War for the Crown and Crownfall Contradict a Lot About Taldor


War for the Crown

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Sometimes it’s worth putting forth ideas even if the person you’re speaking to doesn’t see value in them.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I agree.

It's worth it.

In the courtroom, if the person you're speaking to isn't the judge :)

Scarab Sages

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jscott991 wrote:
That complexity is completely stripped out when you transform it into a sexist, misogynist society that is so backward it treats women like chattel. Except of course, all the women who are grand duchesses . . . or generals . . . or senators . . . or prominent adventurers . . . .

I'm not sure why you're so wedded to this "women as chattel" view of the AP. Other people aren't seeing it. Nothing about the AP suggests it. If you really wanted to run it that way I'd tell you that you sure can make it that way, but you don't even like the idea apparently. Why insist on it?

To give a concrete example, if I were running it I'd mine into the period roughly 1890-1930 in the U.S. or Europe for ideas to set the tone and fill the AP out. Women are doing all sorts of interesting and fantastic things, but don't yet have full rights and are pushing hard to get them.

Another good model would be the late 1950's -1960's Mad Men era when women do have full rights, but attitudes are still quite misogynistic and barriers are still very apparent.

jscott991 wrote:
Ring of Gyges is on to something. Some wires got crossed somewhere between the writing of First Empire and the writing of Crownfall. I have theories, but I find the entire thing very odd.

It seems clear to me at this point that your gripe is really about creative decisions made by the authors. Why not just say so rather than taking pot shots at them over every little thing?

Obviously I can't read their thoughts, but here's my guess about why gender is not mentioned in the "First Empire", and is in the AP. It saves space. Why do it twice? If I were planning an AP and a companion book about Taldor, I wouldn't want to take up space repeating things.

If gender equality is going to play a significant role in the AP, talk about it in the AP. It matters the most there. I couldn't expect everyone playing the AP to buy the companion book, so I can't offload the information on gender to it.

I would use the space in the companion book saved to add something that wouldn't make the cut otherwise.


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Gorbacz wrote:

I agree.

It's worth it.

In the courtroom, if the person you're speaking to isn't the judge :)

Or when there are many others currently undecided who may overhear?


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rdknight wrote:
Nothing about the AP suggests it.

"Taldor’s ancient law that decrees only male heirs may inherit their families’ titles, lands, and the authority that comes with both. Its repeal would be an enormous step forward for all of Taldor’s women and people of other genders." Frasier, War for the Crown: The Player's Guide, p. 4

"Intense traditionalism means Taldan culture is still steeped in sexism and racism that many other nations have spent decades gradually shedding. While any Taldan can own property or hold a title via promotion, marriage, or appointment, the law of primogeniture dictates that only men can inherit, both demonstrating and perpetuating Taldor’s inequalities." Frasier, The Player's Guide, p. 13

"While proud of her nation, Eutropia recognizes the horrible things Taldor has done in the past: the genocide of native Kellids, imposition of strict gender roles, the expulsion of Sarenites." Frasier, The Player's Guide, p. 17

"Your own interpretation of the princess may prioritize additional social reforms beyond the gender equality usually attributed to her." Frasier, The Player's Guide, p. 17

"A ruling class steeped in the racism and sexism . . . ." Frasier, Crownfall, p. 2

"Allowing not only the rabble-rousing Eutropia to inherit family power, but every ill-deserving woman." Hillman, Crownfall, p. 6

"Overturning the backward law will improve not only her own fortunes, but also those of many other Taldan women." Frasier, Crownfall, p. 90

I'm just curious. Nothing in the AP suggests that women are denied power and even full rights?

Nothing in the AP contradicts the existence of powerful women in Taldor: The First Empire serving as senators, grand duchesses, and generals?

Not even a little?

I honestly didn't think my thread would be that controversial. I thought it was a retcon, like "the bearded" or Sarenrae. I thought the discussion would revolve more around why than whether.

I guess I was wrong.

Lantern Lodge Customer Service & Community Manager

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I removed some posts and replies that were argumentative, baiting or insulting.

I appreciate the interest in discussion of a book, however, I think that the "did the word "primogeniture" get misused?" argument has gone in circles enough that it's time to let that go. The authors know the feedback and regardless of whether or not anyone agrees on the usage, the intent has been made clear.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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jscott991 wrote:
rdknight wrote:
Nothing about the AP suggests it.
I'm just curious. Nothing in the AP suggests that women are denied power and even full rights?

