Kill the ring of sustenance.


Prerelease Discussion

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kyrt-ryder wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.
I think 2,500 gp is too cheap relative to other rings. In our medium to high level parties everyone has one.

Really?

They're all giving up that precious ring slot for such minor benefits?

Now to be fair; There's 9 other fingers for you to use in PF2. So the restriction isn't going to play that much of a part going forward. Assuming it works the same way.

Though that does make me think, with no "wear limit" I wonder if any rings won't be transferred due to that? Far to late for me to go look them up, I'll check tomorrow


It never really impacted my game, but it always put me at another Level of "how the hell does this world work?"
It always put me in a strange place where I imagine how that would Impact your character - you basically shut down or Change the Basic Elements of life for those People. Eating and sleeping are such Basic functions of humanity that just shutting them off would lead to extremely strange behaviour.
Sleep especially has very few Things to do with getting rested physically and a lot with giving your brain time to Digest/sort experiences. If you quarter that time, that either means that this cheap ring is seriously Messing with your head or the guy will go crazy.
As I said, just like the create water cantrips, the feede everyone spoon and many many more Things in Magic rich worlds it sometimes messes with Basic Society so much it takes me out of the game.


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DerNils wrote:
Sleep especially has very few Things to do with getting rested physically and a lot with giving your brain time to Digest/sort experiences. If you quarter that time, that either means that this cheap ring is seriously Messing with your head or the guy will go crazy.

In real life there are at least meditation techniques that cut down the amount of necessary sleep. They can't replace it completely, and I doubt they can cut it down by 6 hours, but it's a step into this direction.

Quote:
As I said, just like the create water cantrips, the feede everyone spoon and many many more Things in Magic rich worlds it sometimes messes with Basic Society so much it takes me out of the game.

While the ring is relatively cheap by adventurers' standards, it's still extremely expensive for a commoner. There is a very limited amount of people who can actually afford such a ring.

Liberty's Edge

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SheepishEidolon wrote:
While the ring is relatively cheap by adventurers' standards, it's still extremely expensive for a commoner. There is a very limited amount of people who can actually afford such a ring.

Indeed! Owning your own Inn lock stock and barrel is cheaper than a Ring of Sustenance.

And Create Water doesn't change the economy anywhere where they don't charge for water (which is actually most places...it just makes desert economies less water based), while the Sustaining Spoon only feeds 4 people per day and costs more than two full farms (ie: enough farmland to grow crops in a year to feed way more than four people for a year if utilized properly).

I don't care much about whether they get rid of the Ring of Sustenance, but it doesn't actually mess with the world assumptions inn any meaningful way (nor does most magic when examined with an eye to comparative pricing).


I always stop to think about that stuff anyway - the economy of Fantasy worlds with adventurers in them also makes no sense.

As you correctly stated, commoners would never have Access to this, but how Long/often do PC's actually interact with commoners. Once in a while I like to think about what rich People are actually able to do and it blows my mind. Sickness, Injury, Death, drug abuse, all become a question of Money. Political Assassination is a ridiculous concept as Long as there are spellcasters around.

The rulers of this world would be so detached from the normal populace that they basically become a different species.

Ramblng mode off - I don't Need stuff like that, and it can become a hassle to Keep track of what PC's are capable off once it significantly deviates from our own experience. And I am used to this for fights and other stuff, but changing your Lifecycle can throw you a curveball from time to time.

I also don't think they add anything interesting to the game. I mean, how often does Basic eating and drinking and sleep time come up? When it does, it's because of the premise of the Adventure. Otherwise they are ignored. SO it either cuts me off from having these Adventure premises (trek through the desert, etc.) or it has Zero Impact on gameplay. That does not Sound like a good item to me.

Liberty's Edge

DerNils wrote:
I always stop to think about that stuff anyway - the economy of Fantasy worlds with adventurers in them also makes no sense.

Eh. Adventurers of the sort that PCs are tend to be super rare. And thus not screw up the economy too much.

DerNils wrote:
As you correctly stated, commoners would never have Access to this, but how Long/often do PC's actually interact with commoners. Once in a while I like to think about what rich People are actually able to do and it blows my mind. Sickness, Injury, Death, drug abuse, all become a question of Money.

Well, that's true to a large extent in the real world, too. And Remove Disease and most other such spells short of Raise Dead (which is too expensive), while pricey, are actually within the price range of most professionals. They're a significant fraction of their yearly profits, but still affordable if necessary to save a life or the like.

