|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
After reading the discussion on Sexism in the Games Industry with Jessica Price, I came to the realization that many people have already had: Namely, there are very, very few memorable and compelling female characters in games, at least in terms of compelling playable characters. I find this to be especially true in the case of video games.
We find this all the time in electronic games: Female characters in many games often exist to be (1) rescued by the protagonist, (2) killed off so that the main character (most of the time a male) can enact his revenge upon the killer(s) or (3) in a support role with varying degrees of effectiveness/ineffectiveness.
And when you actually do get to play female character, most of the time they are very poorly characterized such that one cannot relate to them(Lara Croft in most of the Tomb Raider games, Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII), overly sexualized to the point that their sexual nature seems to be the only facet of their personality (Bayonetta, Lara Croft again to a lesser degree, and every fighting game female character ever), OR worst of all they are made to affect the worst aspects of masculine characters (Rubi from "Wet"). There are notable exceptions to this of course, but overall I find that there is a dearth of interesting female characters whose story I would want to explore further.
This is not to say that there aren't problems with poor writing in general when it comes to male characters (Marcus Fenix from Gears of War strikes me as an apt example). However, because there are fewer female protagonists than there are male protagonists in general, and of those, the majority fall into the prior categories, we are generally left with few female game characters that most people would truly relish playing as.
My question is what can be done about changing the paradigm? Does anything need to be changed? Perhaps I am tilting at windmills?
As far as I am concerned, Paizo has done some of the best work when it comes to making compelling female game characters whose stories actually draw you in. So I guess it should also be asked what makes a female character interesting or compelling to both a male and female audience, such that a person would want to play as that character if given the opportunity? What should be focused on? What should be avoided?
|
|
Let's look a few modern games: Skyrim, Fallout (3 and Vegas) and Dragon Age.
There is a real difference in playing them with a male or female character?
In all of them a few NPC reactions change depending on your sex (especially Caesar and his faction in Fallout Vegas) but in a way consistent with their character and mentality. Sp I don't see a problem there.
The NPC with which you interact in those games? They represent a fairly large spectrum of characters, some with a large sexual presence, some where it is practically absent. It is a bit more noticeable in female characters but not by much.
The situation change when you are playing games with a linear script where the story is railroaded with little or no space for different approaches, multiple choices and so on.
In those games the character personality is stronger as there is 1, single personality already hardcoded in the game and generally, to make the game interesting for a large audience of players, it use a few well know stereotypes.
To go beyond those stereotypes you need a) capital to develop a compelling game with good writers; b) the willingness to risk treading new waters. A very rare combination.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mass Effect
MASS EFFECT
They gave us a female space marine that is a space marine first. Femme Shep is my favorite female protagonist in a game because the fact that she is female isn't ignored, but it doesn't define her. Her stupendous bada$$ness defines her.
It's my new bar.
|
|
I speak for the Mass Effect games as well. They have some strong compelling females in that game.
The game plays close to the same depending on gender with the exception of romance. Both genders do have characters that are Straight, Bi, Gay and Lesbian. Depending on your gender depends on which ones you can have a romance with
now one complaint I had with Dragon Age is being a female character you where basically cut off from 1 of the possible choices on how the game ended (3 instead of 4 if memory is correct) This I had a problem with but for some reason I cannot speak what it is now as that was a few years ago.
I will ad literature in many cases especially in good fantasy or Sci-Fi also lacks compelling. This is not always the case and while Paizo does a good job in their stories, they lack something. While I enjoy most of those books they are what I refer to as "Light" reading or "Light" Fantasy.
Then again no female wants to read a John Norman Gor book, all those females are slaves and worthless.
now one complaint I had with Dragon Age is being a female character you where basically cut off from 1 of the possible choices on how the game ended (3 instead of 4 if memory is correct) This I had a problem with but for some reason I cannot speak what it is now as that was a few years ago.
I don't know why you had a problem with it because that particular ending required you to impregnate Morrigan, which if my memory of biology serves, females can't do.
now one complaint I had with Dragon Age is being a female character you where basically cut off from 1 of the possible choices on how the game ended (3 instead of 4 if memory is correct) This I had a problem with but for some reason I cannot speak what it is now as that was a few years ago.I don't know why you had a problem with it because that particular ending required you to impregnate Morrigan, which if my memory of biology serves, females can't do.
The problem there is that the creators chose to create a possible ending that only male characters could participate in, when they could easily have come up with an alternative that wasn't gender-dependent.
The problem there is that the creators chose to create a possible ending that only male characters could participate in, when they could easily have come up with an alternative that wasn't gender-dependent.
It made sense in the lore and was a pretty well written ending. And they did, in fact, come up with an alternative that wasn't gender dependent. 3 or 4 of them, in fact.
Not everything has to be all-inclusive.
|
|
now one complaint I had with Dragon Age is being a female character you where basically cut off from 1 of the possible choices on how the game ended (3 instead of 4 if memory is correct) This I had a problem with but for some reason I cannot speak what it is now as that was a few years ago.I don't know why you had a problem with it because that particular ending required you to impregnate Morrigan, which if my memory of biology serves, females can't do.
