Tiefling ( Use large weapons ) / Titan fighter vs Shield Bash


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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If i can use a bigger weapon, can I handle a bigger shield and Shield Bash with it?

Example:
Fighter 10 ( archetype Titan Fighter )
Race Tiefling ( Oni Spawn )

Traits:
Adopted ( Human ) - Shield Bearer ( Ulfen )
Giant-Blooded
Shield-Trained

Drawback: Power Hungry

Shield: Heavy steel shield with spikes + 1 bashing
Weapon enchant on shield: + 1 Impact

This would enable me to use a huge weapon, in that case a huge shield.
Medium 2d6
Impact 3d6
Large Shield 4d6
Huge Shield 6d6
Enlarge potion 8d6

Shield-Trained let me use Heavy Shield as a light weapon, can i oversize it to two-handed( 2 categorys )?

Dark Archive

Don't use shield spikes, it doesn't stack with bashing.bashing and impact won't stack either

Tieflings can't use enlarge person. They're outsiders not humanoid unless you trade some racial abilities


Andrews Donovan wrote:

Shield-Trained let me use Heavy Shield as a light weapon, can i oversize it to two-handed( 2 categorys )?

Yup. And with the 'Giant Weapon Wielder' ability you could (probably) walk around with a Shield 3 sizes larger than yourself (at a -6 penalty).

In addition to all the stacking issues Name Violation already mentioned, the Titan Fighter archetype won't reduce your attack penalty.

Incredible Heft wrote:
At 3rd level, a titan fighter becomes more skilled at wielding weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself. /.../

Your Shield isn't one size category larger than yourself, it's several categories larger.

*******************

Also, I don't believe you could use your Shield as armor if it's not properly sized for your character. The end result is that you're suffering from several size category penalties while you can't even benefit from the shield's AC bonus.


I say go for it. It's an awesome visual, much better than some cliche mother of bastard swords.


Is there a rule that keeps him from benefiting from the shield's AC bonus just because it's a couple size categories too big?

And I'm pretty sure people put spikes on their shields to change the damage type so they can put Keen on it, everyone knows that spikes/Impact/Bashing don't stack.

It is a fun visual, I would allow it, personally. If you're willing to take the penalties to attack, go for it.


Wonderstell wrote:
Andrews Donovan wrote:

Shield-Trained let me use Heavy Shield as a light weapon, can i oversize it to two-handed( 2 categorys )?

Yup. And with the 'Giant Weapon Wielder' ability you could (probably) walk around with a Shield 3 sizes larger than yourself (at a -6 penalty).

In addition to all the stacking issues Name Violation already mentioned, the Titan Fighter archetype won't reduce your attack penalty.

Incredible Heft wrote:
At 3rd level, a titan fighter becomes more skilled at wielding weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself. /.../

Your Shield isn't one size category larger than yourself, it's several categories larger.

*******************

Also, I don't believe you could use your Shield as armor if it's not properly sized for your character. The end result is that you're suffering from several size category penalties while you can't even benefit from the shield's AC bonus.

teifling lets them use large weapons(with the alternate trait), the archetype lets them use one size category larger so their normal weapon they can wield is huge size for 2h weapons however the titan mauler ability only works for two handed weapons so they cant use it for non two handed weapons which means no use on the shield as its counted as light so they are stuck at large sized shield from teifling


Heavy shields are 1H weapons.

Trait lets you treat as Light weapon.

A size large 1H weapon becomes 2H, a Light weapon becomes 1H, right?

Starting with a size large heavy shield would require 2H to wield, except you're starting with a size large light shield due to the trait, making it a 1H weapon, right? This is without any penalty to attack because of the Tiefling's big arms.

Add in a -2 penalty to go up another size... now a size huge light weapon is immediately a 2H weapon for a medium creature, despite how big your arms are, and requires the archetype ability to use.

This size huge light shield is still within one size category of what his racial abilities allow, so everything works out fine with an overall -4 to hit.

I'm pretty sure that a huge heavy shield does 2D6 base damage, but I could be wrong.


Lady-J wrote:
teifling lets them use large weapons(with the alternate trait), the archetype lets them use one size category larger so their normal weapon they can wield is huge size for 2h weapons however the titan mauler ability only works for two handed weapons so they cant use it for non two handed weapons which means no use on the shield as its counted as light so they are stuck at large sized shield from teifling

Shield-Trained (the Religion trait) allows you to treat Heavy Shields as light weapons.

As you treat the Heavy Shield as a light weapon, you can wield a Heavy Shield two size categories larger than you are as a two-handed weapon.

Weapons: Weapon Size wrote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

Since a Huge, Light Melee weapon counts as a Two-Handed weapon for a medium creature, you should be able to use a Gargantuan light weapon with the Giant Weapon Wielder ability.


