Are All Adventure Paths Eventually Collected Into Nice Hardcover Books?


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion


I'm curious because Taldor is the nation that interests me the most and I see the latest path focuses on it.

Will it end up getting a nice hardcover collection book?

Or is there no guarantee?


Not all of them, no. Hardcover collections are pretty rare, and mostly done as special events. I suppose you could always hodge-podge it - I'm pretty sure Paizo's terms allow you to print a copy of your PDFs for personal use, and you could probably get that bound into a personal hardcover - but otherwise, I wouldn't expect too much there.


That's unfortunate.

These little paperback books are too unwieldy to be of much use.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"Too unwieldy"?

I'm surprised at hearing that said about the individual AP instalments.


No. Hardly any are.

As far as I am aware only 2 of the Paizo Adventure Paths have had a hardcover reprint (RotRL and CotCT. At least one of the Dragon/Dungeon magazine ones got one as well).

You might get some sort of hardcover reprint translating one of the more popular of the remaining 20 odd to PF2e but that wont be for at least 2-3 years, given the likely release date of the actual 2nd Edition, and it is far more likely to be one of the older, no longer available in print adventure paths than one that only just came out that they still have stock of.


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Bellona wrote:

"Too unwieldy"?

I'm surprised at hearing that said about the individual AP instalments.

I'm surprised that it's not a more common sentiment.

Having information spread across six different books, with paperback binding that gradually (if not rapidly) decays with each use, seems unwieldy to me.

I have a lot of Pathfinder paperback books and they annoy me every time I look at them. :)


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If you crease the binding along the spine yourself that will increase the lifespan of the AP books considerably.


Come on over to the sunnier side of gaming with PDFs!


World's most interesting Pan wrote:
Come on over to the sunnier side of gaming with PDFs!

LOL

I find reading PDFs hard on the eyes. Plus it makes me think of work. :)

Give me nice hardcover books any day. Wizards 3.5, when basically everything was hardcover (including all the FR books), was the golden age for me.


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captain yesterday wrote:
If you crease the binding along the spine yourself that will increase the lifespan of the AP books considerably.

This is one of those things I was sure was not going to work with the damage on my first few books (I figured people had misunderstood what was happening in my case).

Now it's the first thing I do and when I try and tell people about it, they swear it won't prevent the issue they're seeing.


They don't currently, but for if/when PF2 rolls around it'd be a nice sendoff for regular PF to get the APs in hardback


captain yesterday wrote:
If you crease the binding along the spine yourself that will increase the lifespan of the AP books considerably.

Can you explain a little more what you mean?


World's most interesting Pan wrote:
Come on over to the sunnier side of gaming with PDFs!

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I hate pdf's, can't read extended texts onscreen to start with, and I find that leafing throughn a dead tree book is more comfortable and fast when I need to check something...


With PF 2.0 chances for Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire getting justified rebirth are now much smaller unfortunately.

And especially Second Darkness really deserve good refreshment (Legacy of Fire at worse I suppose can survive on it's own).


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jscott991 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
If you crease the binding along the spine yourself that will increase the lifespan of the AP books considerably.
Can you explain a little more what you mean?

Absolutely!

Along the spine of the front and back covers you'll notice a line where it's supposed to crease, if you hold a ruler or a heavier book along that line of both the front and back covers and fold the cover along the crease they'll last longer.

Works for campaign setting books too!


jscott991 wrote:
I'm surprised that it's not a more common sentiment.

And this is why. If they would later re-publish them in a better format, why would anyone buy them on release?


Rub-Eta wrote:
jscott991 wrote:
I'm surprised that it's not a more common sentiment.
And this is why. If they would later re-publish them in a better format, why would anyone buy them on release?

Presumably to get them immediately rather than waiting the months or years it would take to republish.

Comic books collect issues in paperback anthologies and that doesn't seem to put their monthly individual issues at risk.

To be honest, I assumed Adventure Paths worked the same way. Put out the flimsy six issues for those that can't wait and then collect them into a hardback book for those that did.


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Gamer frugality (we aren't made of money) dictates that the hardcovers remain rare, just as it ensures that PDF only subs will never happen.


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Vic Wertz, Paizo's Chief Technical Officer, on why they don't offer (many) AP compilations:

Vic Wertz wrote:

Things I have said before that are still true:

From 2009:

The number one problem with collected APs is that our cash flow relies on constant sales of the current AP volume, and anything that we do that potentially reduces sales of the current volume is harmful to us. Not only would collecting them train some people to wait for the compilations, but it would also be creating a product that competes with the current AP for the attention of new customers. Either one of those is bad enough; taken together, the whole issue becomes a non-starter.

