| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If we're looking to use if for MORE than just spells (which I think is appropriate), I suggest it be either Energy, or Power (the electrician in my leans toward energy, as that is an actual amount of work that could be stored).
So an ability can be written to use 1 ENERGY POINT, or one point from your ENERGY POOL, or quite frankly, have the ability include a line that simply says:
Cost: 1 EP
Energy fits the bill well, except that energy is already used as a damage type for acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. It is also used for positive and negative energy.
If we rename the damage type to elemental, then the conflict with using energy for another major game term can be avoided. Since electrical spells don't act much like eletricity, labeling it as elemental electricity will also help justify its unnatural behavior.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And I see absolutely no problem letting different classes use the same pool. If you're a wizard monk, why not allow your arcane power recharge your ki? A prayer to the cleric/rogue's god could use some of your divine influence that you normally use for your domain powers to fuel is rogue talents. Or the ever elusive barbarian/monk could channel his ki into restoring his rage powers?
If you can flavor the ability to transfer "energy" from one class pool to another, then why go through the trouble to do so, and simply merge them all to the same pool - making the game itself that much easier to play.
The problem with combining pools from different classes is balance.
If I have a pool of 7 points for my domain power, and I can activate said power 7 times per day (this is the explanation as I understand it, that the points equals the uses per day), and it only increases by level or every 4th level or as my ability modifier increases permanently, then adding another level of a different class would add another 7 points for its 7 uses per day. And at 2nd level, now I can use either ability 14 times per day, where I might not reach 14 times per day until 10th or 15th level.
This could be a way to dip a complimentary class level to essentially double the uses of a per day power by 2nd level.
So any kind of combining of class pools should only be done with this balance issue in mind.
You wouldn't double the size of a universal pool when you multiclass, any more than you double the number of feats you have when you multi to a class with redundant weapon proficiencies. It'd be more that any class with such abilities gives you the pool, and it's either based on your character level or gets +2 uses each time you pick up a new ability that uses the pool.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
When I make character sheets in spreadsheet form for PF2, I'm just going to label the field "Class Metacurrency". Since it's not like the characters in the game are going to refer specifically to "spell points" any more than they will refer to "hit points" or "reflex saves" it doesn't matter how "gamey" it sounds, merely that it's clear to he players what it is.
And I see absolutely no problem letting different classes use the same pool. If you're a wizard monk, why not allow your arcane power recharge your ki? A prayer to the cleric/rogue's god could use some of your divine influence that you normally use for your domain powers to fuel is rogue talents. Or the ever elusive barbarian/monk could channel his ki into restoring his rage powers?
If you can flavor the ability to transfer "energy" from one class pool to another, then why go through the trouble to do so, and simply merge them all to the same pool - making the game itself that much easier to play.
The problem with combining pools from different classes is balance.
If I have a pool of 7 points for my domain power, and I can activate said power 7 times per day (this is the explanation as I understand it, that the points equals the uses per day), and it only increases by level or every 4th level or as my ability modifier increases permanently, then adding another level of a different class would add another 7 points for its 7 uses per day. And at 2nd level, now I can use either ability 14 times per day, where I might not reach 14 times per day until 10th or 15th level.
This could be a way to dip a complimentary class level to essentially double the uses of a per day power by 2nd level.
So any kind of combining of class pools should only be done with this balance issue in mind.
If every character started with a spellpoint pool whose size equaled character level plus Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) regardless of the character's class, then it would, as Tallow requested, start with the balance issue in mind.
For example, at 4th level the PF1 core monk gains a ki pool whose size equals monk’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. If the PF2 monk switched to the spellpoint pool, then make all abilities that cost 1 ki cost 2 spellpoints instead and allow replacing the Int bonus on the size of the spellpoint pool with the monk's Wisdom bonus.
