Poison on Bombs, Precise Splash Weapons Ex., Underground Chemist Rogue help...


Rules Questions


The Underground Chemist Rogue archetype gets Precise Splash Weapons Ex.:
At 4th level, an underground chemist can deal sneak attack damage with splash weapons. The attack must be her first attack that round, qualify for dealing sneak attack damage (such as against a flat-footed target), and be directed at a creature rather than a square.

This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 4th level.

Okay, could you add poison to the outside of the bomb, to lower the targets saves against the actual bomb's effects?

Everything I find when I search is talking about Alchemists, not Rogues. I bring up the Precise Splash Weapons ability because it makes you throw the grenade at the person, just as if you poisoned a throwing dagger or a rock. I don't expect the poison to splash with the splash damage, just affect the person hit directly. That seems to be something that came up a lot in my searches.

Examples of what I'm talking about would be Giant Wasp Venom on a bomb with a Reflex save, so the target takes 1D2 Dex damage before they roll their Reflex save, or Drow Poison to paralyze someone so they can't put out alchemist fire.


I am not familiar with a rule citation for this. But I will o#fer my thoughts: the bomb is targetting touch AC, so it has not necessarily penetrated armor or broken the skin, this makes the use of an injury poison problematic. A contact poison maybe? Or an inhaled poison?


Hum. assuming nothing changes..
bombs are listed as a weapon.
Weapons can be poisoned...

If you could poison as a swift action. you could. But it would have to be contact poison I think. because its fire damage it wouldn't work with injury poisons. Unless you made it b/p not fire then it might work.


I'm willing to throw at full AC, not touch, if that's what it would require to count as a weapon, not a bomb.

If I beat their AC, not touch, then I have found a spot in the armor that allows either injury or contact poison to work, right?

The bomb is still a bomb, it goes off if I pass touch AC, regardless.

For the poison to hit first, the poisoned thrown weapon has to beat full AC for contact or injury poison to work before the bomb goes off...

I think.


Given the alchemists class specializing in both bombs and poisons don't have rules that allow it, and in fact have a discovery just for bombs that do poisons...

I'd say all of this is a no go. The poison burns up in the explosion, I guess.

Sovereign Court

Zwordsman wrote:

If you could poison as a swift action. you could. But it would have to be contact poison I think. because its fire damage it wouldn't work with injury poisons. Unless you made it b/p not fire then it might work.

If you can poison as a Swift action, can you poison a normal weapon in the middle of another action, say hitting someone with your dagger?

Bombs don't exist outside the action to produce and attack with them because its a single action.


Firebug wrote:

If you can poison as a Swift action, can you poison a normal weapon in the middle of another action, say hitting someone with your dagger?

Bombs don't exist outside the action to produce and attack with them because its a single action.

Everything here is from memory. I can try to look it all up later, but just remember that this could all be wrong:

A Swift Action is a Free Action that can only be used once per round. Free actions can be used as part of another action.

Regarding Injury Poison, you could get the BONESHARD BOMB discovery.

Having said all that I do seem to remember something about bombs not being compatible with poison. Not sure whether it was just the action economy thing or if they had a specific clause somewhere.


Okay, say you can apply poison as a move action, with something like the Swift Poison Rogue Talent. Which an Underground Chemist Rogue might have... see also: the original post stating Underground Chemist Rogue abilities.

Please forgive me not caring about what Alchemists do with their bombs, it came up in every search, exhaustively. Ask me how I know. The Vivisectionist Alchemist can't even sneak attack with his bombs like the Underground Chemist Rogue can. I don't care about Alchemists right meow.

In either case, I can poison the vial, then make the bomb, who cares?

Not the question. Sorry.

A contact poison would happen in every technical way before the bomb goes off.

If players are penalized for every technical move we make, then we should be able to knick pick the system in the exact same manner.

Poison on outside of grenade hits skin first, poison happens, bombs goes off. That is the order of operations, right?


The catalyst vials for bombs SHOULD be valid targets for a contact poison, but you have to throw them without touching them (which isn't impossible, just something to remember).

If you are going that way, then I'd say you'd be targeting regular AC rather than touch AC.


Doesn't poison use say you can apply poison without risk of poisoning yourself?