DerNils wrote:
Political Assassination is a ridiculous concept as Long as there are spellcasters around.

This is actually not true. A lot of Raise Dead uses explicitly fail. the players get to use it with fair reliability but its reliability for NPCs is nowhere near as good.

DerNils wrote:
The rulers of this world would be so detached from the normal populace that they basically become a different species.

Not really. Most stuff is within the price range of most middle class people. Raise Dead and Regenerate are exceptions, but given the failure rate of the former that doesn't make a big enough difference to make them seem like a different species.

They've certainly got access to things most people don't but the degree of difference is seldom bigger than that between the rich and poor in many places in the real world.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:


This is actually not true. A lot of Raise Dead uses explicitly fail. the players get to use it with fair reliability but its reliability for NPCs is nowhere near as good.

No idea where that impression comes from. The only way for Raise Dead to fail is if the Soul is unwilling to come back.

Deadmanwalking wrote:


DerNils wrote:
The rulers of this world would be so detached from the normal populace that they basically become a different species.

Not really. Most stuff is within the price range of most middle class people. Raise Dead and Regenerate are exceptions, but given the failure rate of the former that doesn't make a big enough difference to make them seem like a different species.

They've certainly got access to things most people don't but the degree of difference is seldom bigger than that between the rich and poor in many places in the real world.

Coming back to the original premise of the Ring of Sustenance. Once you are medium succesful in your Business, you stop caring about eating, drinking and sleeping. Accidents that don't kill you outright are completely without consequence. Your daily Activity cycle increases by about 50% A year in you don't even remember what toilets are for.

On Golarion, Marie-Antoinette would not have said "Let them eat cake", she would have asked "What is eating?"


I'm fine if its not easily available, maybe one of your few precious items at high levels, you're the guy/gal that can ignore normal requirements.

Liberty's Edge

DerNils wrote:
No idea where that impression comes from. The only way for Raise Dead to fail is if the Soul is unwilling to come back.

Nope. It explicitly also notes that their soul must be free and, for NPCs, that's entirely at the GM's discretion. Several adventures make a plot point of this and its gone into in a few articles on the afterlife and the like.

DerNils wrote:
Coming back to the original premise of the Ring of Sustenance. Once you are medium succesful in your Business, you stop caring about eating, drinking and sleeping. Accidents that don't kill you outright are completely without consequence. Your daily Activity cycle increases by about 50% A year in you don't even remember what toilets are for.

Well, firstly, most successful single businesses make maybe 4k a year before expenses. Spending all your year's money on such an item is a very...unique usage.

I mean, a Ring of Sustenance is 2500 gp. Good, high quality, meals every day for a year are 182.5 GP. So this investment would totally pay off in 13 and 1/2 years. Assuming you never ate despite eating being enjoyable.

More valuable is the lack of needing to sleep...except that the vast majority of people do sleep and won't want to deal with you in the middle of the night, so the only work you can do at night is work not involving people. Still, even if it does let you work two shifts, that only adds another 600-700 gp or so a year. That does pay for itself in as little as 3 years (combined with the food savings), but only by working 16 hour days. That doesn't seem like an activity most successful business people who wanted to enjoy their success would engage in.

Especially since just buying a farm and having someone to work it costs you less and adds a couple of thousand GP per year to your income rather than the 600-700.

This is absolutely something some people obsessed with personal efficiency would do, or some really and profoundly wealthy people who wanted to. But everyone? No.

DerNils wrote:
On Golarion, Marie-Antoinette would not have said "Let them eat cake", she would have asked "What is eating?"

Totally a side note, but that's actually a myth. It's propaganda that was originally attributed to a previous French Queen before poor Marie-Antoinette and dates to before her birth.

But also, that's very unlikely. In the long run a Ring of Sustenance is an efficiency measure. It saves you money and time. The whole thing people were upset about in regards to the French Aristocracy was that they engaged in conspicuous consumption and indulgence while the poor starved.

You wouldn't have decadent nobility with such Rings. They like their feasts and naps too much. You're more likely top see a Philosopher-King wearing a hair shirt with such an item than one well dressed in silk, y'know?


Aren't all magic items options you can choose to put in your game or not?

Will you get upset when other GM's house rule one back in if you remove it?

This is so trivial, just don't put it in your game


KujakuDM wrote:

Aren't all magic items options you can choose to put in your game or not?