VoodistMonk wrote:
Is there a rule that keeps him from benefiting from the shield's AC bonus just because it's a couple size categories too big?

Well, there's actually no rule that says that you can, and that's the problem.

There are rules for wielding 'Inappropriately Sized Weapons', but there is no such mention in the Armor rules.


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Oh my. It's like ripping the palace door off and using it as a shield.

That's awesome.

But on a technical level, would it fit down a hallway or dungeon tunnel?

I have absolutely no problem with any of the ruling that it is completely allowable for said Titan Fighter Tiefling to wield a gargantuan sized heavy shield.

But can it actually fit in the passageways often encountered in this game?


VoodistMonk wrote:

That's awesome.

But on a technical level, would it fit down a hallway or dungeon tunnel?

That is a question. If we assume that a heavy shield is a meter across, that it doubles at large, doubles again at huge, and again at gargantuan, than it's eight meters across... that's not fitting anywhere.

How can we fix this?


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Use a gargantuan dagger instead. Trade the shield trait for the +1 DMG with daggers trait (Swamp Rat). Pick up QuickDraw, TwoHanded Thrower, and Point Blank Shot so you can throw it with a blinkback belt.


VoodistMonk wrote:
Use a gargantuan dagger instead. Trade the shield trait for the +1 DMG with daggers trait (Swamp Rat). Pick up QuickDraw, TwoHanded Thrower, and Point Blank Shot so you can throw it with a blinkback belt.

That's hilarious. But it doesn't solve the shield problem.

EDIT

I think I sounded sarcastic there? It really is hilarious, just not exclamation mark hilarious. Just mildly hilarious.


Wonderstell wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
teifling lets them use large weapons(with the alternate trait), the archetype lets them use one size category larger so their normal weapon they can wield is huge size for 2h weapons however the titan mauler ability only works for two handed weapons so they cant use it for non two handed weapons which means no use on the shield as its counted as light so they are stuck at large sized shield from teifling

Shield-Trained (the Religion trait) allows you to treat Heavy Shields as light weapons.

As you treat the Heavy Shield as a light weapon, you can wield a Heavy Shield two size categories larger than you are as a two-handed weapon.

Weapons: Weapon Size wrote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

Since a Huge, Light Melee weapon counts as a Two-Handed weapon for a medium creature, you should be able to use a Gargantuan light weapon with the Giant Weapon Wielder ability.

while it may have the handedness of a 2h weapon it is still classified as a light weapon and thus un able to benefit from the ability it needs to be an actual two handed weapon ei a greatsword, a great axe, a pole arm, a earth breaker ect.


Lady-J wrote:
while it may have the handedness of a 2h weapon it is still classified as a light weapon and thus un able to benefit from the ability it needs to be an actual two handed weapon ei a greatsword, a great axe, a pole arm, a earth breaker ect.

A huge dagger is designated as a two-handed weapon for a medium wielder.

Weapons: Weapon Size wrote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
Weapons: Weapon Size wrote:

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

The only mechanical difference between a Large shortsword and a Medium longsword is the -2 penalty to hit. They're both considered one-handed weapons for all purposes, such as TWF and getting 1.5x Str dmg.

If this designation didn't change, then you would be able to wield a Large dagger with two hands and gain 1.5x Dex to damage as an Unrogue.

Edit: But yes, I can see how some GMs would rule that the Titan Fighter's ability only works on 'genuine' Two-Handed weapons, which is why I wrote 'Probably' in my first post.


Wonderstell wrote:


If this designation didn't change, then you would be able to wield a Large dagger with two hands and gain 1.5x Dex to damage as an Unrogue.

That's a ruling I can live with! Melee, ranged, and does 1.5 times DEX! Still probably worse than the curveblade, but no feat for it.


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Wonderstell wrote:
The only mechanical difference between a Large shortsword and a Medium longsword is the -2 penalty to hit. They're both considered one-handed weapons for all purposes, such as TWF and getting 1.5x Str dmg.

Alright, I realized this isn't completely true. The medium character makes no distinction between the two weapons, but the game system does.

"The only mechanical difference between a Large shortsword and a Medium longsword is the -2 penalty to hit, in regard to the medium creature."

Lady-J is correct in saying that a Light weapon is still a Light weapon even though it's huge, tiny or medium. You wouldn't be able to enchant a large/huge dagger with the Impact property, since it prohibits Light Weapons.

So there lies the problem in that the Huge Heavy Shield is designated as a Two-Handed weapon for a medium creature with the Shield-Trained trait, while still being a One-Handed weapon for a properly sized creature.

I do however think that the Titan Fighter archetype would allow you to wield a Gargantuan Heavy Shield, since it's an ability the character has, and is therefore affected by what the weapon is designated as in regard to the character. In the same spirit, Power Attack would add +50% damage if you wield a Large dagger with two hands, since Power Attack is an ability possessed by the character.

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