If the monk multiclassed to cleric of Irori and gained Touch of Law (3+Wis/day) and Strength Surge (3+Wis/day) as domain abilities, they could also tap the same spellpoint pool, one spellpoint per use. If cleric could also replace the Int bonus to size with a Wis bonus, then it changes nothing.
In my first paragraph I said, "regardless of class," but having ancestry affect the pool would be interesting, such as all elves get +2 to the size of their spellpoint pool and all gnomes get +2 to the size of their resonance pool.
Rainbow reserve does sparkle with me, I wonder if it is friendship powered;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rainbow reserve does sparkle with me, I wonder if it is friendship powered;)
Hug powered! Bonus points if it's cute and fluffy! ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really hope that was a mistake.
Separate pools (aka charges) for variable strength daily powers to pull from while named identically feels like the worst of both worlds to me.
n/day was easy to understand, but lead to an increase in things you need to track. Arguably easier to balance as well.
A metacurrency was a little more abstract, but simplified tracking.
I think that I will call them Butts.
"The sorcerer spends two Butts to use her draconic blood to breath lightning."
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, if its points per ability, that's just going to be really unwieldy I think. Its a distinction without a distinction I think, and could lead to more confusion that necessary.
Player: What do you mean I can't use my spell points for this ability?
GM: Well, you already used the spell points specifically for that ability.
Player: But I still have spell points.
GM: Sure, but those spell points are for this other ability.
Player: ??!
Flower Points. I like that term.
Only if this is the battle theme every time you fight monsters.
|
Well, it was said that they were now points so that there could be options added or for more powerful uses...Sure, but it certainly begs the question. Is it a singular pool of points, or several pools of points?
For all intents and purposes, are they just renaming "per day" to "x points"?
No, I mean, one spell could do 1d6 bludgeoning damages for 1 point, or 1d6 fire damages on 2 points. That's what the "point" system let them do. It easier to say it uses 2 points than to say it use two uses. At least, that's how I understand it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If they want to redefine domain powers, wizard school abilities, and sorcerer bloodlines as spells, that's fine. But the game still has spell SLOTS, so this pool should not be called spell POINTS, since they're clearly being kept in a different mechanical space.
Spell Anything also limits the flavor of the mechanic and limits its extension to other things. For example, with a name like Inner Power or Stamina it could also do the following:
- Spend a point to activate your Barbarian Rage or Bardic Performance for (class level + ability modifier) rounds.
- Replace panache, Grit, etc.
- Activate feats usable only a certain number of times per day, if things like Stunning Fist still have that restriction.
- And yes, it also still keeps the flavor necessary to represent using magical abilities like domain powers.
Oh, and another thing about having a universal pool: it interacts better with feats. You don't need to waste 1-2 pages of text on basically identical feats for +2 domain activations per day, +2 lay on hands per day, +X rounds of rage per day, etc. You just have one feat that gives you +X widget points per day.
And another another thing: it just interacts better with multiclassing generally. It reins in getting craploads of extra powers-per-day from level dipping, solving one of the overpower issues of multiclassing, while at the same time allowing abilities to scale better with your character level, solving one of the underpower issues of multiclassing.
|
Flower Points. I like that term.Only if this is the battle theme every time you fight monsters.
Deal.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It seems PF2 is very much trying to cut down on the number of terms you need to know. Getting rid of lots of class features etc calling them all feats. Bye to different action types, they're just actions. And anything that is a magical power is a spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If they want to redefine domain powers, wizard school abilities, and sorcerer bloodlines as spells, that's fine. But the game still has spell SLOTS, so this pool should not be called spell POINTS, since they're clearly being kept in a different mechanical space.
Spell Anything also limits the flavor of the mechanic and limits its extension to other things. For example, with a name like Inner Power or Stamina it could also do the following:
- Spend a point to activate your Barbarian Rage or Bardic Performance for (class level + ability modifier) rounds.
- Replace panache, Grit, etc.
- Activate feats usable only a certain number of times per day, if things like Stunning Fist still have that restriction.
