Expending resonance to identify magic items?


Prerelease Discussion


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Erik Mona has expressed his loathing for magic item identification in PF1. I think we can all sympathize - identifying magic items has always been super clunky. When you find a dragon hoard with 8 magic items, does anyone actually look up the CL of all eight items and then force each party member that uses Detect Magic to roll eight different Spellcraft checks?

Resonance allows a super elegant and simple solution. My proposal:

A character in contact with a magic item may expend one point of resonance to identify the magic properties of that item.

That's it. No magic required, no checks, no slowing down the game by looking up item caster levels.

It makes intuitive sense because resonance is a character's capacity for interacting with magic items.

And it provides at least somewhat of a meaningful choice - when you find the item, do you blow your resonance immediately to identify it, in case you might want to use it later that day? Or do you conserve your resonance until just before resting, in case you need the resonance during a fight? And if you find multiple magic items (maybe more rare in PF2 but I assume dragons still exist) then which one do you identify first? Or do you blow through your resonance to identify them all?

This seems about 1000x more elegant than PF1's system. What do other people think?


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I agree that the system needs to be altered. Using resonance would be interesting but I think doing so would activate the item, not necessarily give you intrinsic information as to what it does. I prefer to keep some of the mystery about what magic items do when I can.


With magic items being less necessary for the game to work, I wouldn't mind seeing identify move back to a level 1 spell. The spell just gives you a good bonus you can still fail the check. I'm old school that way though.

Instead of your idea, I'd say just identify magic items at no cost. 1 resonance point seems like an arbitrary speed bump. /Not Signed

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like it. It's very much like activating an item blindly using UMD.


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The possibility of not knowing what a magic item does for a while is a good thing to me. So spending resonance and auto-succeed in identifying the item's properties isn't the right thing for me.

I think it wouldn't be so bad if the identification dc were right there in the magic item description. Which we would have to look up anyway by the way, because magic items do more special things than in PF1.

Grand Lodge

As others have said, having to work to identify an item provides some mystery. If you have a small level 1 party without a spellcaster, why would this party just be able to blow resonance to identify a powerful magical item?

The other problem with using resonance to identify is cursed items. I love cursed items and use them all of the time. I was in a campaign where >50% of magic items were cursed and it was great (the cursing was part of the story, btw). How would cursed item identification work with your method?


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I found the Erik Mona quote, it's at 32:03 in the Know Direction interview.

Erik Mona at 32:03 wrote:
I hate identifying magic items, I think that's the stupidest waste of time in the entire game. I don't like that kind of “Mother may I?” secret-holding from players, it doesn't help at all. Just tell them it's a +1 sword and move on with it. Now I know how we are addressing that in second edition and I think it's pretty awesome. So that's one thing that I really don't like. Let me think a little bit about some of the other ones... but that, I hate that with a burning passion.

To those who are advocating the mystery element, do you actually use RAW to identify magic items in PF1? Because in my experience, there's never much interesting mystery to it. Usually one or two casters have detect magic prepared, and they roll their Spellcraft, and then they either get it and you learn about the item (no mystery,) or else they wait a day and try again, and maybe prepare identify to buff the roll, or maybe take it to town to purchase a casting of identify, and you basically still always learn exactly what the item is, but now you've wasted a whole bunch of game time.

I think it would be more fun if your fighter could just walk up to an item that looks special, and use their instinctive connection with magic (i.e. resonance) to temporarily bond with the item and understand its secrets.

If you don't use RAW, what is your preferred method of item identification?

As for cursed items, one option would be that this method is unable to detect curses at all, you need special specific magic spells to detect curses. (You could also exploit the fact that this method requires physical contact with the item, and have a curse that triggers immediately on contact.)


We play detect magic=auto know Aura (ex: strong abjuration) and identify=auto know what it is


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Yeah, because not only do you need resonance to attune magic items, utilise consumable and activate class abilities lets add more demands on it...

And I'm with Eric on this one in principle. Keeping the abilities of magic items from your players adds nothing to the game. If the party have no means to ID a magic item, but try using it it's just another thing I have to keep track of and I'd rather focus on other things when I'm GMing.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

There are plots that might involve mysterious magic items. But, those would probably be artifacts, and I'm okay with artifacts as the exception.


