Dwarf Wizard FCB and accelerated crafting

Rules Questions

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Hi everyone, I am soon going to play a crafter character (here the advice thread, feel free to contribute :)), and I stumbled across the old Dwarf Wizard FCB can of worms.

So, the question is: any new official insights about the stacking of Dwarf Wizard FCB and accelerated crafting?

Dwarf Wizard FCB wrote:
Select one item creation feat known by the wizard. Whenever crafting an item using that feat, the amount of progress made in an 8-hour period increases by 200 gp (50 gp if crafting while adventuring). This does not reduce the cost of the item; it just increases the rate at which the item is crafted.

The various accelerated crafting rules double the amount of work you can do in 8h (Cooperative Crafting), squeeze the amount of work you can do in 8h to 4h (+5 Spellcraft DC), or just make you faster (Arcane Building).

In my opinion, Dwarf FCB adds at the end, and therefore is not multiplied. This means that a 5th level Dwarf Wizard will add 1000gp/day to his crafting potential, no matter how much he can craft in that day. This because the FCB clearly adds to the amount of work made in 8h, say X, and to know how much is X (so that you can add the FCB) you first need to perform all the multiplications given by the accelerated crafting methods.

If not, this would practically double the crafting potential at 5th level, triple at 10th, and quadruple at level 15th! And despite me being the crafter, I genuinely think that 2x/3x/4x crafting speed at the cost of 5/10/15hp is quite over the top.

Note that you can't take the FCB until you have the feat.

PRD wrote:
Wizard: Select one item creation feat known by the wizard. Whenever he crafts an item using that feat, the amount of progress he makes in an 8-hour period increases by 200 gp (50 gp if crafting while adventuring). This does not reduce the cost of the item; it just increases the rate at which the item is crafted.

The Dwarf FCB augment the work you can do in 8 hours.

The accelerate crafting rule of the CRB chance the amount you can enchant, saying that you can enchant 1.000 gp wort of magic item in 4 hours.

As I see it they are two different bonuses and don't interact directly with each other. The accelerate enchanting rules change 8 hours=1.000 gp to 4 hours=1.000 gp, the dwarf FCB add a production bonus of 200 gp after 8 uninterrupted hours of work. (literally: "in an 8-hour period"). So after 8 hours of accelerate work the dwarf would be able to enchant 1.000+1.000+FCB bonus as you say.

Same thing for the other way to accelerate magic item crafting.

Why is it over the top?

blahpers wrote:
Why is it over the top?

Because, if that was the case, it can double/triple/quadruple/up to quintuple your crafting potential at the cost of mere 5/10/15/20hp.

Seriously? What else needs to be added?

And if the mechanical imbalance was not enough, it would make any other choice of race and class outside Dwarf Wizard (including prestige classes) literally useless for the purposes of a crafting build.

To me it clearly adds up at the end, with a useful and yet not game-breaking +1000gp/day crafted every 5 levels.

I'm confused right now it is still doing what your saying. It already is taking one craft feat and x2/x3/x4/x5 if you focus on one feat.

Do any of the speed up methods actually let you make more than 1000gp worth each day or are they only ways to save time on that amount?

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Yeah, I read the first post. Why is it over the top?

Magic Item Creation wrote:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours.

Which can be rephrased as "You can craft 1000gp every 8h of work, or 125gp/h."

Nothing would stop you for crafting more than 1000gp in one day, as there is no gp cap (for example 2000gp in 16h of work), if not that

Magic Item Creation wrote:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.

However,

Magic Item Creation wrote:
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.

This enables us to craft 1000gp/4h. Since we still have 4h left worth of crafting, we can increase again the Spellcraft DC by 5 and craft another 1000gp worth of stuff, for a total of 2000gp/8h (not sure if, in case the increased Spellcraft DC was too high for us to take 10 on the check and instead we rolled, we need to roll twice. From now on let's assume 10 is enough).

Arcane Builder makes you 25% faster when creating a certain type of items, so you would create the aforementioned 2000gp in 6h instead of 8h (actually 1000gp/3h + 1000gp/3h). You still have 2h left, that net you 500gp net of work (with accelerated crafting). This translates into 2500gp/8h.