- And yes, it also still keeps the flavor necessary to represent using magical abilities like domain powers.
Oh, and another thing about having a universal pool: it interacts better with feats. You don't need to waste 1-2 pages of text on basically identical feats for +2 domain activations per day, +2 lay on hands per day, +X rounds of rage per day, etc. You just have one feat that gives you +X widget points per day.
And another another thing: it just interacts better with multiclassing generally. It reins in getting craploads of extra powers-per-day from level dipping, solving one of the overpower issues of multiclassing, while at the same time allowing abilities to scale better with your character level, solving one of the underpower issues of multiclassing.
Yeah, it's all very encouraging. It seems like they've really learned from the mistakes of 3.x/PF1 and are striving to simplify in all the right ways (without "dumbing down"). Very promising!
|
|
No, I mean, one spell could do 1d6 bludgeoning damages for 1 point, or 1d6 fire damages on 2 points. That's what the "point" system let them do. It easier to say it uses 2 points than to say it use two uses. At least, that's how I understand it.Well, it was said that they were now points so that there could be options added or for more powerful uses...Sure, but it certainly begs the question. Is it a singular pool of points, or several pools of points?
For all intents and purposes, are they just renaming "per day" to "x points"?
I get that, but is each ability going to have its own pool? If so, and you name them all Spell Points (or whatever), its going to be confusing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I did have a problem with the name "Spell Points", but it had nothing to do about it sounding "gamey", my concern is that most of the time it won't be used to track "Spells", its a bad name that creates unnecessary confusion.
Something more along the line of "Power Points" (yeah, I know it sounds specially bad because Power Point Presentations are a thing we use) or something like "Ability Points" or even just "Mana" or a new word like they did for Resonance... After all, this new resource is used to track your uses of things like Domain Powers or Bloodline Abilities; NOT Bloodline Spells or Domain Spells.
From the wording, and Paizo wanting to reduce/combine stuff (like with Class Feats and such), and I get the feeling that this "Spell Points" resource will be used to track stuff like the current Monk's Ki Points or Barbarian Rage Powers and such; and even if this wasn't the case and its only originally used for Spell-Related stuff (which I highly doubt), give it a year and a couple of books and that won't be the case anymore... The word "Spell" needs to go from it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But it will track "spells", who adhere to the rules affecting spells. As far as I understand it?
But only sometimes, not always... I think?
If they were ONLY used to Cast Spells or Improve Spells, I wouldn't have a problem with it being called "Spell Points", but I get the feeling this pool may include things like the "Monk's Ki Pool Abilities" or "Barbarian Rage Powers", so the name "SPELL Point" will be highly inadequate if that's the case.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm guessing that Spell Points will only be used for spells.
I'm also guessing that a lot of special abilities that weren't spells before might be changed to spells now, so that we don't have a whole bunch of different types of powers to keep track of their interactions.
Spell Points are used for (certain types of) spells.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fantastically Amazing Reservoir Technique or FART for short.
Impetus.
Or... just let the designers pick whatever they feel like because this really doesn't matter.
The existing term "Spell Slots" is gamier than roadkill venison. If Hit Points are fine, Spell Points are fine.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let me enlighten you with the definitive solution name: "Feat points".
I sense a disturbance in the force... Maybe spell points are REALLY your midichlorian count!
On a serious note, you could just call em source [points].
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spell Points are used for (certain types of) spells.I'm guessing that Spell Points will only be used for spells.
I'm also guessing that a lot of special abilities that weren't spells before might be changed to spells now, so that we don't have a whole bunch of different types of powers to keep track of their interactions.
The real question is are these "certain types of spells" the pf2e analog for ki powers, rage rounds, bardic performance, etc?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really think this is something that we'd give more meaningful feedback on with better suggestions once we see how all classes are structured and the exact mechanics of these spell points.