Will you get upset when other GM's house rule one back in if you remove it?

This is so trivial, just don't put it in your game

I think/hope magic items are completely optional.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.
I think 2,500 gp is too cheap relative to other rings. In our medium to high level parties everyone has one.

Really?

They're all giving up that precious ring slot for such minor benefits?

No joke, my level 20 psychic in PFS had a ring of sustenance that he wore from early in his career...to stave off the munchies. He was Psychedelia discipline.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ring of Sustenance is considered useless item in my party ._. Like "it wastes ring slot" useless, I'm only one who uses them because I'm too lazy to keep track of rations.

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It's been years since I've seen someone buy a ring of sustenance - maybe since 3.0 days? It does to tend to get kept when found, however.

My players take precautions by mid levels to make camping random encounters mostly a non-issue.

Also, if you feel the ring invalidates Survival your PCs must not use tracking much. When I have a maxed out Survival character I'm constantly asking the GM about traffic and monster movements. The DCs don't go up very fast - for example, rolling a 35 lets you track an ant that crossed a stone floor a week ago - easily within the power of a mid level character who rolls well. You can get a lot of good information about "active" dungeon areas with a quick Survival roll.


Serisan wrote:
No joke, my level 20 psychic in PFS had a ring of sustenance that he wore from early in his career...to stave off the munchies. He was Psychedelia discipline.

Nice, I am picturing Shaggy, the Occultist.


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Weather Report wrote:
Serisan wrote:
No joke, my level 20 psychic in PFS had a ring of sustenance that he wore from early in his career...to stave off the munchies. He was Psychedelia discipline.
Nice, I am picturing Shaggy, the Occultist.

I suppose Venture-Captain Mystic Mickey with the Sick Sticky Icky is not that far off from Shaggy. The whole Venture-Captain thing was a lot like getting promoted to manager at Taco Bell - he started feeling responsible for his junior agents.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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I feel like there's a few issues here.

ring of sustenance abuse: I think this is heavily, heavily dependent on play style. There's no rules for sleep deprivation that I'm aware of, so that factor actually has no mechanical benefit, technically. In most games, the PCs have adequate food and the only time starvation/thirst rules are tracked are in extreme situations like desert travel. I'd say in this case, if a player has found or crafted a ring of sustenance to help him in this case, he's earned it with his expenditure of resources. The PCs may pressure him to do harder tasks since he's not suffering from dehydration, etc. and/or he has to take the night watch alone because everyone else needs to sleep. In survival based APs like Kingmaker, I am not aware of the ring being readily available. Settlement rules are clear about having only a limited number of items available. While it's cheap-ish, many smaller villages can't even afford to have it. You'd basically have to craft it, and if you're willing to put the time and resources into it, I don't see an issue with that. I've only seen one character in my day use ring of sustenance more for flavor than anything (for lack of flavor ;) ); it was a high level campaign and everyone else was chowing down on heroes feast every morning and it didn't really make a bit of a difference in the game (heroes feast did, the ring didn't. I'd consider the latter more "broken" but also didn't begrudge the high level players the spell and in a high level game where devils are literally trying to build Dis-on-earth, what to have for breakfast wasn't really the biggest thing worrying the PCs.) If there IS an issue in playtesting, I'd say a cost adjustment or a depowering (remove the sleep deprivation thing since it doesn't matter anyway) would be fine.

Items that make adventuring easier: Some people, including many of Paizo's game designers, don't like these. I do--in reasonable quantity and for high level campaigns. If you can bend reality in other ways, you can conjure yourself a nice safe campsite. I like the flavor some of these things have--it's one of those little details that makes magic in the world feel like it's part of the setting , not just a class feature for combat, and at high levels, it's a means of handwaving smaller details so the PCs can focus on the world-shattering issues they should be dealing with by they are at high level. (Also, one of the most fun my party had was with a magic self-heating griddle that they used to make bacon every morning. Sometimes those things are just fun.) I do think these items need to be rare, hard to access at low level, and if they are limited by making them consumable or require a resonance or spell point to spend, that's fine. For survival campaigns, obviously the availability of these items should be kept in check, but given those kind of games tend to start low level, there should be no way PCs access "easy survival" items unless the GM explicitly lets them. I'm not saying ban the items, I'm saying the rules in the game allow for making that unlikely to happen. If they never have the downtime to craft, if there are no settlements to shop at, if monsters never drop the treasure--they don't get it. So it's no problem.

