2 Handed vs Dual Wielding


Advice

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I am currently playing a unchained monk 1/investigator x, who uses a 2H sansetsukon, with an extra attack from flurry of blows. I do everything in dandy's post except for inspired weapon.

Liberty's Edge

I still want to live the archer investigator dream.


nicholas storm wrote:

Two weapon fighting as a brawler (2 level dip), skews things even further towards 2WF as the brawler can 2WF with one weapon, even a two handed weapon (sansetsukon) or weapon and shield. Using a 2H weapon still gives 1.0x STR, but 1.5x power attack.

At high levels, the only real way to increase damage dramatically is by getting more attacks. So I feel at low levels 2H fighting is good. At high levels, it can't compete with an optimized 2WF build.

That's not really true though.

The fighter succeeds with TWF because of trained grace. Without it the build would do less damage than the THF. It's specifically because it can double the damage from weapon training from 4 to 8.

The brawler lacks this sort of damage bonus. Not to say the brawler is a bad class, but it's not actually that great at TWF because it lacks a big static damage bonus, just like a monk does.

Edit: Missed where you said for a dip. It's okay as a dip, but not amazing. You have to stick with weapons that aren't great until you can get Focused Weapon, and I don't think there is an 18-20 crit range weapon among them (but I'm not sure).


Claxon wrote:
You have to stick with weapons that aren't great until you can get Focused Weapon, and I don't think there is an 18-20 crit range weapon among them (but I'm not sure).

The Waveblade (1d6/18-20/x2) is an exotic light weapon with the monk descriptor.


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Claxon wrote:
You have to stick with weapons that aren't great until you can get Focused Weapon, and I don't think there is an 18-20 crit range weapon among them (but I'm not sure).

No longer true (outside of PFS) thanks to the Versatile Design weapon modification - for Brawler, it even comes with build in proficiency. Nodachi is a prime candidate, but even exotic weapons only require a single extra feat. (Yeah, nothing says "close weapon group" like a 3d6 Butchering Axe.)

Of course, Flurry isn't actually TWF per definition.

@Volkard Abendroth: To be fair, you're using more recources for defense on the 2H build. If we drop the armor's and shield's +2 bonus down to +1, and also ditch the headband (resulting in better AC and Will save still), we can affort Boots of Speed, improving our DPR to 106.5, the 2H build now does 26% more DPR.
Also, with Haste added to both builds, the difference drops to ~13% (and Furious Focus is completely useless, so we could replace it, further decreasing the difference).


Some great points Derkord, though I would considering any custom weapons to be off limits in terms of discussion since those (I think) are meant to be more of a tool for GMs to develop unique weapons for the world, then for players to use to maximize their characters.


Derklord wrote:

@Volkard Abendroth: To be fair, you're using more recources for defense on the 2H build. If we drop the armor's and shield's +2 bonus down to +1, and also ditch the headband (resulting in better AC and Will save still), we can affort Boots of Speed, improving our DPR to 106.5, the 2H build now does 26% more DPR.

Also, with Haste added to both builds, the difference drops to ~13% (and Furious Focus is completely useless, so we could replace it, further decreasing the difference).

Quite a few more resources.

THF is significantly less feat intensive; those extra feats were spent bringing up AC, Initiative, and Reflex saves to match the bonuses the TWF gets from a high DEX.

If I did a second optimization pass on the TWF build I should have dropped the Dusty Rose Prism, added the nimble property to his armor and picked up a WIS headband.

THF would come out +2 AC and +1 will over the TWF. Initiative, Fort and Ref saves would all be the same as long as the THF has his weapon in hand.

It all works out in the end. TWFing costs extra feats and is more MAD, but gets more benefits from being MAD.

THF has more feats available to spend, raising all the secondary stats that usually benefit from DEX. In the end, he matches or Exceeds the DEX build on most things.

THF deals has lower DPR, but is more effective against DR.
TWF has higher DPR, but only when full attacking things with minimal DR.

Neither build is categorically "better"


Claxon wrote:
Some great points Derkord, though I would considering any custom weapons to be off limits in terms of discussion since those (I think) are meant to be more of a tool for GMs to develop unique weapons for the world, then for players to use to maximize their characters.

They are, and the rules for custom weapons clearly state this.