With the right point resolution (number of points/level and number of points/ability), it could make for a very flexible system. Even with multiclassing wanting these points tied from different abilities, it could have those points granted at each level, and the gain at that given level be based on the ability score tied to the class taken at that level. It would of course make for a lot more 'points' in the pool, but that way some of the spells might cost 3-5 EP, while a round of bardic performance might only cost 1 EP. The higher numbers allow that level of control over how they are used.
Or, if going with the lower number option, just give lvl + (highest classes ability) mod.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I’d vote for borrowing the Resolve term from Starfinder.
I suspect some people would get "resolve" and "resonance" confused.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spell Points are used for (certain types of) spells.I'm guessing that Spell Points will only be used for spells.
I'm also guessing that a lot of special abilities that weren't spells before might be changed to spells now, so that we don't have a whole bunch of different types of powers to keep track of their interactions.
That one sentence set my game-design mental gears spinning. How can spell-like abilities be treated as spells? What about supernatural abilities?
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities function just like spells, but are granted through a special racial ability or by a specific class ability (as opposed to spells, which are gained by spellcasting classes as a character gains levels).
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical attacks, defenses, and qualities. These abilities can be always active or they can require a specific action to utilize. The supernatural ability's description includes information on how it is used and its effects.
Any activated magic ability could be called a spell. The activation would be called casting. With spell points, spells would come in four types.
- Prepared spells - These spells are prepared from a spellbook. Preparing a spell consumes a spell slot. They can be cast once without any further cost beyond the required verbal, somatic, and material actions.
- Spontaneous spells - These spells are cast without preparation from a list of spells known. They can be cast repeatedly. Each casting costs a spell slot of the appropriate class and level and the required verbal, somatic, and material actions.
- Cantrips - These spells are cast from a list of cantrips known, though for a spellbook caster the list is prepared daily from a spellbook. They can be cast repeatedly. Each casting costs the required verbal, somatic, and material actions.
- Ability spells - These spells are individually granted by an ability. They can be cast repeatedly. Each casting costs an appropriate number of spell points and the required verbal, somatic, and material actions.
Other magic abilities are not cast as spells because they are always active. Though currently spell-like abilites don't have verbal, somatic, nor material components, PF2 would have the option of adding them. We also have the option of prepared ability spells, which would be prepared from a spellbook but cost spell points instead of a spell slot, but no current spell-like ability would be converted into that.
With a structure like that, with some spells costing spell slots and others costing spell points, I can see how the symmetry of the two terms would appeal to designers.
However, as a GM, I want more verbal distinction. Spell slot has an obvious one-to-one correspondence: one slot for one spell. I don't know whether spell points will have that one-to-one correspondence. I hope not, because I want some powerful abilities to cost two or more spell points. Therefore, I want to break the symmetry.
However, many colorful names suggested don't fit the cost methodology. Saying "I spend two of my Power Reserve," sounds like the speaker has messed up the parts of speech. "I spend two points of my Power Reserve" is smoother. My own suggestions of Incantation or Genesis fail, because "points of incantation" and "points of genesis" don't make sense. "Points of magic" makes more sense. "Points of flower power" is silly, but "flower points" works.
Mana is one of the few repository names that does not need to be measured in points. "I spend two mana" is short and sensible, though perhaps that is because I played Magic The Gathering. Spark, dash, grain, speck, atom, particle, bit, beat, surge, jolt, and shake have the same advantage, but they sound less magical.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Put me down for Mana. I would also except flower (flour) points or rainbow sprinkle points.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And me to the list of people who do not like spell points. Because they can only be used to cast certain predetermined spells and not just any spell even though points have a connotation of something that can be allocated freely
And we might end up with tracking several pools of them. One for each specific power
We need something that can be spent but conveys less of a notion of being allocated than points
I propose Power Uses or Spell Uses if "spell" must absolutely be there
Note : I dislike the latter because spells are a very specific class feature in 3.5/PF and I think using the word for other class features is confusing. In a way it is the exact opposite of clearly dissociating alchemy from magic which is something PF2 does