Cooperative Crafting simply doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day, so you are still working the same amount of time, but can craft 5000gp/8h (essentially because there is another person helping you).

As you might notice, so fare we have always talked about progress over a 8h interval. Now the Dwarf FCB says:

Dwarf FCB wrote:
Wizard: Select one item creation feat known by the wizard. Whenever he crafts an item using that feat, the amount of progress he makes in an 8-hour period increases by 200 gp (50 gp if crafting while adventuring). This does not reduce the cost of the item; it just increases the rate at which the item is crafted.

Assuming we selected the same type of items selected for Arcane Builder, such extra gp worth of progress is added (=increases by) to the amount of progress made over the 8h interval. It simply adds on top of whatever you managed to craft that day.

blahpers wrote:
Yeah, I read the first post. Why is it over the top?

Because the bonus you'd get is completely disproportionate compared not only to what you're paying, but also to similar conditional game mechanics: Arcane Builder (1.25x, one type of items), Forgemaster (2x, metal items @ 5th level), Arclord of Nex (2x, constructs @ 9th level). None of them go past 2x, and they all require heavier investment than a mere FCB.

Adding the Dwarf FCB to the final amount lets you add 4000gp/day on a type of items at 20th level, which is twice the amount crafted with both Cooperative and accelerated crafting. It's essentially an extra 2x boost across all 20 levels, which is comparable with the other crafting boosts already mentioned. I think this makes way more sense than a 5x.

It is a x5 boost ot one item type how is 6000/day only double 1000/day

Talonhawke wrote:
It is a x5 boost ot one item type how is 6000/day only double 1000/day

???

The FCB is a doubling of the daily at 5th level as is a tripling at 10 a quadrupling at 15 and a quintupling at 20 already.

You've posted the math many times. Yes, a dwarf wizard can craft way faster if she puts all (well, most) of her favored class bonuses into speeding up a particular kind of crafting.

What makes that over the top?

Talonhawke wrote:
The FCB is a doubling of the daily at 5th level as is a tripling at 10 a quadrupling at 15 and a quintupling at 20 already.

No, it isn't. It adds on top of what you craft over 8 hours, which can be 1000gp or more. If you only craft 1000gp/day, then sure, adding +1000gp/day at 5th level is the same as 2x, +2000gp/day at 10th is 3x, and so on, but not if you craft 5000gp/day via the various accelerated crafting methods. In this case it would still be "only" +1000gp/day @ 5th level, +2000gp/day @ 10th level and so on.

blahpers wrote:

You've posted the math many times. Yes, a dwarf wizard can craft way faster if she puts all (well, most) of her favored class bonuses into speeding up a particular kind of crafting.

What makes that over the top?

I did post the math, and yet you disagree with it, and instead of telling me where my math is wrong, you keep asking the same question. My answer is always the same: being up to 5 times faster than an already fully optimized non-Dwarf Wizard at crafting one category of objects at the cost of 20hp makes no sense, both in terms of rules and mechanics.

If you disagree, please show me where in the math I did wrong.

Your math isn't wrong, but you haven't explained why "I can craft faster" is "over the top"--you simply assert that it is and keep pointing to it as if it is self-explanatory.

So a race/class combo can make magic items much faster at a cost of speccing FURTHER into crafting then they already have, that's actually really usefull as hell to know

blahpers wrote:
Your math isn't wrong, but you haven't explained why "I can craft MUCH faster" is "over the top"--you simply assert that it is and keep pointing to it as if it is self-explanatory.

Because, as much as it could surprise you at this point, it is my opinion. I think I am entitled to have one. The reason behind it has been already stated; in brief: balance. You can agree or disagree with it, it's none of my concern and I honestly do not care.

What matters, since this is the Rules forum, is that the math and the rules seem to back my interpretation, and I wanted to be sure, which is why I asked.

The question now is: since the math is correct, and you agree with it, did any of your insistent and dull comments actually have a point? Because apart from attacking(?) a legit opinion asking 4 times "why is it over the top", and then acting surprised for getting the same answer to the same question, you literally added nothing to the conversation.

It's fine! I'm not expecting everyone to contribute, especially if it's maybe a stupid question. But if you do, please address the rules, not the opinions.

