You're talking to someone who believes banning a core option is badwrongfun.

For them, it is not that simple.


Ryan Freire wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

There's softballing and then there's douchebagging. I only give a 5% chance of night attack per night in ordinary 'dangerous wilderness.'

Extraordinarily dangerous wilderness (don't go into the tall grass!) Gets 1 out of 12 per night.

So you cut the standard by 2/3 to 3/4 and then treat the recommended encounter rate as douchebagging.

You softball, and thats fine, but you contribute to the ability of casters to have dominance over martials by doing so.

Would you please show me where a standard is listed?

As to my 'softballing causing caster dominance...'

A: these are primarily issues at levels before casters dominate and...

B: I'm an extreme homebrewer who solves system problems at the system level. Meaning my high level martials look more like comic book heroes or martially oriented Xianxia 'Cultivators' than low level adventures.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

There's softballing and then there's douchebagging. I only give a 5% chance of night attack per night in ordinary 'dangerous wilderness.'

Extraordinarily dangerous wilderness (don't go into the tall grass!) Gets 1 out of 12 per night.

So you cut the standard by 2/3 to 3/4 and then treat the recommended encounter rate as douchebagging.

You softball, and thats fine, but you contribute to the ability of casters to have dominance over martials by doing so.

Would you please show me where a standard is listed?

As to my 'softballing causing caster dominance...'

A: these are primarily issues at levels before casters dominate and...

B: I'm an extreme homebrewer who solves system problems at the system level. Meaning my high level martials look more like comic book heroes or martially oriented Xianxia 'Cultivators' than low level adventures.

Rise of the runelords 20% day/night Kingmaker 15% day/night


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Dunno about you guys, but I enjoyed the survival mechanics in Ironfang Invasion.

Some people just like to play Fallout in Survival mode! Others don't. I'm fine with banning this item or making it very hard to get when the game warrants it. Because it DOES hurt some adventures! Some high level survival stuff can be pretty exciting, and was often explored in old D&D editions.
There's pretty robust rules about wilderness survival in PF, and it can make some places in Golarion really scary! Most players trivialize most environments, but think some are worth experiencing them at full power.

PFS does not have adventures based on survival as far as I know, so moot there.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

There's softballing and then there's douchebagging. I only give a 5% chance of night attack per night in ordinary 'dangerous wilderness.'

Extraordinarily dangerous wilderness (don't go into the tall grass!) Gets 1 out of 12 per night.

So you cut the standard by 2/3 to 3/4 and then treat the recommended encounter rate as douchebagging.

You softball, and thats fine, but you contribute to the ability of casters to have dominance over martials by doing so.

There are often specific suggestions for chance of an encounter in published APs, but the only real defined general information I can find is in Ultimate Campaign. It suggests that for a given day or hex of exploration, there's a 10% chance of encountering some form of hazard, or a 40% chance of encountering a monster encounter. It doesn't say that the monsters always strike at night, so assuming that all times of day are equally likely, that puts it at 13.3% chance of encountering a monster during an 8 hour period of rest (for a "standard" hex, some terrains modify this). The key takeaway here is that for a given day, random encounters aren't that likely, and even if you do need 8 hours of rest, and you get a random encounter some time in the middle, the expectation is that you wake up, deal with the problem, then go back to bed. According to the core rulebook's magic rules, this just adds 1 extra hour to the total rest time needed for a wizard to prepare their spells. The chances of another random encounter during that rest are likely small, so there shouldn't be much trouble.

And finally, if you're going to keep hammering your party with encounters every hour, you're not really having random encounters, but running an adventure that specifically is not allowing rest. That kind of play makes for a fun adventure from time to time, but that should impact all of your players by preventing them from replenishing daily resources as well as gaining fatigue from lack of sleep.

I think if your players are always grabbing this item to combat what looks like should be a rare problem, that points more at your GMing style than a problem with the core assumption. If it bothers you for your games, disallow the item (or increase the price) in your games.