Yes that was the one but my feeling is give those of us that played a female a different path that men did not have. Balance it
|
|
Gay and LesbianIsn't that kinda the same thing? I mean gay stands for homosexual, which works for both genders.
As for the rest of your post, i strongly agree, except for the part that Rynjin mentioned.
Technically NO! It IS LGBTQI (Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Transgendered, Queer/Questioning, Inner Sexed (Hermaphrodite)
Some people will say Gay and try to make it all uncompromising but that is wrong. I guess you could say it that would be like saying all men like women. It is refereed to as a Generalization and that is incorrect
now one complaint I had with Dragon Age is being a female character you where basically cut off from 1 of the possible choices on how the game ended (3 instead of 4 if memory is correct) This I had a problem with but for some reason I cannot speak what it is now as that was a few years ago.I don't know why you had a problem with it because that particular ending required you to impregnate Morrigan, which if my memory of biology serves, females can't do.Yes that was the one but my feeling is give those of us that played a female a different path that men did not have. Balance it
There actually was a female-only path--only a woman can marry Alistair and become queen of Ferelden. Also, you can still go the Morrigan route as a woman by coaxing Alistair into doing it. He's not happy about it though.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mary Sue protectionism annoys me. She is so beautiful wonderful blessed and lucky that she always overcomes. Yawn.
Or, this npc cannot be touched or influenced, they are set in stone and you cannot change them meddlesome adventurer.
Slut archetype or evil lustful witch woman is unfortunate to see.
In my games, I try to make the women as believable as the men. With their sexuality and appearance not the most important factor. Some will be asexual, others into sex/showing affection but without it being a big deal or all there is to them.
Put some of the real world into the game, without being a sexist weirdo pig is a code I game by.
One of my favourite characters was an Oriana Jeggare, Chelaxian warmage. Had a few near romances, but was not lucky in love. Powerful, commanding, sometimes feminine (appearance and the arts mattered to her).
One char in a recent game is trying to romance an asexual sorceress (her magic is certainly not sexual or tied to skimpy outfits). That has been a bit different, the quiet npc has been taking it very slow.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sometimes, it seems to me that male writers trying to write female characters spend too much time thinking about so-called female issues or female traits to tie into the character.
It seems to me, and this obviously isn't always true, that if a writer just writes a believable *person,* then they've gone 99% of the way towards writing a believable female (or male) character. Stop thinking about how the characters gender is going to 'inform' anything. If it wouldn't matter when writing a *male* character what he wears, or how he walks, or who he's sleeping with, or whether or not he feels especially protective of children, then it shouldn't be a priority in writing a female character either, unless the writers goal in designing a female character is to show off his possibly anachronistic and muddle-headed personal assumptions about gender-based stereotypes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does no one remember Phantasy Star I for the old Sega Master System? Alis Landale was a strong female heroine who was the leader of her party, wore non-revealing armor, and even in the end-game was not romanced away — she became a queen in her own right, not by marrying a king.
In spite of the fact that I was already 12 by the time it came out (1988), my very first experience with an RPG was not D&D or Zelda, but rather Phantasy Star. I remember thinking, at the time, how cool it was for the story to be focused around a heroine instead of a hero. Up until that point, I'd read Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Conan, etc. but other than the old Red Sonja movie that would sometimes show on TV (which my sister and I loved as little kids), I'd never seen what I perceived to be a strong female protagonist. I thought having a woman for the lead character was awesome.
Now maybe my view of normal gender roles was a bit skewed by the fact that my paternal grand-mother had MS. With her being wheelchair-bound while all the kids were still young (4 boys, 1 girl), all the household tasks that would have typically been considered 'a woman's work' in the 50s/60s had to be accomplished primarily by the 3 oldest boys. Did that cause me to be more accepting? Perhaps. But if a character like Alis Landale was possible 25 years ago, I see no reason why they couldn't today be as well.
On a side note, Alis Landale, left such an impression to me that in college I ended up naming one of my first PCs after her as an homage: Alis Kirmoon, whom I still play as a strong, egalitarian heroine.
EDIT: Incidentally, although I never got to play it, I just remembered that the ending to the first Metroid game was a huge shock at the time because after you finally finished slogging thru all of the enemies, you discovered that the badass you had been playing as (Samus Aran) was a woman. Make of that what you will.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ha ha, yep.
Although female culture and the associated behaviour and thoughts, do exist.
Negation or de-feminisation isn't always the answer, feminine women exist (adhering to the culture they have been socialised into) but you can play the feminine as a light card.
Or it is curiously absent, as in one npc char I've put together. The hard mercenary and ranger Khergita. She isn't that pretty, has done a lot of fighting and hunting of people (evil, but not in the manipulating sense). If she fancies you she will be frank about it (puts on the beard of frank), and if a pc goes along with it, she will f*** them like a man. Lol.
All types out there.
I also throw homosexuals into my games, and avoid stereotyping. A hetero dandy may be more feminine than a homosexual.
Whewww, is good to be able to talk about this here.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Negation or de-feminisation isn't always the answer, feminine women exist (adhering to the culture they have been socialised into) but you can play the feminine as a light card.
It's timely that you should mention that. Just last week I had seen a piece of artwork on Deviant Art where the artist was bemoaning that their favorite character from a show was getting changed in a way they deemed unfavorable to her standing as a strong role-model for little girls.