Creating new weapons wrote:
However, for those cases when new weapon statistics are truly needed, this section introduces rules for GMs to use as guidelines.

Emphasis mine.

I've tried to avoid anything that is controversial or questionable for comparison purposes.

There are niche builds that can do more, but I've tried to stick to clearly defined, mainstream options.

Grand Lodge

Weapon modification and custom weapons are not the same things. Mods come from AA2 and are balanced with cost and proficiencies not unlike the butchering axe raise several times without issue. Custom weapons, on the other hand, are from the weapon master handbook and the rule quoted does not apply to them.


You say that, but I strongly disagree.

Weapon modifications are just as "custom" as making a weapon from scratch. Also, cost is rarely a balance. The example of Versatile design is a great example of how it's not balanced. For 500 gp you can add the weapon to any weapon group? Which was supposed to be an intentional limit on being able to wield certain weapons. Yeah...I wouldn't consider that balanced. Maybe cost as a +1 weapon enhancement, but not for a flat gp rate.


You also have to have a feat to use the weapon modification, or you are non-proficient.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:

You say that, but I strongly disagree.

Weapon modifications are just as "custom" as making a weapon from scratch. Also, cost is rarely a balance. The example of Versatile design is a great example of how it's not balanced. For 500 gp you can add the weapon to any weapon group? Which was supposed to be an intentional limit on being able to wield certain weapons. Yeah...I wouldn't consider that balanced. Maybe cost as a +1 weapon enhancement, but not for a flat gp rate.

To difference is one set of rules explicitly says ask you gm the other is just a thing purchased from a book. The justification for not including it was miss cited not a big deal it happens.

If you want to ban it you have to start making very specific distinctions with regard to splat books using the subjective distinction of balance and not as previously asserted by citing a part of the book. The fauchard is non core, butchering axe came from the same book as mods they are both popular because they are good but are they unbalanced?.

If you don't like them fine but a claim of balance should be supported. They use purchasing, proficiency, and feats so calling them a rules sub-systems seems like a bit of a stretch but I guess that is subjective on my part.

As to balance a feat and 1000gp for +1 damage that seems pretty in line with other mechanics. Adding an additional weapon quality from a short list seems to be in line. Lots of martial pole arms are long spears with better damage and trip or some other feature. Dual balanced is 4000gp and a feat for +1 to attack.

Most are actually underpower versatile designed is the only one that ever get good because a few classes have weapon group class features and in the case of brawlers is tied to weapon proficiency. But I would need actually to see the nodatchi brawler doing unbalanced levels of damage to be convinced. It's +2 damage per attack and a much better crit range but it does not seem far from what unmonk can do with there flurry and two handed weapons like temple swords or Sansetsukons.


Claxon wrote:
Weapon modifications are just as "custom" as making a weapon from scratch.

They're as "custom" as using weapon enchantments from splat books. Seriously, weapon mods are less of a subsystem than AWT is.

I wouldn't touch the weapon building rules with a custom 10-foot-pole with 18-20 crit range, but weapon modifications are basically non-magical weapon enchantments.

Normally, the weapon mods are balanced by the increase in needed proficiency they entail (which not even explicit proficiencies like classes with listed weapons or sacred weapon bypass), it's only the Brawler's unique weapon group proficiency that's making the class automatically proficient with martial weapons enhances with a weapon mod.

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

If I did a second optimization pass on the TWF build I should have dropped the Dusty Rose Prism, added the nimble property to his armor and picked up a WIS headband.

THF would come out +2 AC and +1 will over the TWF. Initiative, Fort and Ref saves would all be the same as long as the THF has his weapon in hand.

Meaning the THF build could still afford Boots of Speed without dropping below TWF's AC and Will save numbers.


I pretty much always have boots of speed by level 10.


nicholas storm wrote:
I pretty much always have boots of speed by level 10.

There are only three ways the THF is going to afford Boots of Speed at 10th level.

  • Give up the Belt of Strength
  • Give up the Gloves of Dueling + 2K from somewhere else
  • Give up all enhancement bonuses on both armor & shield + WIS headband.

The TWF fighter has the same option of selling off his gear for Haste. He looses a base 6 damage on the additional attack as compared to the THF, but gains more benefit from the +1 to-hit on all attacks. The TWF will never choose to give up his Gloves of Dueling.