Anecdotal Edit: When I played Reign of Winter, my elven wizard almost died one day because it was cold. He was caught without the proper clothing for cold weather, failed a string of saves and the party was forced to stop, make camp and devote effort to keep me alive. It was fun and a great story... for level 1. You can bet that as soon as I was able my wizard picked up the spells he needed to survive in that environment so he could laugh off a snowstorm later. For this example, if the GM just said "endure elements doesn't exist in this campaign because that invalidates the threat" how is that much different than saying "cold weather gear doesn't exist because it makes cold weather too easy" or "armor doesn't exist because then monsters aren't as big of a threat" or "alchemist fire and fireball and torches don't exist because otherwise trolls are too easy." Obviously, these sound absurd, but it's really the same issue. And if you want to make a game where the country is controlled by an evil troll empire and all forms of fire are illegal, then it would make sense for those things to be hard to come by, and it makes a cool story hook for searching them out.

Shadow Lodge

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Ryan Freire wrote:
Its generally one of the first spellcaster purchases. The 2 hour sleep schedule is invaluable as long as your GM isn't softballing you on random encounters in the wilderness.
Um, you do realize that random nighttime encounters haven't really impacted casters for a very, very long time?
  • Divine casters do not require any specific rest period before preparing spells.
  • Arcane casters require eight hours of rest, but there is no requirement that it be eight continuous hours.

Basically, throwing a 'midnight attack' at the party doesn't impact the casters any worse than the martials: As long as everyone can get back to sleep afterwards, you should be fine.

Having once played in a D&D campaign where the GM insisted on a '1 in 6' chance of random encounter per hour of camping, I'm personally fine with the fact that they eased up on the spell prep/refresh rules: They just aren't any fun.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
Its generally one of the first spellcaster purchases.

I have to say, I see a LOT of different games, players and DM's and this hasn't been my experience. The one's I've seen are usually found or one's I bought to ignore food. I've rarely seen consistent removal of players abilities because of lack of sleep.

IMO, you're seeing a run on those rings BECAUSE you keep interrupting sleep: for people not going out of their way to mess with casters abilities, they aren't going to see the issue you see. Most people don't run into the 2+ encounters every night required to mess up your sleep enough to prevent regaining spells.

ChibiNyan wrote:
Some people just like to play Fallout in Survival mode!

Well it can be fun to play a game like that but IMO it gets old if EVERY game is like that. and, IMO, is his players are trying to get the ring as soon as humanly possible, they might not like that kind of game as much as he does.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

Ban it. It's trivially easy to do so.

You're talking to someone who believes banning a core option is badwrongfun.

For them, it is not that simple.

I feel like "Shut down the Magic-Marts" will be a pretty workable solution for a lot of these sorts of issues in PF2, since you no longer need to keep buying magic trinkets for your stats and defense.


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graystone wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
its an incredibly cheap removal of some very integral aspects of existence.

I'm not seeing that as a bad thing.

Ryan Freire wrote:
Its also a contributing factor to the CM/D
it does? I don't see how unless you are the kind of group that regularly steals familiars, sunders component pouches and pickpockets holy symbols...

Thats 2 things now gray you better be careful or you'l have to grow a santa beard.

The one character that I was really glad to have a ring of sustenance was my storm giant (and yes I know this is not a typical canon character) but It saved me a ton on food bills. I think I had a wizard wear one for awhile before I got something better. I would prefer to keep this item in the game admitably for traditions sake.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Errant Mercenary wrote:

"I'll buy ring of sustenance, boots of spider climbing, have scroll of invisibility, I can teleport us over any terrain...."

"ok you get to the bad guy and you can do the main battle"

GAME OVER

Exageration aplenty, but these things constantly trivialise many of the tribulations of parties, especially when the players have used or know these items already. It is always hard to keep something fresh, but damn these "i skip things" mechanics make it a bit harder.

intelligent use of resources, plus micromanaging rations, water etc is not fun this is a high fantasy game, not Oregon Trail, if you want that, months of struggling overland to get anywhere, with chracters dying of dysentery on the way, more power to you, but I'd rather spend the time on the adventure, not a medieval disease and survival cannibalism simulator :p


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Ryan Freire wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

There's softballing and then there's douchebagging. I only give a 5% chance of night attack per night in ordinary 'dangerous wilderness.'

Extraordinarily dangerous wilderness (don't go into the tall grass!) Gets 1 out of 12 per night.