As has been indicated multiple times during this thread: sexism does not preclude women in positions of power. It can make it difficult for those women to achieve those positions of power. Yes, they might have to achieve far greater deeds than their male colleagues to be recognised. Or they might have not been the preferred selection, but it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Your quotes are evidence of a sexist culture, which exists, not evidence of a misogynistic or completely patriarchal culture, which you seem to think it must be.

Also of note: there aren't any quotes from the actual "action" of the AP books. They're all back matter material. If sexism/misogyny were so rampant as you claim, why would the adventure material not reflect this?

jscott991 wrote:
...a sexist, misogynist society that is so backward it treats women like chattel.

This point remains unproven.

jscott991 wrote:
I honestly didn't think my thread would be that controversial. I thought it was a retcon, like "the bearded" or Sarenrae. I thought the discussion would revolve more around why than whether.

Your previous attempts to question the "why" of the matter has been to call out the authours as being to unable to communicate and read their own material, which is disrespectful and it's unsurprising why people are refusing to engage on this point.


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jscott991 wrote:
I guess I was wrong.

I think what you were wrong about was the unjustified conclusion that Taldor being a sexist, misogynist culture implies it won't have women in positions of power. This is contradicted frequently in the real world, but this is what you rely on to derive what you see as a contradiction. There's one sentence in the player's guide which has unfortunate wording, the rest is broadly consistent with previous canon (making allowances for ten years of shifting authors/creative responsibility and evolving positions within Paizo).

You can't be wrong about not liking the AP, of course. You're just taking "I wouldn't have done it like that" and phrasing it as "That doesn't make sense".


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I've been a fan of Taldor since the beginning of the setting, and I don't think this AP contradicts anything about Taldor so far. 'Taldor, The First Empire' is relatively brand new and basically filled the gaping hole that existed in lieu of the quite meager 'sample' we had been given way back with 'Taldor, Echoes of Glory' (and I loooooooooved that sample, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't even an appetizer)

Now, after 10 years' worth of PFS scenarios, and small recaps and add-ons here an there (such as in Inner Sea World Guide), we finally got 'The First Empire" gloriously handed to us pretty much at the same time as the AP, relatively speaking.

We will need months and perhaps years to fully digest the large glut of banquet food that's been dropped on our collective lap.

It's Christmas day, dammit. Be joyous and festive. Stop poo-pooing the moment I've been waiting for. Don't obsess over one single little dam detail of the AP. Have you notice we got a map of the Senate? Have you noticed we got a non-magical clockwork device for noise cancellation? Have you noticed we got relics back into this game? Have you noticed that a 7th level fighter in fullplate is coming at your 1st level PC?!? DAMMM! Enjoy the beautiful Taldor AP. Take everything in stride, and remember it's a game.


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GM PDK wrote:
It's Christmas day, dammit. Be joyous and festive. Stop poo-pooing the moment I've been waiting for. Don't obsess over one single little dam detail of the AP.

It's a pretty big detail, as the pervasiveness of all the quotes about it show.

That being said, I loved First Empire. Loved it. It puts Echoes to Glory to shame. It undid some silliness in the older book (the bearded stuff) and gave us a fully fleshed out empire.

And it introduced a ton of amazing female NPCs! General Gwein. Just awesome. Grand Duchess Solari. Scheming and tons of interesting nuggets crammed into a small space. Grand Duchess Tiberan. Political neophyte trying to ignore the growing revolution. Just so cool.

It gave Taldor tons of interesting, sophisticated problems that Eutropia would have to solve if she took power. A bloated bureaucracy. A treasury perpetually in deficit. Tensions with Qadira. Nobles ignoring Taldor's progressive, post-feudalism structure. It hinted that Eutropia seeks to return Taldor to glory (which I admit that I define closer to what Crownfall says Pythareus is about).

That's why I was devastated to read Crownfall (and I probably shouldn't have purchased it, since I don't intend to GM or play it; I just love the older version of Eutropia and was greedy for more details). It twisted Taldor from a complex, decaying empire into a simplistic, black-hatted state. And it transformed Eutropia into a white-hatted paladin of very modernist politics (I'm absolutely shocked she's a monarchist, frankly, given how she's written in the Player's Guide).

War for the Crown has changed Taldor forever. It means that future material on it will use Crownfall as the foundation (and not First Empire), whether there are contradictions or not. It basically turns the Taldor I loved in First Empire and the older Campaign Setting into head canon.

GM PDK wrote:
Remember it's a game.

I don't think I'm the one that forgot that in this case.


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I dunno man, I think we're reading different books.

I didn't get that at all.


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jscott991 wrote:

It's a pretty big detail, as the pervasiveness of all the quotes about it show.

[...]