DeusTerran wrote:
So a race/class combo can make magic items much faster at a cost of speccing FURTHER into crafting then they already have, that's actually really usefull as hell to know

I never said that Dwarves can't be better than non-Dwarves at crafting. In fact, Dwarves are still better than the others by being able to craft 200gp/day/level more quickly, which is 1000gp/day extra every 5 levels. I simply asked if the math and the rules that I applied were correct, based on my opinion that, otherwise, the final result would be game-breaking. Again, it's not my opinion the subject of discussion, but the rules and the math, since this is the Rules forum.

So far, nobody has addressed the math, or the rules, to show me where I'm wrong.

While the FCB is unique and pretty good, it doesn't do miracles. At level 5, you can craft a +1 sword within a single day. At level 20, you still need 5 days for a +5 sword, despite x5.25 speed (took the FCB 16 times): 25k divided by 5.25k/day. So the FCB helps to turn your money into items, but it's only a linear increase compared to a quadratic increase of item prices. Assuming your campaign keeps the pace (ingame days per level), it still becomes increasingly difficult to keep up with crafting.

Now there are other ways to speed it up, but they don't require the FCB, any crafter could go for them. That's why I excluded them here for now.

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SheepishEidolon wrote:

While the FCB is unique and pretty good, it doesn't do miracles. At level 5, you can craft a +1 sword within a single day. At level 20, you still need 5 days for a +5 sword, despite x5.25 speed (took the FCB 16 times): 25k divided by 5.25k/day. So the FCB helps to turn your money into items, but it's only a linear increase compared to a quadratic increase of item prices. Assuming your campaign keeps the pace (ingame days per level), it still becomes increasingly difficult to keep up with crafting.

Now there are other ways to speed it up, but they don't require the FCB, any crafter could go for them. That's why I excluded them here for now.

The "problem" are actually the other ways to speed it up. I agree that a plain Dwarf Wizard with the FCB taken 16 times will be able to craft 1000+3200gp/day. I have no problem with that. The question is how this interacts with the other ways to speed it up.

If this applies after everything else, it's 5000+3200gp/day vs 5000gp/day of a non-Dwarf Wizard (with accelerated crafting, Valet Familiar and Arcane Builder). Still, no problem with that. +3200gp/day (+64% crafting speed) seems a reasonable trade-off for 16hp and is nothing to sneeze at.

If this applies before everything else, it's 21000gp/day vs 5000gp/day of a non-Dwarf Wizard (with accelerated crafting, Valet Familiar and Arcane Builder). And this is a problem in my opinion, both because it seems to me disproportionate (personal opinion outside the scope of the thread), and because I don't think it's actually backed by the rules and the math (actual point of the thread).

Assuming it's taking a crafting feat it knows that it will actually use, and it's tied to one feat... this won't always be something from level one.

So basically what, it's level 17 before it's producing a wondrous item while on the road as fast as it could have at level 3 while in the town?

OH NOES.

OK, so you don’t think the bonus should apply before multipliers.

What about other favored class bonuses?

A Dwarven kineticist FCB adds 1/3 point of damage to earth elemental blasts. So an 18th level kineticist does 6 extra points. Should that be “at the end” or should it get multiplied if the kineticist crits?

Belafon wrote:

OK, so you don’t think the bonus should apply before multipliers.

What about other favored class bonuses?

A Dwarven kineticist FCB adds 1/3 point of damage to earth elemental blasts. So an 18th level kineticist does 6 extra points. Should that be “at the end” or should it get multiplied if the kineticist crits?

I don't think the bonus should apply before multipliers because of how the rules are written and the math involved. Please show me where in the rules or in the maths I made a mistake, so that I can change my mind, and I am willing to!

Comparisons with damage and crits are irrelevant.

Gray Warden wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Your math isn't wrong, but you haven't explained why "I can craft MUCH faster" is "over the top"--you simply assert that it is and keep pointing to it as if it is self-explanatory.

Because, as much as it could surprise you at this point, it is my opinion. I think I am entitled to have one. The reason behind it has been already stated; in brief: balance. You can agree or disagree with it, it's none of my concern and I honestly do not care.