So you cut the standard by 2/3 to 3/4 and then treat the recommended encounter rate as douchebagging.

You softball, and thats fine, but you contribute to the ability of casters to have dominance over martials by doing so.

Would you please show me where a standard is listed?

As to my 'softballing causing caster dominance...'

A: these are primarily issues at levels before casters dominate and...

B: I'm an extreme homebrewer who solves system problems at the system level. Meaning my high level martials look more like comic book heroes or martially oriented Xianxia 'Cultivators' than low level adventures.

Rise of the runelords 20% day/night Kingmaker 15% day/night

I don't recall these from RotRL [it's been a while since I GM'd it] but I have to ask, does it says /night is it explicitly stating that's the odds of an overnight ambush at camp?

Reading that percentage right now suggests to me those are the odds of coming up on a random encounter while traveling. Camping cautiously is far less likely to draw attention [and from a realistic perspective (as opposed to the strictest rules reading) more difficult to actually ambush if there is someone at watch since there isn't all the noise of motion and forward focus that happens during travel.


one month of decent living costs 10 gold. the ring costs 2500 gp. that's 20 years worth of decent living.


Zautos' wrote:
one month of decent living costs 10 gold. the ring costs 2500 gp. that's 20 years worth of decent living.

2 years if your a Storm giant! and they live to like 300+ so for sure worth it for him!


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Zautos' wrote:
one month of decent living costs 10 gold. the ring costs 2500 gp. that's 20 years worth of decent living.
2 years if your a Storm giant! and they live to like 300+ so for sure worth it for him!

LOL Or a T-rex pet! That ring saves you the logistical nightmare of figuring out how to bring enough cows for it to eat.


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graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Zautos' wrote:
one month of decent living costs 10 gold. the ring costs 2500 gp. that's 20 years worth of decent living.
2 years if your a Storm giant! and they live to like 300+ so for sure worth it for him!
LOL Or a T-rex pet! That ring saves you the logistical nightmare of figuring out how to bring enough cows for it to eat.

He had a Roc for a pet/mount. You know I probably now that I think about it kept a better eye on him. at least near towns cause I pretty well let him feed himself... o well not like I had any use for horses.

Hmm Fun math game for someone that cares for that sort of thing figure out what size category pet makes it cheaper to just buy the ring then feed the pet!


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Ryan Freire wrote:
So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.

I think 2,500 gp is too cheap relative to other rings. In our medium to high level parties everyone has one.


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.
I think 2,500 gp is too cheap relative to other rings. In our medium to high level parties everyone has one.

Really?

They're all giving up that precious ring slot for such minor benefits?


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Yes, we have a six person party. We can have three on watch while three sleep then swap. It lets us rest in dungeons or other hostile areas with much less risk.


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Meh until you got some levels under your belt most rings aren't that great.


Friendly Neighborhood Glabrezu wrote:

You think a low level magic item that negates the need for food and water and allows you to sleep for 1/4 the normal amount of time contributes to caster vs. martial issues?

So do you also have problems with the create water cantrip? How about the sustaining spoon which can feed the whole party for just over half the cost of 4 rings? As for sleep, I'm pretty sure your barbarian and monk won't be very happy if they don't get their beauty rest, replenishing their rage and ki, not to mention slapping them with the fatigued condition for the day.

I think you're off base with the impact of this item, and what you really want is a low magic setting.

I think the rationale for why they hurt martials is that they negate some of the possible ways a martial character could contribute to the party. Someone playing a Ranger probably wants their survival skills to matter somewhat. A simple magic item means that they might as well not bother past low levels, where their skills are most unreliable anyway.


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I suppose but are we outfitting the entire party with the ring and their mounts and pets + any other random npcs that are accompanying them. Plus survival still has a few other uses besides foraging.


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You usually don't even wear a Ring of Sustenance if you are out for efficiency. That ring slot could have been something so much better. There are grade 1 spells that negate the need to sleep for the whole party.

I understand that the OP wants to get rid of those spells as well, but personally I already hate random encounters for being a waste of time more often than not. They don't become more fun if you take away the tools to make them a little bit more bearable.

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