I'd be curious from the OP if he has a specific example where such an item really wrecked the story. I'd like to know how the PC got the item to begin with, and what was hoped for that didn't happen because of the presence of the ring.


Weather Report wrote:
KujakuDM wrote:

Aren't all magic items options you can choose to put in your game or not?

Will you get upset when other GM's house rule one back in if you remove it?

This is so trivial, just don't put it in your game

I think/hope magic items are completely optional.

If that's the case, PF2 will be so divorced from Pathfinder it's unlikely that the claim that it "feels like Golarian" will hold water.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.

Few of the wildernesses the games I play and the games I run are uncharted. Usually something is known to be in that wilderness that the party has to stop. They do think a little and will purchase horses, tents, bedrolls, and trail rations, all of which are cheaper than rings of sustenance.

I don't see how a ring of sustenance helps spellcasters more than martials. Spellcasters like a 15-minute workday, which leaves plenty of time for eating and sleeping. Martials are the ones who adventure so long that they need to camp out.

For example, in the 4th module, Fortress of the Stone Giants, of Rise of the Runelords, the party was conducting small attacks against the fortress and then teleporting to a comfortable inn in Magnimar for the rest of the day.

Large parts of that adventure path were in towns and cities, so the party could usually stay at an inn without teleporting.

In the Iron Gods adventure path, the first module, half of the third module, and the fifth module were in towns, so once again, food was not a problem. The second module, Lords of Rust, was in a shantytown area inhabited former bandits and other refugees, but the party moved in pretending they were refugees and joined the local economy--I had to invent that local economy myself since the module writer had not expected that ruse.

Only in the Jade Regent adventure path was food and sleep an issue. The third module, The Hungry Storm, was a three-month journey across the polar ice cap. The caravan had 24 people besides the party, so the martial characters went out hunting every day to feed them. They also had wagons of grain to feed the aurochs that pulled the wagons.

Three characters in the party purchased rings of sustenance for that polar journey, but their goal was to spend their extra time in the evening crafting magic items. I asked in the forums where they might find Raw Materials for Crafting Magic Items and followed a suggestion by bfobar that they could forage the raw materials off the land. Thus, the martials on the hunting parties became more important to the people with the rings, because they were a necessary part of the crafting process.

The caravan also had a magic item, sashimono of comfort, that protected them from the icy cold weather, so the environmental challenge was bypassed. The hunters wore cold-weather outfits while far from the sashimono, which I ruled protected from polar weather despite the bad description on them that they only increased the save against cold weather.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
And Create Water doesn't change the economy anywhere where they don't charge for water (which is actually most places...it just makes desert economies less water based), while the Sustaining Spoon only feeds 4 people per day and costs more than two full farms (ie: enough farmland to grow crops in a year to feed way more than four people for a year if utilized properly).

The 5th module, Palace of Fallen Stars, of Iron Gods takes place in the city of Starfall. The gazeteer article about Starfall mentioned that the government had a monopoly on water: all water had to be purchased from government-licensed vendors. My party, rather than going to the palace as the module intended, went to the deadly slum named Killbox to help the poor. I filled in the background for such neighborhoods; for example, city patrols destroyed illegal rooftop rain collectors. Ground-level gardens in the rich neighborhoods were fine, but rooftop gardens in the crowded poor neighborhoods counted as rain collectors. Second-level clerics illegally cast Create Water for their impoverished congregations and in the areas of greatest hardship they cast Purify Food and Drink on urine to provide pure water that did not disappear in 24 hours.

The party could afford to stay at good inns in Starfall, so they saw this only because they tried to help the poor.


Mekkis wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
KujakuDM wrote:

Aren't all magic items options you can choose to put in your game or not?

Will you get upset when other GM's house rule one back in if you remove it?

This is so trivial, just don't put it in your game

I think/hope magic items are completely optional.
If that's the case, PF2 will be so divorced from Pathfinder it's unlikely that the claim that it "feels like Golarian" will hold water.

Pathfinder and Golarian are two different things, the game should support play with or without magic items.


Weather Report wrote:
Mekkis wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
KujakuDM wrote:

Aren't all magic items options you can choose to put in your game or not?

Will you get upset when other GM's house rule one back in if you remove it?