What matters, since this is the Rules forum, is that the math and the rules seem to back my interpretation, and I wanted to be sure, which is why I asked.

The question now is: since the math is correct, and you agree with it, did any of your insistent and dull comments actually have a point? Because apart from attacking(?) a legit opinion asking 4 times "why is it over the top", and then acting surprised for getting the same answer to the same question, you literally added nothing to the conversation.

It's fine! I'm not expecting everyone to contribute, especially if it's maybe a stupid question. But if you do, please address the rules, not the opinions.

DeusTerran wrote:
So a race/class combo can make magic items much faster at a cost of speccing FURTHER into crafting then they already have, that's actually really usefull as hell to know

I never said that Dwarves can't be better than non-Dwarves at crafting. In fact, Dwarves are still better than the others by being able to craft 200gp/day/level more quickly, which is 1000gp/day extra every 5 levels. I simply asked if the math and the rules that I applied were correct, based on my opinion that, otherwise, the final result would be game-breaking. Again, it's not my opinion the subject of discussion, but the rules and the math, since this is the Rules forum.

So far, nobody has addressed the math, or the rules, to show me where I'm wrong.

I never attacked you or your opinion, nor did I ever call you wrong. I simply don't see how being able to craft faster at the cost of your favored class bonuses is "over the top". I never questioned your understanding of the rules, only the subjective conclusions you drew from that understanding.

I apologize for causing you distress and will refrain from asking you to elaborate on future opinions.

Gray Warden wrote:
Belafon wrote:

OK, so you don’t think the bonus should apply before multipliers.

What about other favored class bonuses?

A Dwarven kineticist FCB adds 1/3 point of damage to earth elemental blasts. So an 18th level kineticist does 6 extra points. Should that be “at the end” or should it get multiplied if the kineticist crits?

I don't think the bonus should apply before multipliers because of how the rules are written and the math involved. Please show me where in the rules or in the maths I made a mistake, so that I can change my mind, and I am willing to!

Comparisons with damage and crits are irrelevant.

It is completely relevant.

You keep asking us to show you “where you made a mistake in the rules.” The mistake is that any time a bonus does NOT multiply (usually damage sources such as precision damage) it is specifically called out that they do NOT multiply.

I think that the FCB is multiplied, it shouldn't be applied at the end. (it's not and i'm wrapping up for the day, I'll pour 200gp on this project before I leave and miraculously increase it's progress).

For things like cooperative crafter, you're assisting others in crafting, so if they're the main crafter, they wouldn't be affected by the boost (only 2000gp per time period), but if they're assisting you, they're helping your efficiency (2,400gp done in a time period).

Similarly if the bonus was a +1 to crafting checks, and I had a feat that doubled the bonuses on crafting checks, I'd expect that +1 to be doubled as well.

Belafon wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:
Belafon wrote:

OK, so you don’t think the bonus should apply before multipliers.

What about other favored class bonuses?

A Dwarven kineticist FCB adds 1/3 point of damage to earth elemental blasts. So an 18th level kineticist does 6 extra points. Should that be “at the end” or should it get multiplied if the kineticist crits?

I don't think the bonus should apply before multipliers because of how the rules are written and the math involved. Please show me where in the rules or in the maths I made a mistake, so that I can change my mind, and I am willing to!

Comparisons with damage and crits are irrelevant.

It is completely relevant.

You keep asking us to show you “where you made a mistake in the rules.” The mistake is that any time a bonus does NOT multiply (usually damage sources such as precision damage) it is specifically called out that they do NOT multiply.

It has nothing to do with critical hits or bonuses in general, and it is not a multiplicative factor.

The FCB is an additive instance of crafting added to the 8h-period, it's clearly stated in the text: the amount of progress he makes in an 8-hour period increases by 200 gp, not the amount of progress he makes in an 8-hour period increases by 20%. If that was the case, then I would agree with you.

The various accelerated crafting methods do not multiply anything, but simply allow you to squeeze more crafting in that 8h-period for different reasons, but at the end you get to add an extra quid for being a cool Dwarf, the same way a non-Dwarf would get an extra hp for being loyal to his class.

willuwontu wrote:
it's not and i'm wrapping up for the day, I'll pour 200gp on this project before I leave and miraculously increase it's progress

I think it's exactly what it is (minus the belittling conclusion of course). At the end of the day, Dwarves manage to get more sh*t done. Kudos!