From 2010:

I mentioned it in the Why We Don't Reprint Thread, but I may as well repeat it here:

"The 'no reprints' rule doesn't apply to everything... and 'reinvention' is also possible. So long as it's done in a way that is as appealing as a completely new product, and doesn't train people to always wait for the reinvention."

So an anniversary edition that updates the out-of-print Rise of the Runelords to PFRPG rules is interesting. The ruleset update satisfies the requirements of reinvention to at least some degree; then, so long as we made it clear that this was a one-time exception, and that waiting for, say, a complete Kingmaker compilation would probably be fruitless, that could satisfy the "not training people to wait" rule.

From 2011, after the announcement of the Runelords compilation:

We have *no* plans to compile additional adventure paths. Keeping up sales (and especially subscriptions) of the Pathfinder Adventure Path line is crucial to our business, and if we were to make a habit of regularly compiling APs, many customers would be tempted to opt out of the ongoing series, choosing instead to wait for the compilations.

That would be, frankly, one of the worst possible things that could happen to Paizo.

I won't say we'll never ever compile another Adventure Path, but I will say it would take very very unusual circumstances for us to consider doing another one, no matter how well this one sells.

From 2013:

Allow me to give you another data point. While we rarely talk about print run sizes or sales numbers, we do, every now and then, do blog posts where we tell you which items are getting low on stock—defined as under 1000 copies—in our warehouse. [I then linked to a recent such blog post, which I won't relink since it's terribly out of date.]

From that, you might deduce the following stock levels for each volume of the AP:

Rise of the Runelords:
Sold out: 1, 3, 5, 6
Between 25 and 100 copies: 4
Between 100 and 250 copies: 2
(Total remaining copies: 125-350)

Crimson Throne:
Between 25 and 100 copies: 2
Between 500 and 1000 copies: 1, 3
More than 1000 copies: 4, 5, 6
(Total remaining copies: 4025-?)

Second Darkness:
More than 1000 copies: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
(Total remaining copies: 6000-?)

Legacy of Fire:
Between 500 and 1000 copies: 4
More than 1000 copies: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6
(Total remaining copies: 5500-?)

It doesn't take a business degree to see Rise of the Runelords is in a class by itself. It made a standout candidate for a compilation; any other AP would require a lot more justification.

Note: "More copies in the warehouse" does not directly correlate to "fewer copies sold", as print runs vary from volume to volume. But it's safe to assume that a compilation of any of these would drastically reduce the rate of sales of the current printings, so these numbers are certainly one of many factors we'd take into consideration if we were looking to compile one of them—which we are currently not.

From 2014:

I would like to be clear that we do try to avoid saying *never*. When we did the Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition, we said that it was a special circumstance—an exception to the rule—but we haven't said that there will definitely never ever be another exception. But it took 5 years to do the first one, and it's been a few years since that came out, and we're not working on one now.

And some additional comments just for today*:

Reprinting APs will continue to be extremely rare. Not never, but rare enough that you shouldn't plan on any given AP ever being compiled. It has been 4 years since the last compilation, and there's no reason to expect the next to come any sooner.

Just as Runelords was when we compiled it, Crimson Throne is now almost sold out in its original form (as of our last low inventory blog in November, the first three volumes were completely sold out, volumes 4 and 5 were under 1000 copies, and volume 6 was under 500), and it benefits from being updated to the current ruleset. While a couple other APs meet one or the other of those, there are no other APs that meet both. Nobody is working on another compilation beyond Curse, and nobody will be working on one anytime soon.

*"Today", in this instance, was 2016.


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Well, that's a very thorough answer.

What a strange business model.

Thanks!


The RPG market is... interesting. XD But again, you can totally make your own hardcover if you want one to use at a table. It's not quite as easy as just buying one, but it is doable.


It's definitely not worth that trouble. Especially since I'm unlikely to enjoy how the adventure modifies Taldor.

I'll just buy the first one for the information on Eutropia and the Empire under Stavian.


As far as pdfs being hard to read, I recommend foxit pdf reader for phones and tablets. It has a reflow feature which pares things so that it is only text with images places between paragraphs. There is some wonkiness, but it works wonders for making PDFs more usable straight off a phone.