The comments were largely very well-thought and mature on both sides, and I mention it here because I feel the social aspect of it is relevant to both this thread and the prior one. My commentary was as follows, and I'm copy/pasting it here because I feel it's pertinent to what I quoted above.
I really hate how the term 'princess' has become synonymous with a whinny, prissy brat or an end-game prize for a hero. If MLP are trying to "take 'princess' back", then I commend them for it. I would much rather the term 'princess' be associated with a female protagonist possessed of a noble *soul*.
IMO, the final step in gender equality is for women to be respected and valued for what makes them unique, not for dismissing feminine traits in an attempt to emulate men. Past generations of feminists may have felt compelled to do this to prove to society that women are just as capable as men, but [in a way] I think the danger in that is that it tends to emphasize male traits as being more desirable than feminine traits. Yet diversity is so much more than that — it's about acknowledging mutual strength in individual differences.
So to that I would say that if a 'prince' can be a charming, heroic, symbol of bravery, then a 'princess' certainly deserves to be represented in just as empowering of a role.
Heck, when I think of the Princess from my *own* stories [link], I don't see some helpless, bratty plaything but a young woman who is coming to terms with the responsibilities of someone who was born to lead others and inspire a nation. While she may be well-trained in self-defense and spellcraft, it is her force of personality and conviction that sets her apart, not her beauty or ability to knock the most heads together. I guess you might say she's my own attempt to take the word 'princess' back and prove that not every hero needs to be the one who can inflict the most violence. (Building peace is a far greater challenge than waging war.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sociologist, so yeah, I'm all over this whether I like it or not. :P
Ah the helpless princess. How will we escape this? I alas dislike Ameiko taken in the Mary Sue, and eventually princess direction.
Good point on male traits and desirability.
Peace over war is to believe in nurturing and good will for all over warrior masculinity. Masculinists find the former offensive and the latter natural and god's will if religious radicals.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Does no one remember Phantasy Star I for the old Sega Master System? Alis Landale was a strong female heroine who was the leader of her party, wore non-revealing armor, and even in the end-game was not romanced away — she became a queen in her own right, not by marrying a king.
<snip>
On a side note, Alis Landale, left such an impression to me that in college I ended up naming one of my first PCs after her as an homage: Alis Kirmoon, whom I still play as a strong, egalitarian heroine.
Ah! And here I thought that I, having been out of the video game scene for the last 15 years, would have nothing to contribute to this discussion.
Back in the days of the Super Nintendo, one of my favorite SNES RPGs was Chrono Trigger by Squaresoft. The most important character, second to the title character of course, was Lucca, the magic-engineer, who wasn't sexualized at all. Ayla, from the stone age, was pretty in her way, but she was as strong as they come, and I don't recall any sort of romance involving her. And then there was the robot Robo, with no gender at all.
The game left such an impression on me that years later, I discovered Eberron just because it gave me warm, fuzzy memories of those Squaresoft games. I created an artificer PC named Lucca, a halfling barbarian from the Talenta Plains named Ayla, and a Warforged named Robo.
As for the OP's question "what makes a female character interesting or compelling to both a male and female audience, such that a person would want to play as that character if given the opportunity", the answer is the same things that would make a MALE character interesting or compelling. And the possibilities of THOSE are endless.
Ayla, from the stone age, was pretty in her way, but she was as strong as they come, and I don't recall any sort of romance involving her.
The ending cutscene in the PS remake has her grab Kino - her right-hand man - by the arm, shove a stone ring on his finger, shove another in his hand, then hold out her own hand like "Well, what're you waiting for? Gimme the ring already, genius." Which frankly is 100% Ayla, she is the chieftain after all, she's used to calling the shots.
There actually was a female-only path--only a woman can marry Alistair and become queen of Ferelden. Also, you can still go the Morrigan route as a woman by coaxing Alistair into doing it. He's not happy about it though.now one complaint I had with Dragon Age is being a female character you where basically cut off from 1 of the possible choices on how the game ended (3 instead of 4 if memory is correct) This I had a problem with but for some reason I cannot speak what it is now as that was a few years ago.I don't know why you had a problem with it because that particular ending required you to impregnate Morrigan, which if my memory of biology serves, females can't do.Yes that was the one but my feeling is give those of us that played a female a different path that men did not have. Balance it
There's also an option for you to marry Anora and become king that way - it requires you don't kill Loghain, exile Alistair, and get Morrigan pregnant. It's worth noting that the 'queen' option is only for cahracters starting as a female human noble, and I think 'marry Anora' may be only for a male human noble.
There's only a couple of RPGs I can think of with a lone female character on the front without a male one. One is Macho Women with Guns. The other is 1st edition Exalted.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hopefully, this thread will be followed by the "Development of Compelling Male Characters in Games".
As far as I'm concerned, a shallow Macho Woman with Guns isn't worst than a shallow Macho Man with Guns, and a pretty face with big boobs and an insanely slender waist is no better than a bad-ass face with sculpted abs and humongous biceps... Men are objectified for different reasons and with different means, but this is not less damageable for society IMO.