10 rounds/day of Haste won't cover every round of every fight, if we assume 4 encounters/adventuring day at 3 rnds/encounter. In a campaign with a longer-than-15-minute adventuring day, the percentage of fights you benefit from the boots is even lower.

You're better off having the party caster hit you with Haste or Blessing of Fervor.


With Haste: assuming the additional 12K came from dumping AC+Saves

+2 Nodachi +25/+22/+17 (1d10+26/15-20/x2)

2(.95(31.5)+.95(.3)(31.5)) = 77.895
.7(31.5)+.7(.3)(31.5) = 28.665

DPR = 106.56
Increase in DPR = 41.013

+2 Kukri +19/+19/+14 (1d10+22/15-20/x2)
+2 Kukri +19/+14 (1d10+19/15-20/x2)

2(.8(27.5)+(.8)(.3)(27.5)) = 57.2
.55(27.5)+(.55)(.3)(27.5) = 19.6625
.8(24.5)+(.8)(.3)(24.5) = 25.48
.55(24.5)+(.55)(.3)(24.5) = 17.5175

DPR = 119.86
Increase in DPR = 35.41

The THF gains ~6 DPR more than the TWF, not enough to close the gap. Both builds make significant trade offs in Defense.


nicholas storm wrote:
You also have to have a feat to use the weapon modification, or you are non-proficient.

When weapon proficiency can be acquired via ioun stone it's not much of a restriction. It's not a level 1 thing that can be done, but it's still not much.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
You also have to have a feat to use the weapon modification, or you are non-proficient.
When weapon proficiency can be acquired via ioun stone it's not much of a restriction. It's not a level 1 thing that can be done, but it's still not much.

The cheap stone only takes weapons from exotic to martial familiarity. Brawlers are not proficient with martial weapons, nor rogues, monks inquisitors and many other classes so it does nothing for them. Most exotic weapons are not worth a feat to get proficiency so they are arguably poorly balanced in the opposite direction. Exotic weapons with mods become an even higher category of weapon that requires their own feat so the ioun stone is no help there.

Example 1: polearm fighter can use weapon training on a non-polearm martial weapon for 1500gp + 1000gp. What 'unbalanced' martial weapon are they getting?

Brawlers gain the single greatest benefit because they are always proficient with the close weapon group thus freely gain proficiency from the single mod, meaning they can grab a nodatchi, greatsword, fauchard, falcata etc. This improves two-handed flurry with a quarterstaff to any of the other weapons. It's pretty good but a brawler doing a bit more damage is not broken.

One of the weapon mods has a couple decent uses while most of the rest are actually weak options under the general rule of feats adds +1 to attack or +2 to damage. This seems far from a "broken subsystem".


The only exotic weapons that are remotely worth the feat to use them are the Tongi, Falcata, and Fauchard. None of which can be considered "broken" no matter who is using it or what group you put them in. Especially considering the Rapier, Scimitar, and Bardiche do not require a feat to use.

I would say that the Butchering Axe may be an exception, but you can dual wield Earthbreaker hammers, so it's not that big of a deal.

The argument is feats, not damage, in my opinion. THF gives you options, and can be afforded by any class. TWF removes options and can only be reasonably accomplished by certain classes.

I've played both, and the liberties granted to me by THF allows me to make far more versatile characters in juxtapose to TWF's almost stifling dependency on full attacks.

This is just my limited experience, though.


I fail to see what weapon modification is broken considering the cost of the modification and the feat (or even the cost of an ioun stone).

Versatile design doesn't do much for anyone other than a brawler or someone that wants to use a better weapon for outslug style.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
I pretty much always have boots of speed by level 10.

There are only three ways the THF is going to afford Boots of Speed at 10th level.

  • Give up the Belt of Strength
  • Give up the Gloves of Dueling + 2K from somewhere else
  • Give up all enhancement bonuses on both armor & shield + WIS headband.

The TWF fighter has the same option of selling off his gear for Haste. He looses a base 6 damage on the additional attack as compared to the THF, but gains more benefit from the +1 to-hit on all attacks. The TWF will never choose to give up his Gloves of Dueling.