Maybe I actually don't know what words mean and I have all of this wrong.


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It's easy to picture coating most of a small bottle with paint, and then throwing it by the neck, which you have left dry. Wear heavy gloves and it becomes even simpler.


Java Man wrote:
It's easy to picture coating most of a small bottle with paint, and then throwing it by the neck, which you have left dry. Wear heavy gloves and it becomes even simpler.

Thank you. I agree completely.


Handling a weapon that's poisoned without the correct class ability gives a 5% chance of being poisoned, despite gloves, how you say you handle it, etc etc etc. That's the rule about using poisoned weapons, which is the rule you're citing to apply poison to bombs, that they're considered weapons and can be poisoned.

Don't know if you have the correct class ability, didn't check. But that's the deal. With it, you have a 0% chance of being poisoned by a bomb you throw thats poisoned, assuming your GM allows it. Without it, theres a 5% chance every time.

Dark Archive

I have a player wanting to do something along these lines.

Was there ever a real concensus?

can you apply an injury poison to an alchemist fire, for example?


An injury poison requires you to do hit point damage before the poison can take effect. If the poison gets burned up by the alchemist's fire this might not work. If you use an alchemical weapon which does less chemically-altering damage (like shard gel which does piercing) you're good, or else contact poison should at least be a better bet.


I don't think this was ever actually answered... but my new favorite way to deliver/abuse poisons is this:

Toxic Spell = Spell + Poison
Infuse Poison = Poison + Spell

If you use an Infused Poison for a Toxic Spell:

Spell + Poison + Spell

If you use a Toxic Spell in an Infused Poison:

Poison + Spell + Poison

If you make an Infused Poison with a Toxic Spell, then use it to cast a different Toxic Spell:

Spell + Poison + Spell + Poison


All things being already said... by the time you read this, you've already read it... if you have the action economy to place a Contact Poison on the Bomb's jar (or whatever) as the Bomb is being made... then yes, Poison comes into Contact before the Bomb does... Saves vs Poison happens before Bomb explodes...


VoodistMonk wrote:

If you make an Infused Poison with a Toxic Spell, then use it to cast a different Toxic Spell:

Spell + Poison + Spell + Poison

Wouldn't the saves here cripple the odds of success?

First the target needs to fail a save vs. the spell (Fort if you're using toxic spell). Unless you have a trait relating to that spell, its DC is one lower than the spell slot used would normally have.

Then they need to fail a save vs. the infused poison to be affected by it.

Then (contingent on failing both the above) they need to fail a save vs. the infused poison's spell to be affected by that. As a toxic spell this is a maximum of a 2nd level spell, and it uses the item save DC (2nd level spell DC 13, 1st 11)

Then (contingent on failing all 3 above saves) they need to fail another poison save.

The probabilities are getting minute at this point. Even if you're stacking penalties it looks hard to achieve.


avr wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:

If you make an Infused Poison with a Toxic Spell, then use it to cast a different Toxic Spell:

Spell + Poison + Spell + Poison

Wouldn't the saves here cripple the odds of success?

First the target needs to fail a save vs. the spell (Fort if you're using toxic spell). Unless you have a trait relating to that spell, its DC is one lower than the spell slot used would normally have.

Then they need to fail a save vs. the infused poison to be affected by it.

Then (contingent on failing both the above) they need to fail a save vs. the infused poison's spell to be affected by that. As a toxic spell this is a maximum of a 2nd level spell, and it uses the item save DC (2nd level spell DC 13, 1st 11)

Then (contingent on failing all 3 above saves) they need to fail another poison save.

The probabilities are getting minute at this point. Even if you're stacking penalties it looks hard to achieve.

For sure, but d@mm!t, it's hilarious!!!

The initial spell needs to quite potent to ensure this all cascades correctly... and both poisons need to be the best you can afford... the second spell is just for fun...

It's still using Poisons, and Poisons are not good/efficient... but it's hilarious if you actually drop 2 spells and two Poisons... 4 Fort saves... on a single traget with a single standard action casting... if the first spell and first Poison both target your ability to successfully make Fort saves, then the second spell and Poison might just happen...

And if all of this is just half of a Mystic Theurge Spell Synthesis spellcasting...