All are idealised models, and while this shouldn't stop the cause of feminism, I long for a broader, more inclusive cause.
That being said, I'm glad that these outcries of sexism against females are being heard (well, by some anyways). I'm hopeful that more women in the industry both as consumers and designers/producers will slowly change these abuse in its content.
I'm also hopeful that the (relatively) new acceptance of women modern "adventurers" as business women, doctors, journalists, autonomous workers etc, will prompt an acceptance and interest for female adventurers in fantasy worlds. Our society in only just getting ripe for this; it need time and I do believe we're getteing there just now. We are still living with the ghosts of the 20th century, but the fact that we're discussing this with a different approach than 20 years ago fills me with hope.
My generation has a lot to change, if only in how I raise my kids for a fairer 21st century. Sexism is only one of the so many inequalities we need to face, but its a battle we'll have to fight on many fronts. Its quite baffling actually; I hope I'll be able to raise my daughter with the feeling that she can feel and be feminine without denying the femininity of those who are different, and that while there nothing wrong with being the princess, there's also nothing wrong with not being the princess. I hope I'll manage to raise my boys knowing that one can enjoy cooking classes AND watch football with the boys (or Hockey here; I'm Canadian eh), and that they can be heroes without huge biceps and a six-pack of death.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I guess it should also be asked what makes a female character interesting or compelling to both a male and female audience, such that a person would want to play as that character if given the opportunity? What should be focused on? What should be avoided?
As has been advised in other, similar threads: focus on writing a good character, a good HUMAN BEING first. Then think of her as a woman. While it's absolutely certain being a woman affects the character somehow, if you focus on writing a good, three dimensional character period, the rest should work itself out.
For an NPC, such as a character in a video game, they also need to exist for a reason other than to make the (often presumed male) PC feel good about themselves. Often (please note "often" is a different word from "always"; I know there are exceptions), especially when a female NPC in a video is designed to be a love interest, she seems to lose all other personality, drive, ambition, or purpose for being once you set off on a romance. (Which for me personally is a turnoff. I fell in love with you because you were a badass amazon who took no guff and now you won't stop mooning over me and suddenly are a needy whiner who needs rescuing all the time. Yuck!) It is FINE for a female (or male) character to be a romance, but they need to continue to have other character development as well. They need to have their own goals and motivations.
I'd also prefer party companions in general to be less reliant on the PC to "save" them, whether male or female. One of my favorite RPGs, Fallout: New Vegas, despite its generally awesome character development, makes you integral on the other character's personal decisions about the direction in their life, and how reliant upon you many of them become to basically decide their life's path for them actually really bothers me. It's one thing for them to say, "Hey, I've seen you help people and you've inspired me to help people too," which is cool, but "hey, could you tell me whether I should be a mechanic or a pistoleer, because I can't think for myself apparently even though I'm 200 years old" is kind of annoying (example character there is a male, fwiw). I don't mind the occasional rescue, or "help me find plot item A" or whatever, but I actually don't want to be so much the center of the universe I feel like my companions are waiting for my permission to pee. I want to be part of a living breathing universe indeed where everyone feels real and thus have their own motivations and missions.
This is tangenting into video game NPC design in general but it is relevant because if there is going to be a character utterly hanging on your every word and waiting for you to say jump before they jump, it will 80-90% likely be female, and that makes it even more annoying.
Also having female love interests bicker over you is really awful. Baldur's Gate was bad for that. Alpha Protocol was bad for that, and mostly fails the Bechdel test for it (the only time two female characters talk to each other, the one is clearly jealous of the other because she likes the main character and they snipe at each other basically over him, even if ostensibly to give the main character orders during a mission).
Back to female NPC design, I'd say the only other thing is be reasonable with the character appearance. I don't care if there's a little T&A.... I enjoy it, in fact. But if it makes sense. One of my very favorite CRPG NPCs drives me crazy appearance wise... Annah, from Planescape Torment. She's this awesome sassy no-nonsense thief who DOES live her life despite her love for you (but her love for you is lovely), and then she has boobs twice the size of her head and everytime I look at her outfit, I just think HOW IN THE HECK DOES SHE PEE???? If a woman looks downright inhuman because of her proportions (and I don't mean tail size) or obviously her appearance does not match her origins (how the hell is what Morrigan in Dragon Age would wear as a resident of a swamp?) then it's really annoying. For an example of good fanservice, I'd say the aforementioned Alpha Protocol comes to mind (where they failed in character development... they oddly made up for here). All the female characters are attractive, but fit their role and don't look ridiculous. Even the most outrageous looking of the women, SIE, is pretty reasonable (even with the pink thong).
To tabletop RPG design, I'd look to what makes a good character when writing a script or book, as well as whatever from above can be applied.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I dunno, I'm a girl and I am enjoying that npc-bickering into the story for the solo gestalt game Mr. Nepherti runs for me. Basically my character married a prince who slept around a lot. A few of those women sent assassins after Nepherti when she was competing in a long distance horse-race in the hopes Prince Alexei would seek comfort in their arms after losing his wife in an already high-lethality race. I also play a paladin (for our other game with a few friends) who has a damsel he rescues frequently from dragons.
Maybe I'm just weird.