This is so trivial, just don't put it in your game

I think/hope magic items are completely optional.
If that's the case, PF2 will be so divorced from Pathfinder it's unlikely that the claim that it "feels like Golarian" will hold water.
Pathfinder and Golarian are two different things, the game should support play with or without magic items.

Not only that, Golarion is encapsulated primarily in the culture and history and geography, not the Magic Item Economy.

I'm not big on published settings preferring to custom-craft new settings spontaneously in new games, but I've run my heavily homebrewed frankenPF in Golarion and it still feels like Golarion.

Said homebrew includes very very little 'wealth gear power (basically consumables is all.' Any permanent superior item [be it magic, tech or biological] is accounted for in the level powerscale. Story acquisitions vary, but it's not an economy it's simply a facet of the character's personal power.

Liberty's Edge

Mathmuse wrote:

The 5th module, Palace of Fallen Stars, of Iron Gods takes place in the city of Starfall. The gazeteer article about Starfall mentioned that the government had a monopoly on water: all water had to be purchased from government-licensed vendors. My party, rather than going to the palace as the module intended, went to the deadly slum named Killbox to help the poor. I filled in the background for such neighborhoods; for example, city patrols destroyed illegal rooftop rain collectors. Ground-level gardens in the rich neighborhoods were fine, but rooftop gardens in the crowded poor neighborhoods counted as rain collectors. Second-level clerics illegally cast Create Water for their impoverished congregations and in the areas of greatest hardship they cast Purify Food and Drink on urine to provide pure water that did not disappear in 24 hours.

The party could afford to stay at good inns in Starfall, so they saw this only because they tried to help the poor.

This is very cool. :)

It's also, in universe, very specifically an artificially created monopoly enforced by people who will actively stop you if you try and circumvent it. So it doesn't actually contradict my point that Create Water doesn't effect the economy in regards to water all that much in most places.


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DeathQuaker wrote:
There's no rules for sleep deprivation that I'm aware of
FAQs wrote:

Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?

The character is fatigued.


Weather Report wrote:
Mekkis wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
KujakuDM wrote:

Aren't all magic items options you can choose to put in your game or not?

Will you get upset when other GM's house rule one back in if you remove it?

This is so trivial, just don't put it in your game

I think/hope magic items are completely optional.
If that's the case, PF2 will be so divorced from Pathfinder it's unlikely that the claim that it "feels like Golarian" will hold water.
Pathfinder and Golarian are two different things, the game should support play with or without magic items.

Some parts of PF1 and, assumedly, all of PF2, will disagree with the statement that Pathfinder and Golarion are different entities. Of which has nothing to do with making magic items optional for the system.

Of course, if magic items are optional, then that means they probably don't have a major impact on the game, which means magic items aren't special, which means you might as well all be adventuring naked and be just as effective.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Matthew Downie wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
There's no rules for sleep deprivation that I'm aware of
FAQs wrote:

Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?

The character is fatigued.

Thanks. Unfortunately, the FAQs aren't in the rulebooks or linked to the PRD and a lot of average players aren't aware of them. Good to know though!


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
if magic items are optional, then that means they probably don't have a major impact on the game, which means magic items aren't special, which means you might as well all be adventuring naked and be just as effective.

Good.

Magic items as an optional story element are so much more fun than magic items as must have gear.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
if magic items are optional, then that means they probably don't have a major impact on the game, which means magic items aren't special, which means you might as well all be adventuring naked and be just as effective.

Good.

Magic items as an optional story element are so much more fun than magic items as must have gear.

Magic items as must-have gear is good.

Having those must-have items always restricted to "the Big 6" because the game assumes you have them, and only them, is not.

P.S. You should play a Vow of Poverty Monk if that is your ideal.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
if magic items are optional, then that means they probably don't have a major impact on the game, which means magic items aren't special, which means you might as well all be adventuring naked and be just as effective.

Good.

Magic items as an optional story element are so much more fun than magic items as must have gear.

Magic items as must-have gear is good.

Having those must-have items always restricted to "the Big 6" because the game assumes you have them, and only them, is not.

P.S. You should play a Vow of Poverty Monk if that is your ideal.

A vow of poverty (be it monk, paladin, cleric, ranger, wizard or other) is actually a viable option in my games.

Games where wealth is a choice of pursuit for individual characters without impact on their Personal Power. Where grandpa's ordinary steel sword is good enough 1-20, but where a character who wants their personal Excalibur* can acquire such superior gear as part of their level up growth and can choose to use it as is or keep feeding it more power as they rise in level and scope.