How valuable this is depends on the nature of the campaign. In a campaign with little or no downtime it will be very useful. In a campaign with plenty of downtime it is next to useless.

You are also not factoring in that the favored class bonus is not limited to HP. You also have the option to use it for extra skill points. Because they are INT based character wizards are usually not hurting for skill points, but that does not mean they cannot use more. A crafter is going to max out spellcraft and probably a few other skills. Dwarves do not get a bonus to INT so they are already at a disadvantage as a wizard because of that. That means they have less skill points than say an elf or a human. By putting my favored class bonus into skill point I may be able to max out perception. Getting a +20 to perception is a lot better than getting +20 HP.

Also compare the favored class bonus of a dwarf vs those of other races. Humans get to add one spell to the wizard spell book. In a campaign where finding spells is scarce this is very valuable. Halflings get +1/2 to your effective level for determining your familiar’s abilities.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
By putting my favored class bonus into skill point I may be able to max out perception. Getting a +20 to perception is a lot better than getting +20 HP.

Yeah right, because you needed just that +1 skill point/level from FCB to max out Perception. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) I guess you spent the remaining 11 skill points per level at lvl 20 to max out Climb, Swim, Knowledge[Geography] and 8 types of Profession.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Also compare the favored class bonus of a dwarf vs those of other races. Humans get to add one spell to the wizard spell book. In a campaign where finding spells is scarce this is very valuable. Halflings get +1/2 to your effective level for determining your familiar’s abilities.

I did.

20th level Human Wizards focused on knowing spells get +1 spell to the spellbook, which at 20th level are 17 more spells. +17 spells over 45 learned just from leveling (not including cantrips). It's a +38% increase in spell-knowledge ability (way less if we include scrolls and spellbooks, which is usually the norm).

20th level Halfling Wizards focused on their familiar add +10 to the effective level of their familiar, which is a +50% increase in their familiar ability.

But let's include also hp and skill ranks.

A 20th level non-Human Wizard focused on skills gets +20 skill points from FCB. At that level, such a Wizard would have around Int 30 (base 18 + level increments + +6 headband), which is 12 skill points/lvl x 20lvl = 240 skill points in total. The extra +20 skill points are a mere +8% increase in skill ability, less if Human and/or with a racial bonus to Int and/or Int tomes were used. So yeah, I really doubt any Wizard would spend their FCB to get skill points.

A 20th level non-Human Wizard focused on not-getting-killed gets +20 hp from FCB. At that level, such a Wizard would have around Con 20 (base 14 + +6 belt), which is 182 hp in total. The extra +20 hp are a +11% increase in not-getting-killed ability, lower with a racial bonus to Con or Toughness.

So far, no FCB has had any effect that can be summarized as a +100% (not to mention +200% or +300%) of the base effect.

Meanwhile 20th level Dwarf Wizards focused on crafting wondrous items get, in the most conservative view, +3400gp/day crafted on top of the base 5000gp/day, which is a +68% increase in their wondrous item crafting ability, more if for any reason the Dwarf could not apply any of the accelerated crafting methods.

So yeah, I think Dwarves are still pretty good at crafting!

Gray Warden wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
By putting my favored class bonus into skill point I may be able to max out perception. Getting a +20 to perception is a lot better than getting +20 HP.
Yeah right, because you needed just that +1 skill point/level from FCB to max out Perception. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) I guess you spent the remaining 11 skill points per level at lvl 20 to max out Climb, Swim, Knowledge[Geography] and 8 types of Profession.

Don't be an ass dude but be sides that 11 skill points hmmm lets see there are 10 knowledge alone so s+~\$ there went most of those. Not on climb or 8 professions but on just the knowledge skills add spell craft and I just wrapped up my eleven skill points quite nicely for a wizard.