There's only a couple of RPGs I can think of with a lone female character on the front without a male one. One is Macho Women with Guns. The other is 1st edition Exalted.
Mass Effect 3 actually had two separate covers on release, one with Male!Shep and one with Fem!Shep. Either that or it was two sides to the same cover.
Anyway, I think it counts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is probably verging the discussion into a different direction, but I was looking for a image on the Internet for a female ranger-type character that I could use as a character portrait for an NPC. The character was supposed to be middle-aged, altough I figured that might be hard to find.
Let's just say that I found a lot of images of female warrior types, but the vast majority of them seemed to be wearing not nearly enough armor... or anything at all for that matter.
Now, as a hetero man, I have no qualms with a little fanservice now and again, but all I wanted was an image of a female warrior, wearing armor that would actually protect her-- not a chaninmail bikini.
|
|
This is probably verging the discussion into a different direction, but I was looking for a image on the Internet for a female ranger-type character that I could use as a character portrait for an NPC. The character was supposed to be middle-aged, altough I figured that might be hard to find.
Let's just say that I found a lot of images of female warrior types, but the vast majority of them seemed to be wearing not nearly enough armor... or anything at all for that matter.
Now, as a hetero man, I have no qualms with a little fanservice now and again, but all I wanted was an image of a female warrior, wearing armor that would actually protect her-- not a chaninmail bikini.
Indeed. The ridiculous "useless female armor" trope does keep popping up. The overt poorly-armored fanservice seems to have been avoided somewhat in Pathfinder Artwork, except in the case of Seoni and Alahazra. But then, they are characters who could and would use spells and magic items to armor themselves
Another thing, where are the average-looking girls? I am not trying to be offensive here, but we have grizzled and downright ugly male game characters and protagonists in electronic games and pen-and-paper RPGs, but very, very few homely women. I mean, the majority of female characters are made to look like they could be models and movie starlets, even in Pathfinder. Heck, the only unattractive female iconic character that I have seen in Pathfinder (depending on the artist) is Imrijka the Inquisitor. And even she has her moments in the right light.
When can we have some Brienne-of-Tarth-style heroines who are likeable, sympathetic, self-reliant, without having to conform to (if not exceed) the typical standards of beauty like 99% of other female game characters? Come on, just a few.
Haladir: There's an old thread here in Gamer Talk entitled "Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor". It contains lots of links to [generally] good artwork. Since then, I've been keeping a growing list of URLs I could contribute if it ever resurfaced. After looking thru the 20 or so in that list I found a handful that might work for a wilderness-themed female adventurer.
You might still want to peruse that thread to see if you can find what you need, but hopefully these will help a bit...
.
.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Devils advocate level 2: We must be playing a different game because very few of the female characters in pathfinder are supermodel quality IMHO.
Devils advocate level 3: Even women's fantasys often include looking better than they do.
Devils advocate level 4: This is how paizo teaches us that the charisma stat has nothing to do with the illustrated representation of visual hotness but is instead about your 'presence' Its a subtle lesson but an important one.
Devils advocate level 5: Obviously if you didnt learn the lesson from devils advocate level 4 it means you're so shallow that you cant see the inner beauty of all of these incredible powerful resourceful paizo female characters because you're too hung up on their model level cleavages and scant fashion sense. Shame on you, naughty faun!
Bonus round! Devils advocate snarky edition: No you're right. Nothing I've been looking forward to playing longer than 'Ma Fratelli' from Goonies.
I know I'm a bit of a pig for pointing this out but I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist with the system's predecessor 3.5. If you think about the attractiveness spectrum and what's supposed to be the iconic imagery of beauty in a fantasy setting the first thing that comes to mind is typically nymph (or succubus if you lean that way)... As a genetically scandinavian person I also gravitate to the button nosed nordic look so I also think 'Freyja'... Then I look up nymph and Freyja in 3.5 and its hard not to laugh.
Not only is the 3.5's illustration of 'blinding beauty' not match my own, but it kinda made me wish I were blind. And the freyja illustration was disturbingly similar. I couldnt help but think that one of three things happened. Either the artist for nymph and freyja for 3.5 was a guy and when he came home he told his wife that he'd been commissioned to created some iconic image of beauty for the 3.5 books and his 'Jaime Lee Curtis on meth' wife said 'oh that'll be easy. Let me just pose for you and you'll be done in no time.' Either that or the artist was female and decided the best way to illustrate iconic beauty was to do self portraits... or irregardless of the artists gender they thought the best way to get their work accepted was to make the iconic image of beauty in the likeness of the woman or wife of the woman who was paying for the artwork (pandering to the payer).
Even if none of those were true, and even if beauty really is subjective, I couldnt shake the feeling that the illustrations for nymph and Freyja in 3.5 somehow got botched. I wont say it was 'giant space hamsters spelljammer botched' (the shark-jumping last straw that caused me to stop playing ad&d back in the day) but I think there should always be a mind in the artist of whether they're shooting for inner beauty, outer beauty, or both and I don't think 3.5 nymph accomplished either. Even if 3.5 nymph wasn't 'hot' she still didnt have the eyes 'the soul?' that I felt I could be enchanted by....