*Placeholder for any piece of iconic superior gear.


I wonder if your hardcore optimization crowd is going to see the ring slot as expendable (you get two of them) but would hesitate to spend a point of resonance to make the ring work.

Liberty's Edge

Ryan Freire wrote:
So beyond the standard magic items, and stat boosters, i'd really like to see some of these other magic items bite the dust. Leading off with the ring of sustenance and all of its permutations. It should take more than a couple grand to kill sleep requirements and eating requirements dead. Cheap magic that removes environmental threat, supply management, and time management needs to go. PC's should have to think a little before traipsing off to the uncharted wilderness for an adventure.

This argument works solely based on the idea WBL and magic prices remain the same between editions.

Plus, with resonance, the cost isn't money, it's one of your limited number of slots.


RumpinRufus wrote:
I don't see the issue with Ring of Sustenance, as I'm not really interested in playing "Eating Simulator 2nd Edition".

Honestly, I kind of am. There was a time when, whenever I created a new character, his starting equipment would include items such as a waterskin, a week or two of trail rations, a tent, a sleeping bag, etc. After many years of playing (in the same group, mostly with the same GM), I stopped bothering. Because I noticed that these issues literally NEVER come up in game. When and what does my character eat? I have no idea. How does he sleep comfortably? I dunno, magic I guess. Sleeping generally consists of, "You rest for the night. The next morning..."

These days, my starting equipment consists of nothing more than clothing, weapons, armor, and a coin purse. And spell components if a caster. Oh, and a backpack, but that's mostly just to put loot into, because it starts out empty.


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Doodpants wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
I don't see the issue with Ring of Sustenance, as I'm not really interested in playing "Eating Simulator 2nd Edition".

Honestly, I kind of am. There was a time when, whenever I created a new character, his starting equipment would include items such as a waterskin, a week or two of trail rations, a tent, a sleeping bag, etc. After many years of playing (in the same group, mostly with the same GM), I stopped bothering. Because I noticed that these issues literally NEVER come up in game. When and what does my character eat? I have no idea. How does he sleep comfortably? I dunno, magic I guess. Sleeping generally consists of, "You rest for the night. The next morning..."

These days, my starting equipment consists of nothing more than clothing, weapons, armor, and a coin purse. And spell components if a caster. Oh, and a backpack, but that's mostly just to put loot into, because it starts out empty.

And what's the problem?


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The problem is that poster enjoys survivalism type challenges and wants to be immersed in Roughing It, but their GM is handwaving something they enjoy.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I never track meals anyway.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
The problem is that poster enjoys survivalism type challenges and wants to be immersed in Roughing It, but their GM is handwaving something they enjoy.

It's not even that I want to be immersed in hard-core survivalism type challenges; it's the fact that the issues of food and comfortable rest are ignored to the point that I can completely neglect to equip my character for such necessities and never be called out on it, which breaks the verisimilitude. I want to play a role-playing game, not a video-gamey series of combats or dungeon crawls, and I feel that these types of real-world practical concerns should at least come up and have to be addressed.


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Doodpants wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
The problem is that poster enjoys survivalism type challenges and wants to be immersed in Roughing It, but their GM is handwaving something they enjoy.
It's not even that I want to be immersed in hard-core survivalism type challenges; it's the fact that the issues of food and comfortable rest are ignored to the point that I can completely neglect to equip my character for such necessities and never be called out on it, which breaks the verisimilitude. I want to play a role-playing game, not a video-gamey series of combats or dungeon crawls, and I feel that these types of real-world practical concerns should at least come up and have to be addressed.

Thing is all those concerns are about as trivial as it comes. Food you can just throw a handful of gold pieces at the general store and have a week or so of trail mix and another gold piece gets you your bedroll and other mundane needs (god forbid anyone has Survival too). The difference between ignoring the problem and dealing with it is literally a handful of gp. Even at level 1 that's nothing. You want to buy a bedroll and weeks of trail rations and mark them off every day? Go ahead, not like you or the party are going to miss the sp and if it helps your verisimilitude power to you.

Liberty's Edge

I like making food an issue in roleplaying games. It was such a big part of Lord of the Rings, and spending two weeks riding on horseback between towns would stretch rations.

