A while ago, I found myself in a questionable situation. It might be a bad example, but still up for debate as much as the whole principle.
The situation was as follows;
A (fey) create that we were fighting decided to spellcast, wich we promtly identified as "sleep". This is a spell that costs a round to cast, so it was still being cast after his turn was over. Now, this happened some time back, so I can't remember if this fey had spend a move action before it started casting or not, but for the sake of argument, let's say it didn't.
Since the spell wouldn't active until it was the fey's turn, and my party got quite scared because we were in shallow water and not in a position to move away from each other that much, on my turn, I asked if I could try to counterspell it. We had already identified the spell; it was still being cast and I also had the spell on my list.
Unfortunatly, the GM ruled I could not because it would also take me a round to cast it; if I had wanted to counterspell it, I should have readied an action according to the rules.
Now, what's not up for debate is this situation; my GM ruled no, and that's that.
But what I'm wondering is the rules around counterspelling a spell that's already being cast. For example, What if it's a full round spell, and the caster has already spend a move action, deciding to cast over the course of his next turn... Would it be possible to counterspell without readying an action, simply by casting the same spell on your own full round? -assuming you identified the spell.
Runehacking wrote: A while ago, I found myself in a questionable situation. It might be a bad example, but still up for debate as much as the whole principle.
The situation was as follows;
A (fey) create that we were fighting decided to spellcast, wich we promtly identified as "sleep". This is a spell that costs a round to cast, so it was still being cast after his turn was over. Now, this happened some time back, so I can't remember if this fey had spend a move action before it started casting or not, but for the sake of argument, let's say it didn't.
Since the spell wouldn't active until it was the fey's turn, and my party got quite scared because we were in shallow water and not in a position to move away from each other that much, on my turn, I asked if I could try to counterspell it. We had already identified the spell; it was still being cast and I also had the spell on my list.
Unfortunatly, the GM ruled I could not because it would also take me a round to cast it; if I had wanted to counterspell it, I should have readied an action according to the rules.
Now, what's not up for debate is this situation; my GM ruled no, and that's that.
But what I'm wondering is the rules around counterspelling a spell that's already being cast. For example, What if it's a full round spell, and the caster has already spend a move action, deciding to cast over the course of his next turn... Would it be possible to counterspell without readying an action, simply by casting the same spell on your own full round? -assuming you identified the spell.
Okay, so for starters, GM did the spellcraft check early. They'd spend their round and when it ended, you'd get a spellcraft check. You could still see them prepping a spell, but you don't get the spellcraft check until they cast it. You can witness them preparing a spell and ready to counterspell.
For counterspelling, the GM is correct, counterspelling is a standard (or less) action. Spells that take longer to cast can't normally be countered. So against 1 round casting spells, if you had the means to cast the same spell in less time, you could counter it. Metamagic feats also don't count for the purposes of which spell is which, so a Maximized Magic Missile can be countered by a regular Magic Missile.
And, for the record, you need to have the spell prepared (or known for spontaneous casters), merely having it on your list isn't enough. Counterspelling requires casting the spell, so you "burn" your own spells in order to counter their spells.
That said, if you have access to Dispel Magic, you can use that spell in place of the actual spell, for the purpose of counterspelling. Dispel Magic is a standard action to cast.
Pax Miles wrote: Okay, so for starters, GM did the spellcraft check early. They'd spend their round and when it ended, you'd get a spellcraft check. You could still see them prepping a spell, but you don't get the spellcraft check until they cast it. You can witness them preparing a spell and ready to counterspell.
For counterspelling, the GM is correct, counterspelling is a standard (or less) action. Spells that take longer to cast can't normally be countered. So against 1 round casting spells, if you had the means to cast the same spell in less time, you could counter it. Metamagic feats also don't count for the purposes of which spell is which, so a Maximized Magic Missile can be countered by a regular Magic Missile.
And, for the record, you need to have the spell prepared (or known for spontaneous casters), merely having it on your list isn't enough. Counterspelling requires casting the spell, so you "burn" your own spells in order to counter their spells.