Even if you think that opinion is bad, its was still enough to be addressed by the folks who are developing DND Next. There was an illustration/poll in the DND Next forums that showed one version of nymph that was nearly human super attractive and a second illustration where the nymph was very 'feral element of nature' and the question was posed 'which one more appropriately fits your image of what a nymph should be'... So even if my answer to the question is biased, it's still a legitimate question...
All of that aside I think if pathfinder does anything truly well it's create a balanced gamut of good lookin peeps and bad lookin peeps in all corners of the gender arena and anyone who says differently ought to have another flip through the books because I had no trouble finding them. And most of them are 'compelling'. Despite how players play the game paizo does a good job of making the character development 'believable'.
OT: Speaking of iconics and artwork, I was amused today to see that an artist in France took the Seoni cosplay I made for adult model Jenny Poussin, and did an illustration of her cosplay. It was sort of a "fictional starship is named after a real aircraft carrier that's named after a fictional starship" moment for me.
NOTE: While the images I have linked to are as Safe-For-Work as any of the Seoni illustrations from Paizo, some of the other content on the illustrator's DA site are not. Sorcerer Jenny
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Devils advocate level 1: Sex sells.
But no one here said no one should look sexy. So you're making a devil's advocate argument to an argument that doesn't exist.
Also, sex does not have to equal painful looking clothing where it looks like the girl can't even pee.
Sexy can in fact be someone wearing a perfectly reasonable outfit, if it's drawn right.
Devils advocate level 2: We must be playing a different game because very few of the female characters in pathfinder are supermodel quality IMHO.
All of the female characters in Pathfinder are supermodel quality, with the possible exception of some of the non-human/non-elves/non-half-elves. A large number of them are fit, curvy, with wasp waists, and decent sized if proportional chests. Even Imrijka rocks the cleavage ('course, I think Imrijka's the hottest of them, but anyway). They could do well to have a modeling contract in this world. Seoni and Feiya are probably the most likely targets, but I can't think of a single iconic that looks anywhere close at all to "average." Same goes for the (relatively few) female NPCs I've seen drawn in books, modules, APs. (By relatively few I mean I don't have a lot of modules and APs, not that there are few females.)
But I didn't see anyone complaining about Paizo's artwork, for the record, so I'm not sure why you brought it up (I did see some complaints that in general that it can be hard to find pictures of women in sensible armor and such but links were already provided to help with that). If I missed about, by all means please point it out. I think Paizo's artwork is lovely, for the most part. I do think there were some people saying they'd like to see more diverse artwork depicting women in fantasy games in general, so it would be easier to find artwork that represents a much wider variety of character concepts. A wide variety of character concepts is a good thing.
Devils advocate level 3: Even women's fantasys often include looking better than they do.
Because society pressures them into that. Doesn't mean having diversity in appearance in artwork is wrong.
Also, so do men's fantasies. But for some reason we see a lot more diversity of male body types in fantasy artwork than female body types. Why is that, do you think? Sex sells isn't the right answer because presumably there are men and women who want to see images of sexy men who are potential customers, and even men who don't find such images sexy might want to see such characters as role models, perhaps.
Devils advocate level 4: This is how paizo teaches us that the charisma stat has nothing to do with the illustrated representation of visual hotness but is instead about your 'presence' Its a subtle lesson but an important one.
I don't see what this has to do with the rest of the conversation, and while the art directors can speak up for themselves, I doubt "do not reflect the Charisma stat" is amongst there directives to the artists they hire.
That said, of course Charisma doesn't equal Appearance. But that's a whole other conversation. There are other threads on it on this board if you want to look them up. This thread is on female character development (and not in fact on just appearance development, for the record).
Devils advocate level 5: Obviously if you didnt learn the lesson from devils advocate level 4 it means you're so shallow that you cant see the inner beauty of all of these incredible powerful resourceful paizo female characters because you're too hung up on their model level cleavages and scant fashion sense. Shame on you, naughty faun!
This comment would note you actually believe Paizo's artwork depicts supermodel quality characters, and thus above that you were lying.
Also as I don't really think it's kind to call other posters shallow when trying to discuss a rather complex issue. (Who is this "you" you're attacking anyway? Direct quotes, please.)
Bonus round! Devils advocate snarky edition: No you're right. Nothing I've been looking forward to playing longer than 'Ma Fratelli' from Goonies.
Holy crap, that would be so much fun! What a great idea!
And a tangent, but I wanted to say... ah, and the actress who played her may not have been a beauty, but she was a wonderful performer. Her name was Anne Ramsey and she died at the age of 58 of cancer, just a few months after she got the Academy Award for her performance in Throw Momma from the Train. I hope she is remembered fondly.
I always thought she was super cool and despite her goonies character she was also rumored to be very kind and pleasant and fun in real life.
None of the devils advocates have to be taken necessarily together or separate, and the fact that I start my sentence with an IF is indicative that it's not accusatory or directed at anyone in particular. In this case if you do believe that pathfinder is a parade of supersexy supermodels then you're focusing too much on their looks or the looks of the ones that offend you and not on the the one's that arent so hot...
