This seems ridiculous, so am I missing something?
Nope! Starfinder does not use size modifiers for combat maneuvers (or armor class, or skill checks, or many other things). It does seem a bit strange if you're coming from a Pathfinder background, but it's just one of the many rules changes between systems.
What about facehuggers in Aliens?
Size better not affect grapples, otherwise the Skittermander +2 grapple racial modifier is incredibly devalued because they are a small race.
It's not how big you are, it's how you use what you do have.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not how big you are, it's how you use what you do have.
Exactly! I once had an insane halfling grappler who successfully made the check to grapple a dragon. It was described as him reaching his stubby little arms into the dragon's nostrils, grabbing fistfulls of nose hair, hooking his feet under the dragon's jaw, and yanking hard enough to cause the dragon great pain and bringing it to heel. Also had the benefit of keeping its mouth shut, so it couldn't use its bite or breath weapon.
go wrestle with a full grown adult and then go do the same with a child...after you explain to the cops what you were doing and spend a little time in jail and then report to your community where you now live, think back to those two instances and tell me that size didn't matter in the grapple
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
go wrestle with a full grown adult and then go do the same with a child...after you explain to the cops what you were doing and spend a little time in jail and then report to your community where you now live, think back to those two instances and tell me that size didn't matter in the grapple
Do the adult and child have the same strength, as verified through a comprehensive weight lifting challenge, and similar skill level, as demonstrated by equivalent W/L records against similar foes? Because unless they do this analogy is busted.
SO BUSTED!
I've always liked that size doesn't add much, but rather it's the statblock and overall CR that counts.
go wrestle with a full grown adult and then go do the same with a child...after you explain to the cops what you were doing and spend a little time in jail and then report to your community where you now live, think back to those two instances and tell me that size didn't matter in the grappleDo the adult and child have the same strength, as verified through a comprehensive weight lifting challenge, and similar skill level, as demonstrated by equivalent W/L records against similar foes? Because unless they do this analogy is busted.
so you're saying that if we took a person, cloned them, but miniaturized them (but somehow kept the same level of strength), they'd be equally as dangerous in a grapple? Weight class is a thing for a reason.
so you're saying that if we took a person, cloned them, but miniaturized them (but somehow kept the same level of strength), they'd be equally as dangerous in a grapple? Weight class is a thing for a reason.go wrestle with a full grown adult and then go do the same with a child...after you explain to the cops what you were doing and spend a little time in jail and then report to your community where you now live, think back to those two instances and tell me that size didn't matter in the grappleDo the adult and child have the same strength, as verified through a comprehensive weight lifting challenge, and similar skill level, as demonstrated by equivalent W/L records against similar foes? Because unless they do this analogy is busted.
I'm saying that by rules definition such people in Starfinder who have "similar skill level, as demonstrated by equivalent W/L records against similar foes" are equally dangerous as grapplers.
Grappling is an interesting word. I think a lot of the respondents here are confusing wrestling with grappling.
I don't think size is or should be a limitation when you are grappling an enemy and I particularly like Ravingdorks halfling story as a good example.
When you grapple with someone or something it doesn't mean you are trying to choke them out or toss them somewhere, it simply means you are grappling with them. It could be that you are grappling the arm holding the gun, or you've gotten round behind them and have them by the waist or torso. The grappled condition is quite vague in it's wording of how you are grappled (rightfully so imho). It simply stats that 'You cannot run or charge; you take a –1 penalty to AC, attack rolls, melee damage rolls, Reflex saves, initiative checks, and Str- and Dex-based skill and ability checks; and you reduce your encumbered limit by 1 bulk.'
There's nothing in the rules that state that you can't use a single handed action.. like firing a pistol or stabbing with a single handed weapon... It simply means that in some way you are being hindered by something holding on to you. It could be something smaller than you, or it could be something larger. If something is blocking your vision or weighing down your shooting arm, it amounts to the same thing. Remember, that the grappled condition and the pinned condition are different conditions and a pinned opponent doesn't mean that the opponent is wrapped up like a boa constrictor. Someone could have their hands pinned because you wrapped them together with a belt in a deft (KAC+13 DC) maneuver.
Grappling just means that your are contending with the opponent in some physical way meant to hinder them. Try throwing a baseball with a 10 lb weight attached to it. It can throw off even the best pitchers.