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Mmm. I think that if you want all this to work you want the initial spell to be one which hits saves. Ray of sickening, or pernicious poison perhaps though the latter is a melee touch by default. Working out the odds...

Spoiler:
Say you're a Int 20 witch casting toxic ray of sickness (Fort DC 16), and you have an infused poison of confabulation powder (Fort DC 18) infused with toxic lipstitch (Fort DC 13; woundweal, Fort DC 18), total cost 930 gp. Your target is a CR 5 creature with their median Fort save of +7.
Failing the first save is a 40% chance
Failing the second is a 60% chance due to sickened, cumulative 24%.
Failing the third is a 35% chance, cumulative 8.4%.
Failing the fourth is a 60% again, cumulative 5.04%.

OK, so you softened them up with evil eye (-2) or a demoralize first. The chances become 50%, 70%, 45%, 70% for total 11.025% of failing all the saves. Which still sucks.

OK, as well as the evil eye or shaken your familiar zapped them with ill omen from a wand. The total chance is still only about 43% that it all works, and you're out 930 gp and a wand charge. VM, there's got to be better ways to take out an enemy, fun as this might be if it all works.

Sovereign Court

If you are just looking at the absurdity of nesting effects together, look no further than making a Potion of Heal... Basically, the spell is eligible to be a potion, and once its a potion (that costs more than 100gp) it can be the material component of another version of the potion that does the same thing. So basically, 1d8+5 * However many times you want to repeat the process. An expensive potion, but Alchemical Allocation does exist.


AVR, real math ruins all the fun... now I'm sad... but, thank you for highlighting the overall futile obsurdity of actually pulling it off...

The Exchange

Firebug wrote:
If you are just looking at the absurdity of nesting effects together, look no further than making a Potion of Heal... Basically, the spell is eligible to be a potion, and once its a potion (that costs more than 100gp) it can be the material component of another version of the potion that does the same thing. So basically, 1d8+5 * However many times you want to repeat the process. An expensive potion, but Alchemical Allocation does exist.

I think I'm missing a lot in what you're trying to say here. I think you mean "heal" as in "as good as the spell heal", not as in the actual spell heal.

Your link points to curative distillation. Which can be made into a potion. So I believe your method would be to have the alchemist make a potion of curative distillation, using a 50 gp potion of cure light wounds as a material component? Then use the output potion as the material component for another curative distillation potion? Yeah, I guess that works but man is it expensive.

Math, because I was curious:
If a 4th level alchemist is making it, that's 25*2*4 = 200 gp.
So 200 gp for each 1d8+4 healing.

Formula for doing this X times:
((1d8 +4)*X) + (1d8+1) healing
200*X + 25 gp

To average as much as a minimum CL heal (110 hp), we'd have to do this 12 times. So 2425 gp. 4850 in a market.

That's actually not that bad. It would take 6 potions of CSW to do the same amount of healing, and that would cost 4,500. 8% markup to do it all in one action instead of 6.

The Exchange

Yeah, I know the original thread is almost three years old, but I wanted to put in another plug for my favorite silly way of sneak attacking with bombs.

Rogue 2/Alchemist (vivisectionist) 4

Rogue "bomber" talent gives you back the bombs that the vivisectionist lost. Bomb damage is equal to your sneak attack damage.
You need the 4 alchemist levels to get the "explosive missile" discovery.

It doesn't target touch but you get to do sneak attack and bomb damage. And since you are actually doing the sneak attack with an arrow, you can apply poison to it ahead of time as well.

Or, if you want to focus on the poisons, the eldritch poisoner alchemist archetype is very good as well. Slower sneak attack progression than the vivisectionist, though.


Belafon wrote:

Yeah, I know the original thread is almost three years old, but I wanted to put in another plug for my favorite silly way of sneak attacking with bombs.

Rogue 2/Alchemist (vivisectionist) 4

Rogue "bomber" talent gives you back the bombs that the vivisectionist lost. Bomb damage is equal to your sneak attack damage.
You need the 4 alchemist levels to get the "explosive missile" discovery.

It doesn't target touch but you get to do sneak attack and bomb damage. And since you are actually doing the sneak attack with an arrow, you can apply poison to it ahead of time as well.

Or, if you want to focus on the poisons, the eldritch poisoner alchemist archetype is very good as well. Slower sneak attack progression than the vivisectionist, though.

