Nightgaunt tickle(ex) and grapple -> move -> free attempt to break grapple


Rules Questions


Hello,

I'm looking at the Nightgaunt abilities and the grappling rules. If the Nightgaunt succeeds to tickle a grappled target, giving him the condition: nauseated, and then fly to a hazardous location, does the grappled target still gets a free attempt to break the grapple?

Nauseated: Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.

Grapple:...Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Also wondering if "Clutches(ex)" bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks also applies to CMD. There's a (specific grapple cmb) on the monster sheet but not for the CMD.

Liberty's Edge

As written the tickled creature get the free attempt to escape,but is unable to perform it.
What I mean is that normally the tickled creature can't make the attempt to break the grapple, but if for some reason it has the ability to suppress the nauseated condition it get the opportunity to try to break the grapple as a free action.

Clutches(ex)& CMD: Clutches help with the grapple combat maneuver, but you aren't making a grapple combat maneuver when the other guy is trying to break free.
You aren't making a combat maneuver when the other guy is trying to escape a grapple.


Thank you Diego, I wanted to be sure before possibly denying someone a free action.

I'm still a bit unsure about combat maneuver checks.
I think you might be right. When the attempt to escape is initiated by the grappled creature, the grappler is not defending against a grapple combat maneuver.

But what if the Nightgaunt gets grappled?
Is the Combat Maneuver defense check a Combat Maneuver check or not?

*edit: Forget that! I just understood!
You don't roll a dice for CMD, meaning it's not a check.

Thank you!

The Concordance

Free attempt =\= free action

If You Are Grappled wrote:
If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD).

You are explicitly not allowed to attack when nauseated, so free CMB attempt is out. Since the free Escape Artist attempt is a skill check instead of an attack, the target can use it to try to break the grapple if grapple:moved over a hazard.

Liberty's Edge

ShieldLawrence wrote:

Free attempt =\= free action

If You Are Grappled wrote:
If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD).
You are explicitly not allowed to attack when nauseated, so free CMB attempt is out. Since the free Escape Artist attempt is a skill check instead of an attack, the target can use it to try to break the grapple if grapple:moved over a hazard.

"Nauseated: Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn."

That seem to exclude the use of the Escape artist skill.
I would say that an attempt to use Escape artist require some level of attention. YMMV.

Shadow Lodge

The issue of free and swift actions while Nauseated came up previously and was FAQ'd:

Quote:


Nauseated and Actions: Does the nauseated condition really mean what it says when it says “The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn” or does it just mean I can’t take a standard action?

The nauseated condition really means what it says. You are limited to one move action per round, and not any other actions. Compare to the staggered condition, which says “A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions.”

So, Nauseated condition would prevent the character from using the free attempt to escape the grapple when placed in a hazardous square.


Sammy T wrote:

The issue of free and swift actions while Nauseated came up previously and was FAQ'd:

Quote:


Nauseated and Actions: Does the nauseated condition really mean what it says when it says “The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn” or does it just mean I can’t take a standard action?

The nauseated condition really means what it says. You are limited to one move action per round, and not any other actions. Compare to the staggered condition, which says “A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions.”

So, Nauseated condition would prevent the character from using the free attempt to escape the grapple when placed in a hazardous square.

It says free attempt, not attempt as a free action. So the nauseated condition would not apply since the free attempt is not an action. Just like nauseated foes not prevent a 5' step because a 5' step is not an action.

The Concordance

Sammy T wrote:

The issue of free and swift actions while Nauseated came up previously and was FAQ'd:

Quote:


Nauseated and Actions: Does the nauseated condition really mean what it says when it says “The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn” or does it just mean I can’t take a standard action?

The nauseated condition really means what it says. You are limited to one move action per round, and not any other actions. Compare to the staggered condition, which says “A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions.”

So, Nauseated condition would prevent the character from using the free attempt to escape the grapple when placed in a hazardous square.

It prevents other actions. A “free attempt” isn’t an action. If you find evidence of why the explicit “free attempt” would be considered an action, please provide.


Humm..
It seems not everyone agree on the same thing.

I can't find anywhere that the free attempt is without doubt an action.

"If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check"

"the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus"

Should we interpret this as a free standard action to break grapple? Maybe, but it's not 100% sure.

If we look at the definition of "action",
1.
the process or state of acting or of being active:
The machine is not in action now.
2.
something done or performed; act; deed.
3.
an act that one consciously wills and that may be characterized by physical or mental activity

It's obvious it is an action.

But! The definition of action by Pathfinder doesn't include anything about "attempt" :
An action is a discrete measurement of time during a round of combat. Using abilities, casting spells, and making attacks all require actions to perform. There are a number of different kinds of actions, such as a standard action, move action, swift action, free action, and full-round action.

Maybe it should be ruled like a reaction? I can't find the rules about that, is it outside of the normal actions rules?


I know it's not the same thing, but the "reactive fashion" part might be interesting.

"Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity."

So, since the free attempt is in a reactive fashion, should it also "cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity"

The Concordance

If you don’t allow free escape artist attempts, would you also disallow other reactive skill checks?

Nauseated creatures can no longer discern a bluff, see a stealthed creature, catch a pickpocket, etc.


I've been looking over the wording and I can find other things that are "free attempts" and so far as I can tell, the intention of such wording is that this attempt may be made as a free action.

Unseat (Combat) wrote:
Benefits: When charging an opponent while mounted and wielding a lance, resolve the attack as normal. If it hits, you may immediately make a free bull rush attempt in addition to the normal damage.

Also,

Cavalier Order of the Hammer wrote:
Challenge: An order of the hammer cavalier can attempt a free grapple check or free sunder combat maneuver check anytime she takes the full-attack action against the target of her challenge.

Now that being said, I was looking over the grappling rules and the nauseated condition normally screws you out of being able to do anything useful. Makes me want to make a grapple build character that somehow is able to nauseate their victims...

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