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jscott991 wrote:

It's definitely not worth that trouble. Especially since I'm unlikely to enjoy how the adventure modifies Taldor.

I'll just buy the first one for the information on Eutropia and the Empire under Stavian.

The first one is excellent, however I'd also suggest looking at the second one - even if you had no interest in the AP's metaplot. (In fact, I think the second installment works considerably better as a standalone adventure than the first).

It's a sandboxy, "go to this reasonably detailed little slice of Taldor as the agents of a higher up noble and win some political influence". You could easily repurpose it for any Taldor campaign. Granted, I think it will need an experienced DM to pull it off, but it sounds like it might suit you.

This is shaping up to be my favorite AP of all time (pushing CotCT off it's long-occupied pedestal).

If you're looking for information on Taldor more broadly, I think this is a far better place to look, personally. The information in the first AP is really more on Oppara in particular than the empire as a whole.


I have the First Empire book (and Echoes of Glory). It was one of the first orders I made when I returned to Pathfinder (despite it being a flimsy paperback).

It's very interesting, although a lot of information has clearly been held back for the AP (they actually reference the AP several times). There's basically nothing about Eutropia, for example.

It's funny. They've been teasing that Eutropia would take over the Empire and try to restore it since Golarion was created. And now they finally take a look at Taldor in an AP. And it's going to ruin all that (unless I'm reading all the descriptions wrong).

I will take a look at the second one, though, since you recommend it.

Thanks!


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Well, hopefully you like it! I think it’s definitely more useful for someone doing their own Taldor campaign. The first is pretty focussed on the big setup event for the AP.


Klorox wrote:
World's most interesting Pan wrote:
Come on over to the sunnier side of gaming with PDFs!
Sorry to rain on your parade, but I hate pdf's, can't read extended texts onscreen to start with, and I find that leafing throughn a dead tree book is more comfortable and fast when I need to check something...

Search function yo...


jscott991 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
jscott991 wrote:
I'm surprised that it's not a more common sentiment.
And this is why. If they would later re-publish them in a better format, why would anyone buy them on release?

Presumably to get them immediately rather than waiting the months or years it would take to republish.

Comic books collect issues in paperback anthologies and that doesn't seem to put their monthly individual issues at risk.

To be honest, I assumed Adventure Paths worked the same way. Put out the flimsy six issues for those that can't wait and then collect them into a hardback book for those that did.

Comic books don't take 2 years to get through, though.


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jscott991 wrote:
I have the First Empire book (and Echoes of Glory). It was one of the first orders I made when I returned to Pathfinder (despite it being a flimsy paperback).

By the way, I'd definitely follow the "fold along the crease-marks" advice that Captain Yesterday gave above. As he mentioned, it's as true for the campaign setting books as it is for the APs.

It doesn't seem like it will work (and won't save the occasional dud like Gods and Magic) but it provides a kind of brace for the glued section of the spine and they last significantly better.

Quote:
It's funny. They've been teasing that Eutropia would take over the Empire and try to restore it since Golarion was created. And now they finally take a look at Taldor in an AP. And it's going to ruin all that (unless I'm reading all the descriptions wrong).

I think you might be (or I'm misreading you!) As I read it, this is the AP where the PCs help her on the road to doing precisely that.


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jscott991 wrote:

I have the First Empire book (and Echoes of Glory). It was one of the first orders I made when I returned to Pathfinder (despite it being a flimsy paperback).

It's very interesting, although a lot of information has clearly been held back for the AP (they actually reference the AP several times). There's basically nothing about Eutropia, for example.

It's funny. They've been teasing that Eutropia would take over the Empire and try to restore it since Golarion was created. And now they finally take a look at Taldor in an AP. And it's going to ruin all that (unless I'm reading all the descriptions wrong).

I will take a look at the second one, though, since you recommend it.

Thanks!

For more information about Eutropia, check out the War for the Crown Player's Guide


Steve Geddes wrote:
I think you might be (or I'm misreading you!) As I read it, this is the AP where the PCs help her on the road to doing precisely that.

Well, I don't want to spoil anything but the GM's page at the end of Crownfall that lays out all six episodes and the plot summaries available on Amazon and other places have me wondering just how it might happen.

Also, they inserted quite a lot of real world politics that don't make a lot of sense (besides primogeniture for the throne, I'm not sure how Taldor is backwards on gender politics considering many of its prefectures are ruled by females, and a female general commands its cavalry).