Talonhawke wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
By putting my favored class bonus into skill point I may be able to max out perception. Getting a +20 to perception is a lot better than getting +20 HP.
Yeah right, because you needed just that +1 skill point/level from FCB to max out Perception. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) I guess you spent the remaining 11 skill points per level at lvl 20 to max out Climb, Swim, Knowledge[Geography] and 8 types of Profession.
Don't be an ass dude but be sides that 11 skill points hmmm lets see there are 10 knowledge alone so s#+& there went most of those. Not on climb or 8 professions but on just the knowledge skills add spell craft and I just wrapped up my eleven skill points quite nicely for a wizard.

If you want to invest in all Knowledge skills before Perception is up to you. But don't tell me that those 20 extra skill points over 240 are just the ones you need to get +20 Perception, as I could just as well say that with those 20 skill points I could have maxed out Swim, which is arguably the most useless skill for a Wizard, not because Wizards do not need to be able to swim, but because they have other priorities (and Monkey Fish is a 1st level spell). And from that I could conclude that Getting a +20 to Swim is a lot worse than getting any other FCB, hence extra skill points as FCB are useless. Of course nobody uses this argument because it makes no sense, but at the same time it doesn't either make sense to twist the argument the other way around and apply it to arguably the most important skill in the game.

And we both know that using this kind of logical shenanigans to win an argument is just a waste of everyone's time, and an insult to everyone's intelligence, as I am sure you are smart more than enough to see the point.

A crafter that puts skill ranks into craft can fashion the items himself. That means I can make my base item at 1/3 the cost. This unlike the favored class bonus of the dwarf does allow you to make more items for the same cost. In a campaign with plenty of downtime this is going to be a lot more beneficial than making the item faster. If you want to make lots of different items you may need quite a few craft skills. The craft rules also allow you to speed up the process by adding +10 to the DC of the skill check.

So no I will not be taking 8 professional skills, but I may be taking 5 or more craft skills. I will also be taking multiple knowledge skills. You will also want Apprise, and probably at least a few other skills. Since I don’t want to get cheated I will also probably be putting some points into sense motive. As far as professional skills I should have at least some points into professional skill merchant. Linguistics is also something I will probably want to put some points into. Dwarfs have a very restricted list of starting languages and no planar languages except Terran. Throw in maxing out spellcraft and those 11 points per level don’t seem like that much anymore.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

A crafter that puts skill ranks into craft can fashion the items himself. That means I can make my base item at 1/3 the cost. This unlike the favored class bonus of the dwarf does allow you to make more items for the same cost. In a campaign with plenty of downtime this is going to be a lot more beneficial than making the item faster. If you want to make lots of different items you may need quite a few craft skills. The craft rules also allow you to speed up the process by adding +10 to the DC of the skill check.

So no I will not be taking 8 professional skills, but I may be taking 5 or more craft skills. I will also be taking multiple knowledge skills. You will also want Apprise, and probably at least a few other skills. Since I don’t want to get cheated I will also probably be putting some points into sense motive. As far as professional skills I should have at least some points into professional skill merchant. Linguistics is also something I will probably want to put some points into. Dwarfs have a very restricted list of starting languages and no planar languages except Terran. Throw in maxing out spellcraft and those 11 points per level don’t seem like that much anymore.

You don't need 5 Craft skills to craft magic items, as Spellcraft is already more than enough. Throw in a couple of "signature" Craft skills to better characterize your character, and use the rest untrained if you really need to craft that mundane pair of masterwork shoes. But 5? Why not 6? Then I could say that 1 extra skill point is not enough and it should be at least 2 so that I can max out Appraise, hence +1 skill point/lvl is useless. Come on man, I understand what you mean and I know you from the good advice you usually leave on the forum, so I'm sure you know that this is completely irrelevant in the context of a generic (Rules) discussion like this one.

FCB to get extra skills nets to a +8% skill points over 20 levels. This is a fact. Now, how much that increase is important depends on the specific case: it's up to you to decide whether those +8% skill points are more important to your Dwarf crafter Wizard than an extra 68% to your crafting capacity on your signature items.

After all, it's a good thing that you still consider skill points (or hp) as a viable alternative for a Dwarf to their racial FCB: it means that none of the options spectacularly trumps the others in terms of power, which is a sign of a good balanced system. Would you still say this would be true if the crafting increase was +400% as some seem to imply?