Think it would make more sense as an Occult or maybe Craft check...


Crayon wrote:
Think it would make more sense as an Occult or maybe Craft check...

Is that fun though? Does anyone get a kick out of rolling and potentially failing one of these checks? At which point they just stash it in their pack and have to carry a mental note to try again tomorrow... it's just a drag!


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opps, out of resonance what a drag...


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As an alternative how about being able to ID magic items as long as you have at least 1 resonance in pool, or 1 resonance/3-5 CL of the item.


Identifying magic items is an very fun and rewarding part of the game for me!

… when I'm playing an Occultist. (It's so satisfying just knowing the details without having to roll anything.)


dragonhunterq wrote:
As an alternative how about being able to ID magic items as long as you have at least 1 resonance in pool, or 1 resonance/3-5 CL of the item.

I'd actually like to see abilities like this, TBH. Things that don't require you to /spend/ resonance, just /have/ it. This works well with the envoy class in Starfinder.


QuidEst wrote:

Identifying magic items is an very fun and rewarding part of the game for me!

… when I'm playing an Occultist. (It's so satisfying just knowing the details without having to roll anything.)

Yes, see that's the experience I'm trying to replicate! Although TBH I didn't even know the occultist could do that. It does offer another alternative for how to handle cursed items as well.

Object Reading (Su) wrote:

At 2nd level, an occultist learns how to read information from items he examines.

Examining an item in this way requires him to spend 1 minute handling the item. If the item is a magic item, the occultist learns its properties and command word as if he had successfully examined the item using detect magic and succeeded at a Spellcraft check. This ability does not reveal whether the item is cursed unless the occultist’s class level is equal to or greater than the caster level of the item. If the item has any historical significance, the occultist learns one piece of information about its past (as determined by the GM). Finally, if the item was last used no longer than 1 day ago per the occultist’s class level, the occultist learns one piece of information about the last creature to use the item. This information might be a glimpse of the creature’s appearance, a brief vision of what it saw while using the item, or perhaps its emotional state when it last used the item. The GM determines what information is gained in this way. This functions like the psychometry occult skill unlock, but doesn’t require a skill check and can be used at will.


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Maybe make the Occultist's object reading a low proficiency skill feat for the occultism skill? It takes a minute (too long to be combat relevant, too short to be a burden on gameplay), automatically identifies item properties without a need to roll, and only determines if the item is cursed if your level is higher than the item's.

The occultist, which comes later, can get something else instead or get it automatically.


Leedwashere wrote:

Maybe make the Occultist's object reading a skill feat for the occultism skill? It takes a minute (too long to be combat relevant, too short to be a burden on gameplay), automatically identifies item properties without a need to roll, and only determines if the item is cursed if your level is higher than the item's.

The occultist, which comes later, can get something else instead or get it automatically.

Spending a feat for something you'll use just a handful of times (what with magic items becoming more rare) seems like a tough sell. And then what is your alternative if you don't have that feat?


RumpinRufus wrote:
Leedwashere wrote:

Maybe make the Occultist's object reading a skill feat for the occultism skill? It takes a minute (too long to be combat relevant, too short to be a burden on gameplay), automatically identifies item properties without a need to roll, and only determines if the item is cursed if your level is higher than the item's.

The occultist, which comes later, can get something else instead or get it automatically.

Spending a feat for something you'll use just a handful of times (what with magic items becoming more rare) seems like a tough sell. And then what is your alternative if you don't have that feat?

While a large category of magic items are going away, I don't think that necessarily means that they're becoming more rare as a whole. I think a handful of times will be a low estimate for most campaigns.

I would say that if nobody in the whole group is willing to cross that very low barrier to entry, then perhaps that particular group should live with needing to have outside forces do their identifying for them. I think it's pretty reasonable to have the opportunity cost of the time it takes to go back to town and get and NPC who has crossed that very low barrier to entry be the deciding factor on whether or not even one person is willing to spend a skill feat on it.