Anyway, we'll see what happens in a few months. :)


It's funny - I feel exactly the opposite about the smaller AP volumes - they're much more convenient & easy to use.
Not just the physical size but having much fewer pages to flick through. But most of all, the seprate volumes being written, edited & sold seperately means each one has to make sense in itself, which makes it much easier to just familiarise yourself with the current volume & then run it with no faffing about.

Not saying you're wrong of course but personally I hope they stick to the smaller volumes, or even the 64 - page Starfinder ones - they're much more useful & easy to run for me.


I like the collected omnibuses too, because invariably you end up needing information that's in Book 6 while still in Book 2 (a key NPC's name, their stats, etc), and it's much easier to flip forward than go find a separate book.


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captain yesterday wrote:
jscott991 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
If you crease the binding along the spine yourself that will increase the lifespan of the AP books considerably.
Can you explain a little more what you mean?

Absolutely!

Along the spine of the front and back covers you'll notice a line where it's supposed to crease, if you hold a ruler or a heavier book along that line of both the front and back covers and fold the cover along the crease they'll last longer.

Works for campaign setting books too!

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a go the next time I run an adventure path. In the past I haven't been able to get through one without at least one volume shedding pages.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
If you crease the binding along the spine yourself that will increase the lifespan of the AP books considerably.

This is one of those things I was sure was not going to work with the damage on my first few books (I figured people had misunderstood what was happening in my case).

Now it's the first thing I do and when I try and tell people about it, they swear it won't prevent the issue they're seeing.

Just some feedback... I've always had the same attitude. "Bah, this can't work." Reading that you had that attitude, tried it, and had success, I did some thinking. "You know, Steve's generally a together kind of guy. If he's been as skeptical as I've been, only now claims to have seen the light, maybe, just maybe, I should give this a try."

Guess what? Turns out it works.

So yeah, thanks for not only passing on the recommendation (which was not new to me), but the skepticism needed to push me over the edge.


I have a ton of these softcover books now.

I'm going to test on one that I don't like that much. :)


Be jealous. BBE (the French editor) intends to make them all in hard cover. They're doing nicely until now. They're cute <3


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Anguish wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
If you crease the binding along the spine yourself that will increase the lifespan of the AP books considerably.

This is one of those things I was sure was not going to work with the damage on my first few books (I figured people had misunderstood what was happening in my case).

Now it's the first thing I do and when I try and tell people about it, they swear it won't prevent the issue they're seeing.

Just some feedback... I've always had the same attitude. "Bah, this can't work." Reading that you had that attitude, tried it, and had success, I did some thinking. "You know, Steve's generally a together kind of guy. If he's been as skeptical as I've been, only now claims to have seen the light, maybe, just maybe, I should give this a try."

Guess what? Turns out it works.

So yeah, thanks for not only passing on the recommendation (which was not new to me), but the skepticism needed to push me over the edge.

Truth be told, I was probably only doing it so I could say "A-ha! See it didn't work!" :p

Ended up having to eat humble pie (turns out bookbinders know more about making books than me, who'd have thought?). It's not 100%, but it's definitely better.


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Acid free book binding glue is pretty cheap, since I got it for my Starfinder Core Rulebook I've been going back and touching up some of my more problematic books.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Why does it have to be acid-free? (Total book-repair noob here.)


Lusinian wrote:
Be jealous. BBE (the French editor) intends to make them all in hard cover. They're doing nicely until now. They're cute <3

except of course, BBE is notorious for low quality translations and quite a number of uncorrected typing mistakes, if I believe what I hear (I buy exclusively english stuff, when english is the original language)


Klorox wrote:
except of course, BBE is notorious for low quality translations and quite a number of uncorrected typing mistakes, if I believe what I hear (I buy exclusively english stuff, when english is the original language)

I can't say there are no typing mistakes in what I have. As for low quality translations, I noticed very few articles that seemed weird, and then the original version was ambiguous as well. Though I must say their distance conversions are often wrong.

Truth be told, they do make better translations for rp parts than rules parts, and the hardware (cover, paper, illustration, maquette...) is very well done.


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Bellona wrote:
Why does it have to be acid-free? (Total book-repair noob here.)

Glue with acid in it will disintegrate the paper.

If you glue anything you value, ALWAYS use acid free glue.


captain yesterday wrote:
Acid free book binding glue is pretty cheap, since I got it for my Starfinder Core Rulebook I've been going back and touching up some of my more problematic books.

This is a good tip.


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A little goes a long way! And have some tissue paper ready. :-)

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