10 rounds/day of Haste won't cover every round of every fight, if we assume 4 encounters/adventuring day at 3 rnds/encounter. In a campaign with a longer-than-15-minute adventuring day, the percentage of fights you benefit from the boots is even lower.

You're better off having the party caster hit you with Haste or Blessing of Fervor.

Sure, if you play with casters that cast haste on you every battle. Otherwise, boots of speed is the single best item for anyone doing melee or range combat.


nicholas storm wrote:
Sure, if you play with casters that cast haste on you every battle. Otherwise, boots of speed is the single best item for anyone doing melee or range combat.

Boots of Speed contribute nothing to the debate of THF vs TWF.

While THF gains more at very low level, at higher level the difference in benefit between the fighting styles is nominal at best. The math has been provided demonstrating this.

*And no, Boots of speed are not unilaterally "The Best" item. The TWF build I posted would have a significant decrease in DPR if it swapped its Gloves of Dueling for Boots of Speed. The math should always be checked before claims like this are made.


They contribute if one build has them and the other doesn't


nicholas storm wrote:
They contribute if one build has them and the other doesn't

I can make that statement about anything. I would not be wrong.

But, in this case, the item is equally affordable by both, with a similar sacrifice. The substation was done, the number were run. It made no difference in the comparison.


Those DPR numbers for both of those builds are pretty sad. It's no wonder that people talk about caster martial disparity. I have a F10/B2 build that approachs 400DPR vs giants with warrior spirit up.


Equally equipped and both given access to the full array of attacks, you will be hard pressed to find a discernable difference at higher levels.

Different campaigns, different GM's, different classes, and different encounters can help or hinder both.

It all boils down to personal preference, and if you have chosen something that can be supported by the number of feats you have to dedicate to your combat style.

The only thing that makes one better than the other is that you actually want to that style more than the other one.


nicholas storm wrote:
Those DPR numbers for both of those builds are pretty sad. It's no wonder that people talk about caster martial disparity. I have a F10/B2 build that approachs 400DPR vs giants with warrior spirit up.

Make no mistake; I can min/max much higher than 400 DPR with additional iteratives, creative multi-classing, dumping INT & CHA down to 7, using specific deities and alignments, secondary natural attacks, and taking time to prep before a fight against a specific opponent.

But again, it contributes little to the THF vs. TWF debate. If anything, the additional static bonuses would help the TWF far more than the THF character as those bonuses will be applied more times/round.


The relevant point is that I never considered playing that character, because it has no spell casting and requires one round of buffing with no pounce.

In my opinion, every fighter should be an archer.


Every fighter should be an Archer is almost true considering how impossible it is to move in this game. Pounce is guarded like Fort Knox, whilst Rapid Shot is available at level 2.

That isn't the topic of discussion, though. Neither is movement, or the lack thereof, for that matter.

The sad fact of the matter is that arguing about which martial fighting style is better is silly and sad... we all know that if you want to do anything in this game, you gotta cast spells.

You can compare the best 2H build and the best TWF build, and a plain old core rulebook wizard will make a mockery of both.

That's not really the discussion, though, either.


The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit (average damage is assumed)
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit) (average damage is again assumed)
t = Chance to roll a critical threat (expressed as a percentage)
c = Critical hit bonus damage, x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3

--------------------------------------------------------
Please do help amend if there are mistakes in calculations!

Greatsword +2/+1d6 fire vs 2 kukris +2/+1d6 fire (Ye not gonna try model any possible combination, of AC, and weapon bonususes. There is a better equation involving AC somewhere):
Barbarian level 7, 24 str (ye weapon is too good for level 7 but wanted test 1 precision damage stat bonus as well, could make level 9 and adjust power attack)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------

Damage:
Greatsword:(2xd6+2)+1.5str+1.5PA +1d6 //19-20 x2, PA:-2hit/+6damage
Primary Kukri:(d4+2)+str+PA +1d6 //18-20 x2, (-1 feat), -2 hit on all 3 hits, PA:-2hit/+4damage for primary, -2hit/+2damage secondary
Secondary Kukri:(d4+2)+0.5str+0.5PA +1d6

I don't like power attack but I added it to calculations.