It's tricky in RAW Pathfinder, not just because of the ring of sustenance, but because you can buy a bag of holding and fill it to the brim with food. Because you have so much gold, spending 100 on weeks of rations is nothing.

Campaigns that play like Conan stories (or Firefly episodes) where the party starts each adventure broke and in need of a job just don't work.

Hopefully that changes.


Don't forget : having a ring of sustenance or another item like this takes one of your magic item slots. I feel this is already a "fee" to be able to not eat or resist your environment. The amount of time one of my player has to choose 2 out of 3 cool rings or one out of two cool capes is too dam' high !


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Of course, if magic items are optional, then that means they probably don't have a major impact on the game, which means magic items aren't special, which means you might as well all be adventuring naked and be just as effective.

Quite the opposite, as 5th Ed has shown.


Almarane wrote:
Don't forget : having a ring of sustenance or another item like this takes one of your magic item slots. I feel this is already a "fee" to be able to not eat or resist your environment. The amount of time one of my player has to choose 2 out of 3 cool rings or one out of two cool capes is too dam' high !

Not anymore! No Limit in PF2.

Well I mean Resonance, but you can have 10 rings, 4 boots, 5 Cloaks, and 2 gloves.

Dunno how you fit them all on, but to my knowledge you will be able to to do that.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
Almarane wrote:
Don't forget : having a ring of sustenance or another item like this takes one of your magic item slots. I feel this is already a "fee" to be able to not eat or resist your environment. The amount of time one of my player has to choose 2 out of 3 cool rings or one out of two cool capes is too dam' high !

Not anymore! No Limit in PF2.

Well I mean Resonance, but you can have 10 rings, 4 boots, 5 Cloaks, and 2 gloves.

Dunno how you fit them all on, but to my knowledge you will be able to to do that.

Physical limits still exist. Only one pair of shoes at a time. Feel free to go to town on rings and amulets, though.


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Kill jester.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Almarane wrote:
Don't forget : having a ring of sustenance or another item like this takes one of your magic item slots. I feel this is already a "fee" to be able to not eat or resist your environment. The amount of time one of my player has to choose 2 out of 3 cool rings or one out of two cool capes is too dam' high !

Not anymore! No Limit in PF2.

Well I mean Resonance, but you can have 10 rings, 4 boots, 5 Cloaks, and 2 gloves.

Dunno how you fit them all on, but to my knowledge you will be able to to do that.

Physical limits still exist. Only one pair of shoes at a time. Feel free to go to town on rings and amulets, though.

Who said I needed them on my feet?

I did though admit I have no idea how they'd fit on but there's no Slot limit. Pretty sure people are going to abuse this. Even if it's just wearing as much Jewelry as possible.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

You don't need strictly defined slots to tag boots as going on your feet. Bling is definitely going to happen, but there is at least some sanity to worn items.


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Speaking as a GM who likes the idea of food and biological needs being addressed as well as the occasional attempted food poisoning....

CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!

Shadow Lodge

Jester David wrote:

I like making food an issue in roleplaying games. It was such a big part of Lord of the Rings, and spending two weeks riding on horseback between towns would stretch rations.

Yes and no. The books go over the food a lot. But the only time traveling food came up in the movies was the gifted bread, so that Sam could have a hope spot and Golem could cause trouble with the crumbs.

I prefer the movie version of that aspect.

Liberty's Edge

Judges of RPG Superstar gave great advice on creating magic items. I hope the devs will use this as a fine comb and pore over the CRB items and make them all RPGSS-worthy


KingOfAnything wrote:
You don't need strictly defined slots to tag boots as going on your feet. Bling is definitely going to happen, but there is at least some sanity to worn items.

I wouldn't use "Sanity" considering my experience. But we'll see.

If not 4 boots, I can see 10 rings, 2 earrings, noise ring, boots, cloak, hands, waist, chest, body, armbands, leg bands, etc etc etc.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
The problem is that poster enjoys survivalism type challenges and wants to be immersed in Roughing It, but their GM is handwaving something they enjoy.

Sounds a lot more like he's upset that other people aren't punished for not also wanting the same thing.

The player can carry all the supplies and stuff they want and be concerned about those issue without needing to force it on others.


I feel like it's a 2k gp handwave tax to become immune to plot elements like starvation, poisoning and genuine fatigue.

Yes you can magic your way out of it anyway but that's a resource expenditure at the very least.

It annoys my hunger to create conflict as a storyteller.

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