I'd name names but I wouldnt want to hurt their feelings. Personally find at least 3 of the female iconics off the top of my head to not be 'hot', but thats not why I like them. I believe paizo does a good job fleshing them out and the fact that they're not supermodels isnt really an issue with me. Seems funny that we'd marginalize the one's that are for being hot falls into the neighborhood of being jealous of a cartoon character, no matter if they're written well or not and seems kinda silly, but more importantly I think they are written well and I think paizo does try hard enough to make sure that's true.
I know the thread isnt just about physical appearance but 33 percent of the posters have said something to the effect of 'too much sexualization' and I'm just trying to say theres far more ugly in these published materials than there is pretty and it's just as true of the iconics as it is of every other piece of artwork in there. I call it 'balanced' when in reality the ugly to pretty ratio is probably closer to 9:1 IMHO.
Since its not all about looks the question is are the females well written and to that I say paizo does at least as well (9:1) on making sure the characters are as fleshed out and colorful on the inside as they are 'flesh-out' in the bright sunshine. I can't speak for the comics since i've never seen them. I can imagine if it follows the witch and sorcerer around why people would think paizo's "hot or not" scales are out of balance, but in the published game materials I don't think cracking open any given book is going to land you on a page with a character that belongs in a fashion magazine. The hotties are the exception, not the rule, and they're written as thoroughly as the others. Very VERY few of them are are written as mindless hollow vapid 'tarts'.
I'd argue that they're so rare that asking paizo to 'tone it down' would be akin to saying 'I don't want any good looking characters in my books please' and I'd personally hope they wouldnt follow that suggestion.
This is probably verging the discussion into a different direction, but I was looking for a image on the Internet for a female ranger-type character that I could use as a character portrait for an NPC. The character was supposed to be middle-aged, altough I figured that might be hard to find.
Let's just say that I found a lot of images of female warrior types, but the vast majority of them seemed to be wearing not nearly enough armor... or anything at all for that matter.
Now, as a hetero man, I have no qualms with a little fanservice now and again, but all I wanted was an image of a female warrior, wearing armor that would actually protect her-- not a chaninmail bikini.
Indeed. The ridiculous "useless female armor" trope does keep popping up. The overt poorly-armored fanservice seems to have been avoided somewhat in Pathfinder Artwork, except in the case of Seoni and Alahazra. But then, they are characters who could and would use spells and magic items to armor themselves
Another thing, where are the average-looking girls? I am not trying to be offensive here, but we have grizzled and downright ugly male game characters and protagonists in electronic games and pen-and-paper RPGs, but very, very few homely women. I mean, the majority of female characters are made to look like they could be models and movie starlets, even in Pathfinder. Heck, the only unattractive female iconic character that I have seen in Pathfinder (depending on the artist) is Imrijka the Inquisitor. And even she has her moments in the right light.
When can we have some Brienne-of-Tarth-style heroines who are likeable, sympathetic, self-reliant, without having to conform to (if not exceed) the typical standards of beauty like 99% of other female game characters? Come on, just a few.
Something I insist on doing as a dm, is throw in the average looking women. Not everyone looks or acts like a goddess of sex, some people are just plain. They might be fine with that, or cut up about it, but not everyone is beautiful, like Khergita the rough evil ranger.
Same with the guys, not everyone is a stud-muffin or Hercules plus a fashion model. Most adventurers will look average or muscular but for those that have spent their lives learning how to kill, looking pretty is not a concern. More Bronn, less models.
On Brienne, she is one of my favourite characters, but I really disliked how Martin presented her in one of the books. Get inside her head and she is all fear and anxiety. Oh come on, one of the best fighters out there, she should have been mentally calm and in control or she would be useless at fighting. This isn't a mistake Japanese writers make for their heroes, where self-control is considered essential to the art of war.
It's a common trope here in the West, however, that "He who is without fear is a fool" and "Bravery is not being without fear, it is being afraid and overcoming it".
She is fearful and anxious, yes, but when it's time to get down to business she can get down with the best of them.
Heck, the only unattractive female iconic character that I have seen in Pathfinder (depending on the artist) is Imrijka the Inquisitor.
My only response to you calling Imrijka "unattractive" is to say, "You shut your non-gender-specific-prostitute mouth!". She's badass.
;)
I honestly did not realize until now that the iconic Inquisitor was a female half-orc. Always looked like a male Dhampir to me. Picture was too small (or I was too blind) to see the boobs 'til I looked it up here a second ago.
Heck, the only unattractive female iconic character that I have seen in Pathfinder (depending on the artist) is Imrijka the Inquisitor.My only response to you calling Imrijka "unattractive" is to say, "You shut your non-gender-specific-prostitute mouth!". She's badass.
;)
I will say again, she to my personal tastes the hottest of all of them. The green skin is weird given I am a human where we're currently the only sapient species, but I could get used to it. And build-wise, awww yeah.
Which again is also why diversity in appearance is a good thing. If indeed "sex sells" then best to appeal to a wide variety of tastes. I just wish the human and close-to-human-shape women showed that variance more often in artwork.
But I am helping derail, so let's get back to the subject: how to have good female character development.
What are good examples of characters in games? What are poor ones? Have things gotten generally better in the last 10 years?
Ponder these things while I go get my breakfast and complain to the landlord that the heat hasn't been on in 12 hours.