----------------------------------------------------------
Greatsword: d=(2x3.5+2)+1.5x7+1.5x4=9+10.5+6=25.5 s=3.5
Primary Kukri: d=(2.5+2)+7+4=15.5 s=3.5
Secondary Kukri: d=(2.5+2)+0.5x7+0.5x4=10 s=3.5

1st hit greatsword: h(d+s)+tchd=h(25.5+3.5)+0.1*h*25.5=29h+2.55h=31.55h
2nd hit greatsword: (h-0.25)(d+s)+tc(h-0.25)d=31.55(h-0.25) (careful the following works if h<=100%=1 and h-0.25>=0. If some reason your h=20%=0.2 then please replace h-0.25=0 and not as -0.05, just sayin... likewise if i had 105% to hit I would use h=100%=1 and h-0.25=80%. Pretty sure there is a better equation where I can dodge this case)

So average greatsword dmg per round is 63.1h-7.8875

----------------------------------------------------------------

1st hit primary kukri: (h-0.1)(d+s)+tc(h-0.1)d=(h-0.1)(15.5+3.5)+0.15(h-0.1)*15.5=(h-0.1)*19+(h-0. 1)*2.325=21.325*(h-0.1)
2nd hit primary kukri: (h-0.35)(d+s)+tc(h-0.35)d=(h-0.35)(15.5+3.5)+0.15(h-0.35)*15.5=(h-0.35)*19+ (h-0.35)*2.325=21.325*(h-0.35)
1st hit secondary kukri: (h-0.1)(d+s)+tc(h-0.1)d=(h-0.1)(10+3.5)+0.15(h-0.1)*10=(h-0.1)*13.5+(h-0.1) *1.5=15*(h-0.1)

So average kukri dmg per round is 36.325*(h-0.1)+21.325*(h-0.35)=57.65h-3.6325-7.46375=57.65h-11.09625

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------

Conclusion: As is 2 handed fighting is better. Of course things would be much different if you start stacking precision damage.
These 2 are linear equations with 0.05 intervals sort of, which allows you to graph as well in case diving to compare doesn't make much sense.
In our case no need to check because is obvious as day that 63.1h-7.8875>57.65h-11.09625 but don't by how much unless we test all h>=0.35 and h<=1 (h=0.35, 0.4, 0.45, ... 1) which seems realistic in terms of monster progression

What's obvious but interesting is that each extra hit I add with the -0.25 additional penalty adds less and less. That is why greater weapon fighting seems like a bad choice as a feat.
This needs further testing and comparison especially if you have a character with a way to add more precision damage and as mentioned by others things like haste or the combat reflexes are better for 2 handed and would be interesting
to check at which point sneak attacks stack to take over (I am tired to test though).

Let's add improved 2 weapon fighting as well see how it goes.
2nd hit secondary kukri: (h-0.35)(d+s)+tc(h-0.35)d=(h-0.35)(10+3.5)+0.15(h-0.35)*10=(h-0.35)*13.5+(h -0.35)*1.5=15*(h-0.35)

That would set average kukri damage to 72.65h-16.34625 which now needs either graph or check h values. You may also deduct them, derivative find extremality or what is called in English.

Furthermore is interesting that every added attack contributes less for example something we already knew. For example a greater 2 weapon fighting on secondary would contribute 15(h-0.6) which for h=100% would be 6 damage!! (wow)
And for a more realistic hit on first attack of h=75% it would be 2.25 damage.


Sirgoulas wrote:
Won't lete me edit

Just wanted to say that if I go on base attack 11 and check 3 attacks kukri and 2 secondary and I get greater 2 weapon fighting I get like 6 dmg more for h=100% on first primary hit whichis nearly 9% increase and for a h=75% chance to hit I get 2.55 which is nearly 5% dmg increase.

Also if you want to test different precision damage just multiply the 3.5 with a y such as 3.5*y on the initial equations where y is number of precision attacks. That could give a betetr idea where the threshold lies so you can pack the 2h and go for dual wield.


If you are going to include power attack for one you need to include piranha strike for the other. Also, feats matter to all of this. a TWF build would pick up a different set of feats than THF. There are also different considerations that come into play. TWF is a DEX build, since DEX also increases to-HIT(with the proper feat), AC and INIT, it has a different value than STR, which only adds to to-HIT and DMG.

If all you care about is which deals more damage, then you are the right track, but to decide which is a better build, there's more to it.

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