I'm saying that by rules definition such people in Starfinder who have "similar skill level, as demonstrated by equivalent W/L records against similar foes" are equally dangerous as grapplers.so you're saying that if we took a person, cloned them, but miniaturized them (but somehow kept the same level of strength), they'd be equally as dangerous in a grapple? Weight class is a thing for a reason.go wrestle with a full grown adult and then go do the same with a child...after you explain to the cops what you were doing and spend a little time in jail and then report to your community where you now live, think back to those two instances and tell me that size didn't matter in the grappleDo the adult and child have the same strength, as verified through a comprehensive weight lifting challenge, and similar skill level, as demonstrated by equivalent W/L records against similar foes? Because unless they do this analogy is busted.
that's not the argument though. The argument is about the analogy and whether or not its busted. You chose to enter in further criteria into an analogy for whatever reasons, to which I gave you that scenario and asked a question regarding it. Starfinder's rules don't enter into it. Only whether a smaller version of a grappler is just as dangerous as their full sized self. I think it's pretty evident that no, they would not be. They might have the skill, and somehow be just as strong, but they lose in weight and reach, which are big components to physical combat, especially when we're talking in such a degree as the size of creatures in Pathfinder or Starfinder. Not a couple of inches and 10 or so pounds, but 3+ feet and 100+ pounds.
|
PF1 grappling was silly and, if you focused in it, broken. Ravingdork's example is only sensible if the dragon was large sized. Anything larger than that and the visualization doesn't make sense (and not just because reptiles don't have nose hair) because there would definitely be well over 3" of distance between a huge sized dragon's nose holes and bottom of chin.
There absolutely is a difference in grappling when size is considered. However, it is not insurmountable. A larger opponent has a default advantage because they are larger, but that does not mean that the smaller opponent can't be better at grappling.
yeah, but he should, that is kind of the issue being discussed. Size plays a large part in grappling. It's not an automatic win (which is reflected in more than just a size modifier being compared to see who wins), but it is a large part.
yeah, but he should, that is kind of the issue being discussed. Size plays a large part in grappling. It's not an automatic win (which is reflected in more than just a size modifier being compared to see who wins), but it is a large part.
Not in Starfinder. You see that mosquito over there? Prepare to be be drained when he grapples your arm and sucks you dry!!!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
that's not the argument though. The argument is about the analogy and whether or not its busted. You chose to enter in further criteria into an analogy for whatever reasons, to which I gave you that scenario and asked a question regarding it. Starfinder's rules don't enter into it. Only whether a smaller version of a grappler is just as dangerous as their full sized self. I think it's pretty evident that no, they would not be. They might have the skill, and somehow be just as strong, but they lose in weight and reach, which are big components to physical combat, especially when we're talking in such a degree as the size of creatures in Pathfinder or Starfinder. Not a couple of inches and 10 or so pounds, but 3+ feet and 100+ pounds.I'm saying that by rules definition such people in Starfinder who have "similar skill level, as demonstrated by equivalent W/L records against similar foes" are equally dangerous as grapplers.so you're saying that if we took a person, cloned them, but miniaturized them (but somehow kept the same level of strength), they'd be equally as dangerous in a grapple? Weight class is a thing for a reason.go wrestle with a full grown adult and then go do the same with a child...after you explain to the cops what you were doing and spend a little time in jail and then report to your community where you now live, think back to those two instances and tell me that size didn't matter in the grappleDo the adult and child have the same strength, as verified through a comprehensive weight lifting challenge, and similar skill level, as demonstrated by equivalent W/L records against similar foes? Because unless they do this analogy is busted.
So... ever try to cook/type/wrap a present whilst a cat is in the room and wants to wrestle/play?...or a 3 rear old? Size is not gonna stop you from being hampered... true they will be shrugged off... but you WILL be distracted (using in game mechanics this is expressed in various mods to AC... and attacks
Size plays a large part in grappling.
Size doesn't matter!
Starfinder is a cinematic game, not a realistic game, and its a game which prioritizes playability over precision. As such, size-modifiers lose on two counts.
1. "Size is an advantage is realistic" is irrelevant. Starfinder is the kind of setting where small grapplers are supposed to be able to win over larger foes, if built properly.
hmmm, I must have missed that in the setting design goals. Seems more like that they were trying to make a game for people who can't keep track of more than two numbers.