Scout-Underground Chemist UnRogue 4/

Vivisectionist Alchemist X...

3/4 BAB without skipping a beat,
Full Sneak Attack and Bomb damage,
Dex to damage,
Debilitating Strike,
Sneak Attack on a charge,
+11/+14/+6 base saves @ 20,
6th level extracts @ 20...

It's legit as a Rogue can possibly get...

The Exchange

VoodistMonk wrote:

Scout-Underground Chemist UnRogue 4/

Vivisectionist Alchemist X...

3/4 BAB without skipping a beat,
Full Sneak Attack and Bomb damage,
Dex to damage,
Debilitating Strike,
Sneak Attack on a charge,
+11/+14/+6 base saves @ 20,
6th level extracts @ 20...

It's legit as a Rogue can possibly get...

I'm not sure what you mean by "legit" there.

This is a decent build, but the things you have listed don't all apply at once. You only get Dex to Damage with your chosen finessable weapon, so you wouldn't get to add bomb damage to it. Ditto on the scout ability. You'd need something like the barbarian's Raging Hurler power to throw a bomb while charging instead of making a melee attack. Or 8 levels of rogue for the scout's Skirmisher ability.

Again; decent build with plenty of options depending on what the current battle situation looks like, but not something that really synergizes in a shockingly good manner.


You still get everything your run of mill Scout UnRogue has... Dex to damage, Sneak Attack on a charge, full Sneak Attack progression...

But, now you have better saves, 6th level extracts, something to actually offer the party. Lol.

And, now the Vivisectionist has Dex to damage, Sneak Attack on a charge, and Bombs!!!

It's not that there is an abusable synergy happening with this combination... it is just a way to make a Rogue "better", in my opinion. Lots of options/utility... the ability to take the Infusion Discovery, alone, is better than every Rogue, ever...

Sovereign Court

Belafon wrote:
Firebug wrote:
If you are just looking at the absurdity of nesting effects together, look no further than making a Potion of Heal... Basically, the spell is eligible to be a potion, and once its a potion (that costs more than 100gp) it can be the material component of another version of the potion that does the same thing. So basically, 1d8+5 * However many times you want to repeat the process. An expensive potion, but Alchemical Allocation does exist.

I think I'm missing a lot in what you're trying to say here. I think you mean "heal" as in "as good as the spell heal", not as in the actual spell heal.

Your link points to curative distillation. Which can be made into a potion. So I believe your method would be to have the alchemist make a potion of curative distillation, using a 50 gp potion of cure light wounds as a material component? Then use the output potion as the material component for another curative distillation potion? Yeah, I guess that works but man is it expensive.

Yep, you got it. I probably should have put quotes around 'heal' to make that more clear.

You don't have to start with a Cure Light Wounds potion, you can start with an alchemical remedy (or healing herb, though I don't think any are actually defined) like Alchemist's Kindness if you wanted to save gold (though at that point I don't see why). But Antitoxin/Antiplague/meditation tea/etc are what I would probably go for. Something that gives a bonus for a while. Or a buff spell that you normally only use with Alchemical Allocation anyway, like a high CL heroism/barkskin/etc. In the end, except for the initial start up cost, its the same 2nd level slot but now has multiple uses.


Re: Infused poisons

The best way to use them actually, is for buffing. Take a harmless poison (like Hazemind Concentrate or Pupil's Friend) and make a bunch of infused poisons with a buff spells (like fly, haste, heroism, etc). Since you can explicitly have multiple doses of poison in one item of food, you can add them all to a drink (I recommend using a Fighting Tankard to avoid spillage/loss of the gatorade).

Then when you enter combat, you can simply take a drink to get all of the buffs.


willuwontu wrote:

Re: Infused poisons

The best way to use them actually, is for buffing. Take a harmless poison (like Hazemind Concentrate or Pupil's Friend) and make a bunch of infused poisons with a buff spells (like fly, haste, heroism, etc). Since you can explicitly have multiple doses of poison in one item of food, you can add them all to a drink (I recommend using a Fighting Tankard to avoid spillage/loss of the gatorade).

Then when you enter combat, you can simply take a drink to get all of the buffs.

That is hilarious.

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