Grand Lodge

I'm mostly just against players that have resonance but zero training or familiarity in magic items being able to ID magic items so easily. Spell casters having a "0th level" spell (or whatever it is in 2E) to spend resonance to ID items, that's okay by me. I don't love it, but it's okay; probably better than the current system which is bad.

I think the problem with ID in 1E is that it's too easy, not too hard. I think that IDing a random magic item should be difficult and scale with the power of the item. But I know that's just me. I like low magic campaigns, so the IDing actually becomes more interesting. I can alter my campaigns to work that way. No need to make core that way.

However, I'm not sure about resonance with cursed items. Having a separate process for cursed items is annoying because then that separate process almost becomes mandatory for somewhat cautious PCs.


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Make it a trained Occult skill task that isn't a skill check.

If you handle an item for 1 minute, have resonance left, and your Occult skill rating is equal to or greater than the item's level, you identify it.

Cursed items read as normal items of similar or related function at the above target number. However, you can identify a cursed item if your Occult rating is 10 higher than the cursed item's level.

Grand Lodge

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Fuzzypaws wrote:

Make it a trained Occult skill task that isn't a skill check.

If you handle an item for 1 minute, have resonance left, and your Occult skill rating is equal to or greater than the item's level, you identify it.

Cursed items read as normal items of similar or related function at the above target number. However, you can identify a cursed item if your Occult rating is 10 higher than the cursed item's level.

An option like this sounds very good. Hopefully the Playtest has one that's as good or better.

With this you could do something like "fast ID" as an action in combat but get a -5 to the check. Or "ID without physical contact" and get another -5.


Hurká wrote:

As others have said, having to work to identify an item provides some mystery. If you have a small level 1 party without a spellcaster, why would this party just be able to blow resonance to identify a powerful magical item?

The other problem with using resonance to identify is cursed items. I love cursed items and use them all of the time. I was in a campaign where >50% of magic items were cursed and it was great (the cursing was part of the story, btw). How would cursed item identification work with your method?

All magic should be cursed if you use it wrong and not cursed if you use it right. I like magic items to have a personality and a preference. Too low level to use the item? Cursed. Magic item doesn't like that you are storing it in a bag of holding with 27 other magic items? It poisons your potions and scrambles your scrolls. I have found the best way to handle my impish glee is by making sure my players know it is coming and making the choice to try anyway. I don't like to spring it on them unawares. If they exceed what I call the Magic Cache, which for simplicity is the sum of the values of all of their magic items, they know something bad might happen.


RumpinRufus wrote:

Erik Mona has expressed his loathing for magic item identification in PF1. I think we can all sympathize - identifying magic items has always been super clunky. When you find a dragon hoard with 8 magic items, does anyone actually look up the CL of all eight items and then force each party member that uses Detect Magic to roll eight different Spellcraft checks?

Resonance allows a super elegant and simple solution. My proposal:

A character in contact with a magic item may expend one point of resonance to identify the magic properties of that item.

That's it. No magic required, no checks, no slowing down the game by looking up item caster levels.

It makes intuitive sense because resonance is a character's capacity for interacting with magic items.

And it provides at least somewhat of a meaningful choice - when you find the item, do you blow your resonance immediately to identify it, in case you might want to use it later that day? Or do you conserve your resonance until just before resting, in case you need the resonance during a fight? And if you find multiple magic items (maybe more rare in PF2 but I assume dragons still exist) then which one do you identify first? Or do you blow through your resonance to identify them all?

This seems about 1000x more elegant than PF1's system. What do other people think?

I think your solution is elegant and would be fun, but I would require the player say how many points of resonance they are using (and they would never be sure whether it was enough to get all of the info).


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Maybe the amount of Resonance you expend when identifying an item determines whether you are able to identify a cursed item in time to avoid being stuck with it? There would, of course, need to be some incentive to identify items quickly so that the risk does not necessarily go away even with plenty of downtime.


RumpinRufus wrote:

Erik Mona has expressed his loathing for magic item identification in PF1. I think we can all sympathize - identifying magic items has always been super clunky. When you find a dragon hoard with 8 magic items, does anyone actually look up the CL of all eight items and then force each party member that uses Detect Magic to roll eight different Spellcraft checks?