2. "Size is an advantage" is an extra modifiers which overlaps with the usually-true modifier of "The big guy has big Strength". Adding an extra bonus isn't worth it when the big guy already usually gets a relevant bonus.
not every detail needs representation in a game to maintain verisimilitude, but major things help, especially when they are details that make logical sense and have existed for numerous previous editions, and that are still used in other parts of the games current mechanics (why size modifiers come into play when attacking objects and not anything else, I'll never fathom)
This seems ridiculous, so am I missing something?Nope! Starfinder does not use size modifiers for combat maneuvers (or armor class, or skill checks, or many other things). It does seem a bit strange if you're coming from a Pathfinder background, but it's just one of the many rules changes between systems.
I would wager they simply forgot to include: "Your target cannot be more than two sizes larger than you" in the description.
Pathfinder 2 has the same line in the description of grapple.
I don't think such a restriction causes ANY problem to the "cinematic" vs realistc feel of the game. No one in their right mind can say their combat would be ruined if their tiny character cannot stop (because that's what grapple does, it HOLDS A CREATURE IN PLACE) an Elicoth with their bare hands.
I think it's a huge stretch to try and justify a no size limit to this. I think far more likely they simply missed this one error.
I am suggesting this be added to the errata, please.
Thank you
...
When you grapple with someone or something it doesn't mean you are trying to choke them out or toss them somewhere, it simply means you are grappling with them. It could be that you are grappling the arm holding the gun, or you've gotten round behind them and have them by the waist or torso. The grappled condition is quite vague in it's wording of how you are grappled (rightfully so imho). It simply stats that 'You cannot run or charge; you take a –1 penalty to AC, attack rolls, melee damage rolls, Reflex saves, initiative checks, and Str- and Dex-based skill and ability checks; and you reduce your encumbered limit by 1 bulk.'...
This is quoting the fatigued condition, not the grappled condition. Grappled says: "You are restrained by a creature, effect, or trap. You can’t move, and you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class, attack rolls, Reflex saving throws, initiative checks, and Dexterity-based skill and ability checks, except those made to grapple your opponent in turn or to escape a grapple (see Grapple on page 246). In addition, you can’t take actions that require two hands (or other limbs) to perform. You can’t make attacks of opportunity."
To my thinking, the entangled condition would make more sense, particularly when a small creature is on a much larger creature. It's perfectly reasonable to take the various penalties to AC and have other limitations on the actions you can take, but there are clearly cases where a small creature that grabs hold of you somewhere need not prevent you from moving, particularly if the grappler is small and the target creature is large. A GM may be able to come up with some odd way for it to work like the halfling on the dragon example given above, but that begins to feel ridiculous if used regularly.
The scenario that brought me to this page is a medium creature with the bite + grab attack bites an uplifted bear PC. The uplifted bear entry states they have an average weight of up to 1500 lb, while the creature with grab weighs 200 lb, something like a large dog. It's easy to see how the dog could bite and hold onto the bear. But even if this disabled one leg, the bear could still move on its other three limbs and easily has the strength and weight to drag the dog with him.
For the sake of argument, suppose the creature with an attack + grab ability is a small creature, such as a Kaion, a Synapse Worm, or a Jakkerant. It is reasonable that any of these could satisfy the requirement to make a hit vs KAC + 4 of a large CR 1 creature and latch onto the much bigger creature. It is reasonable that the creature could be distracted and take penalties to AC, attacks, etc. But I find it hard to see how such a small creature could prevent a much larger creature from moving much less pin it.
Other aspects of the grappled condition don't make sense when a small creature grapples a large creature. The grappled condition says "you can’t take actions that require two hands (or other limbs) to perform." A large creature could have its two arms/hands out of reach of a small creature with a bite + grab, so the only reasonable place to grab would a creature's leg or lower body. Why would that prevent firing a rifle?
The problem to me is that the rules try to conflate grappling, which is more like a wrestling or judo hold that prevents movement with the ability to grab and hold onto the target of an attack. There are cases where simply grabbing and holding on make sense for various creatures, but if they are small and light compared to the target, grappling and pinning seem absurd and no amount of hand-waving that it's a heroic medium that doesn't always have to be realistic will make it plausible.
My homebrew solution is to change the grab rule so that when the creature with the grab ability is smaller than the target, a successful grab results in the target gaining the entangled condition instead of the grappled condition.