That's why I was devastated to read Crownfall (and I probably shouldn't have purchased it, since I don't intend to GM or play it; I just love the older version of Eutropia and was greedy for more details). It twisted Taldor from a complex, decaying empire into a simplistic, black-hatted state. And it transformed Eutropia into a white-hatted paladin of very modernist politics (I'm absolutely shocked she's a monarchist, frankly, given how she's written in the Player's Guide).

War for the Crown has changed Taldor forever. It means that future material on it will use Crownfall as the foundation (and not First Empire), whether there are contradictions or not. It basically turns the Taldor I loved in First Empire and the older Campaign Setting into head canon.

- It's a small detail. Taldans are a hard-working, sturdy lot, and whatever Martella or Eutropia are doing, even though it seems super important to them and the PCs, won't matter much to the farmers and artisans outside of Oppara.

- Don't quite understand your perception of the 'older version of Eutropia'; Crownfall doesn't change her previous one-liner outlook IMO, it just moves her from 2D to 3D. Paladin? what? and surprised that she's a monarchist? you're not even leery a little bit that she might, say, be doing this a tiny little bit for... herself? you don't see 'some' truths and some undercurrents of red herring-ity in the Grand Prince's speech in the Senate? :) Oh she's glam awright! Oh she's in with the kids! (and some Senators apparently, and she won the vote!) Paladin? ahem... no.

- Don't understand how you can see Taldor as simplistic now that this AP has come out, with all the plots, and maps, and plotting Senators, etc.

- Turns the Taldor you loved from 'First Empire' into head canon? now you're just being dramatic. You haven't had the time to really love 'First Empire' yet... you just met her, so it's all lust and fun and games at this point. Then you saw her at work, being bossy and confident and getting s~~* done, and it just scared you a little, but she'll still be the loving 'First Empire' when she comes home and asks you what's for supper! :)

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't really get how those two lines convince you that Crownfall is completely contradicting First Empire when they are only two lines and content of the adventure doesn't support that view.

You are taking two sentences and making them bigger deal than they are(Taldor can be sexist without it being only reason why Eutropia wants to become the empress), while ignoring parts of Crownfall that shows it doesn't contradict First Empire, such as the Countess Pace and Malphene Trent.

Like I said, Malphene Trent is transwoman supporting the traditionalists. You can see why I find it absurd to claim Crownfall portrays Taldor as place were women can't have power?


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
Like I said, Malphene Trent is transwoman supporting the traditionalists. You can see why I find it absurd to claim Crownfall portrays Taldor as place were women can't have power?

Did I miss something? Where do you get that Malphene Trent is a transwoman?


hehehe... look at the gear... :)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Read through her character description and her inventory.

Its rather well written, you can actually realize it from her character description alone, but its confirmed by her inventory.

What did you guys think I meant when I said earlier that she has recently transitioned? <_< No seriously, tell me if I'm misunderstanding English language or terminology?


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GM PDK wrote:
hehehe... look at the gear... :)

Oh, wow. Can't believe I missed that. Thanks.

I think I read "her recent coming out as a refined young lady among Opparan society" as referring to the debutante thing that nobles and socialites do, but of course it can be interpreted to refer to her transition.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Zaister wrote:
GM PDK wrote:
hehehe... look at the gear... :)

Oh, wow. Can't believe I missed that. Thanks.

I think I read "her recent coming out as a refined young lady among Opparan society" as referring to the debutante thing that nobles and socialites do, but of course it can be interpreted to refer to her transition.

You're not the only one. That was my initial reading as well. I can't believe I missed that! That's incredible.


Crystal answered some of my Qs about that in the product thread, if you're interested.


GM PDK wrote:
Turns the Taldor you loved from 'First Empire' into head canon? now you're just being dramatic. You haven't had the time to really love 'First Empire' yet... you just met her, so it's all lust and fun and games at this point. Then you saw her at work, being bossy and confident and getting s##* done, and it just scared you a little, but she'll still be the loving 'First Empire' when she comes home and asks you what's for supper! :)

Simply awesome. :)

Liberty's Edge

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and always remember in "The Game" you must make your enemies seem to be vile villains and you the hero, otherwise ......

Which is a reason I love the way the AP is written, the book itself is written to convey the same mentality of "The Game" as it where with bits of subtly woven here and there that show not all is as it seems.

All in All it is a good AP, and they did make changes in the setting to make the AP run a little smoother.

You are right there are Contradictions, just like there are Contradictions in real life.

we have a Player in it as a 'Royal Assassin' whom plans on killing anyone or anything that get's in the way of the princess getting the throne. Will this cause issues in the AP? Yup, you betcha, can our characters do much about it? Nope, in character we have no clue to it yet.

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