Resonance allows a super elegant and simple solution. My proposal:

A character in contact with a magic item may expend one point of resonance to identify the magic properties of that item.

That's it. No magic required, no checks, no slowing down the game by looking up item caster levels.

It makes intuitive sense because resonance is a character's capacity for interacting with magic items.

And it provides at least somewhat of a meaningful choice - when you find the item, do you blow your resonance immediately to identify it, in case you might want to use it later that day? Or do you conserve your resonance until just before resting, in case you need the resonance during a fight? And if you find multiple magic items (maybe more rare in PF2 but I assume dragons still exist) then which one do you identify first? Or do you blow through your resonance to identify them all?

This seems about 1000x more elegant than PF1's system. What do other people think?

Since you need resonance to activate your items in the first place this is a terrible idea. All this will do is have magic item ID take place just before going to bed, when you know that you don't need your resonance any more.


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Hurká wrote:

I think the problem with ID in 1E is that it's too easy, not too hard. I think that IDing a random magic item should be difficult and scale with the power of the item. But I know that's just me. I like low magic campaigns, so the IDing actually becomes more interesting. I can alter my campaigns to work that way. No need to make core that way.

However, I'm not sure about resonance with cursed items. Having a separate process for cursed items is annoying because then that separate process almost becomes mandatory for somewhat cautious PCs.

Hurka, you are most definitely not alone. There is mystery in finding an item that is magical and then having to do something to figure out what the magic is and how it works/activates. This has always been a part of this type of game. It is not a video game where things are super streamlined, or a boardgame which is a single setting, it is a roleplay which is long term in nature. I get it that some of you out there think it is tedious to have to keep track of secrets from your players, but that is just part of the job, otherwise, you would not be needed. Forgot what that item was when they found it a month ago? Not too big a deal, make something up and go with it, or do what the rest of us do and keep notes of the things that happen.

This next part is directed specifically at Eric Mona: I get it, you do not like some parts of the game you are a part of making better/changing. Please do not let your personal agenda morph this into something less. The element of mystery is part of what makes this a wonderful game. If you do not like the current clunky mechanic, then fix it, that is most definitely within your purview, but do not eliminate it. Finding a way to understand your new magic items is a distinct part of making this game what it is and the possibility of cursed items and the hijinks that ensue from getting one is another essential part of what separates roleplay from gameplay.

I realize there is much we do not yet know about the new system, especially concerning what they are doing to the breath of magic items currently in play. Some changes may just be too much.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I was meaning to suggest that the Resonance expended to identify an item also equipped/attuned it for the first time, at which point the item is fully identified -- and its curse is activated, if there is one. More Resonance (or some other resource) would be required to identify an item with no risk of incurring any curse it might have.


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The problem with using resonance alone to identify magic items, is that you get to the point where the person trained in magic has used all their resonance for the day, and the one who isn't trained has resonance left.
So you end up with Ug the Barbarian identifying the magic ring for the wizard.

Identifying magic items *must* be a trained-only thing


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Before the magic ring is identifies, how would the barbarian or the wizard have any idea who could make better use of the ring?

If the item in question is (for example) a ring of wizardry, it is possible that the barbarian would fail to identify it because it would have no effect on him.


David knott 242 wrote:

Before the magic ring is identifies, how would the barbarian or the wizard have any idea who could make better use of the ring?

If the item in question is (for example) a ring of wizardry, it is possible that the barbarian would fail to identify it because it would have no effect on him.

Good call. You can only identify an item you can use.

I would say if the item is higher level than you, it would also be able to hide its powers more effectively. At some point, you simply would be unable to identify a magic item until you were close enough in level to be worthy.

Maybe give a magic item some resonance to identify the PC, too. If it learns about you, it might like you (and share more) or not like you (and try to harm you or at least not tell you anything). I'm always interested in making magic items feel more like the One Ring in that they seem to have an agenda, but they can't move, so how they achieve their agenda is mysterious. E.g., How did the ring make you drop it without noticing?

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