I honestly did not realize until now that the iconic Inquisitor was a female half-orc. Always looked like a male Dhampir to me. Picture was too small (or I was too blind) to see the boobs 'til I looked it up here a second ago.
Wow, the first thing I noticed was the boobs.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mass Effect
MASS EFFECT
They gave us a female space marine that is a space marine first. Femme Shep is my favorite female protagonist in a game because the fact that she is female isn't ignored, but it doesn't define her. Her stupendous bada$$ness defines her.
It's my new bar.
I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite post in this thread.
As for how to write good female characters? Write good characters.
This. My favorite video game characters have been characters first. The gender was a user selection at the beginning of the game, and that's about it. I will never forget how it felt in KotOR to find out I was Revan. It was an obvious setup, but I had mentally blocked off that path because my character was female. Thankfully, Bioware hadn't done so. It was a crazy memorable gaming experience, shocking and ecstatic.
Romance options are a bit trickier. It's nice to offer variety, but there are limits. Dragon Age tended to offer abundant sex rather than real romance, and their characters were flat and boring. NWN2 was almost offensive in its male NPC's arguments over the female PC's affections - none of which was invited or even welcome. I'm not sure if the male characters endured that. And don't even start on Atton on KotOR 2. I wouldn't have taken him off the mining station at the beginning. Don't give us frightening sicko stalkers. If you can't write romance, leave it out.
Paizo has had some nice female antagonists but the ones I remember most (Queen Ileosa, Chammady Drovenge) were influenced by nefarious forces beyond their control. I haven't read all the APs yet, but it would be nice to have a female who was just plain power hungry and scheming.
There was a point to this when I started, but it's now 3 a.m. and flurble mockerie quornda.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite post in this thread.Mass Effect
MASS EFFECT
They gave us a female space marine that is a space marine first. Femme Shep is my favorite female protagonist in a game because the fact that she is female isn't ignored, but it doesn't define her. Her stupendous bada$$ness defines her.
It's my new bar.
[i]Alternate universe Shepard reporting to confirm this opinion.
The multiverse is full of awesome Commander Shepards, it seems, that share a similar opinion.
It just occurred to me that I've been playing a game has (IMO) a lot of powerful and compelling female characters. Perhaps it didn't occur to me earlier because it's a first-person shooter (and therefore can't see my Siren most of the time) but what about Borderlands and Borderlands 2?
By my estimation, we've got a really broad sampling across the whole gamut of genders and orientations represented, each with their own strengths and failings . While I could list a number of characters who fall into the QUILTBAG spectrum, given the focus of this thread, I'm going to stick to giving the impression left upon me by the female characters. Given that the person I've logged the most hours on this game with is my female best friend and I know what she thinks, I would be curious to see what some of the female gamers from this community think too.
Here goes...
- Lilith: Powerful and confident, a smartass who doesn't take crap but still has a good sense of humor.
- Moxxi: Purposefully in-your-face sexy? Yes. However, even if she doesn't run around brandishing weapons, she definitely knows what she wants and how to get it. Any man foolish enough to underestimate her is liable to end up becoming an unwitting ally at best or a pawn at worst. IMO she's a good example of a character with a lot of political clout who never needs to resort to inflicting violence — even if she does capitalize on the fact that violence and sex both sell.
- Commandant Steele: The leader of a private army and your main antagonist thru much of BL1. While I was pissed at how she got killed (I wanted a showdown against her), it served to illustrate how badass the final boss was — her death could not have served that purpose if she was a hapless weakling.
- Athena: Older, badass assassin, former head of her own elite strikeforce. The fact that she looks and acts a LOT like my friend was equal parts eerie and awesome.
- Maya: A powerful and egalitarian woman who actually takes down 'the Patriarchy' on her homeworld. She seems much more mature and intelligent to me than her
- Lilith: As above, yet now that we have Maya to contrast her against, we also begin to see how she can be immature and self-serving at times even as she is saving her boyfriend, saving cities, and working behind the scenes to confuse the bandit population. While she does eventually get captured, it's thru no weakness of her own and her opinion is very much that it would be better to be dead than a damsel.
- Gaige: Geek and mad scientist all in one. Seems more like a cool kid-sister than a potential sex object.
- Tiny Tiny: See Gaige. Also, she seems quite happy being a girl and it's alluded to that she's actually saved Roland more than a few times.
- Axton's Wife: Although he only hear her in his backstory, she's high-ranking military brass and puts him out in the cold, leaving him pining.
- The Sheriff: IMO one of the most cold-blooded badasses in BL2.
- Angel: Even though she's largely helpless, she spends the whole story trying to help the vault hunters take down Pandora's Patriarchy.
Thoughts?
|
|
Heck, the only unattractive female iconic character that I have seen in Pathfinder (depending on the artist) is Imrijka the Inquisitor.My only response to you calling Imrijka "unattractive" is to say, "You shut your non-gender-specific-prostitute mouth!". She's badass.
;)
All I'm saying is that two inch-long tusks and a severe underbite kind of put a damper on my libido.
But hey, I'm not saying that she is a bad character by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I would like to get to know more about her character than most of the other iconics, male or female.