That said, if you have access to Dispel Magic, you can use that spell in place of the actual spell, for the purpose of counterspelling. Dispel Magic is a standard action to cast.
My bad... I said "on my list" when I should have said "prepared and ready".
Funny thing, though... my character was a witch who had both the spell sleep and the slumber hex... I reffered to my spell, but technically, I could cast sleep in a standard action as per slumber :P (but I'm guessing spell-like abilities can't counterspell actual spells?)
Hmmm, I didn't have dispel magic at the time (am planning to get it eventually, though)... but you're saying it *is* possible to counter a 1 round spell using dispel magic? Because that would still answer my quesion... of whenever or not it is somehow possible...
Runehacking wrote: Funny thing, though... my character was a witch who had both the spell sleep and the slumber hex... I reffered to my spell, but technically, I could cast sleep in a standard action as per slumber :P (but I'm guessing spell-like abilities can't counterspell actual spells?)
Hmmm, I didn't have dispel magic at the time (am planning to get it eventually, though)... but you're saying it *is* possible to counter a 1 round spell using dispel magic? Because that would still answer my quesion... of whenever or not it is somehow possible...
Spell-like abilties can't be countered or be used to counterspell (though I think if you had dispel magic as a spell-like ability, you could still counterspell with it as per the spell description).
The Improved Counterspell feat can be used to allow a standard action spell of the same School, but 1+ levels higher, to be used to counterspell a 1 round casting spell. So, against Sleep, as a 1st level Enchantment it could be countered by Zone of Truth, a 2nd level Enchantment.
Dispel Magic if you look at the third option, at the very bottom, it expains use for counterspelling. Unlike normal counterspelling, using Dispel Magic requires a Dispel check.
And this matters because a dispel check is based on caster level, while normal counterspelling doesn't require caster levels. So a 1st level character can counterspell a 20th level character's magic missile without any die rolling (they'd still have to ID the spell). But the dispel check is D20+your caster level vs 11+their caster level, so dispelling substancially higher level caster's spells is near impossible with Dispel Magic.
Greater Dispel Magic counterspells with +4 to the check, and there are two feats to further improved Dispel Checks: Dispel Focus and Greater Dispel Focus.
Since initiative is sequential in practice you have to have a readied action (presumably so you can 'simultaneously' cast the same spell).
Full round castings give you other options, usually a quicker spell to cut line of effect or spell targets just run away. In your example you could have just ducked underwater to cut line of effect.
Counterspelling is generally a losing proposition as it is reactive and consumes your action. Wizards with a bonded object and a good sized known/learned spell list are probably the most effective at a single counterspell.
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I find fireball to be a pretty effective counterspell.
My players use readied magic missiles and bow attacks to force concentration checks rather than counterlls. Has worked put well for them.
Agree that counterspelling is often inferior to other options. And it's merits are rather conditional. But was answering the OP's questions.
I think a GM could design encounters to encourage counterspelling, and in doing so, would improve the viability of the tactic.
For example, they'd start by making casters common in regular encounters. Then having the caster NPCs cast lower level spells whenever possible, since the main merit of counterspelling is found when a higher level caster uses low level spells (because normal counterspelling doesn't use caster level). Furthermore, having high level casters take metamagic versions of low level spells, rather than preparing high level spells, since metamagic feats don't affect spells for counterspelling purposes.
Associated question... if you have access to a given spell as a Spell-like ability, can THAT be used to counterspell?
Arcanists with a certain exploit can also counterspell as an immediate action with any spell one higher level.
Zarius wrote: Associated question... if you have access to a given spell as a Spell-like ability, can THAT be used to counterspell? No, spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell, or be counterspelled.
That said, if you had Dispel Magic as a spell-like ability, you could use it as per the spell's description, which includes the dispel check version of counterspelling.
Zarius wrote: Associated question... if you have access to a given spell as a Spell-like ability, can THAT be used to counterspell? Answered by Pax Miles, but here's the quote.
Spell-Like Abilities wrote: Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.
Pax Miles wrote:
For counterspelling, the GM is correct, counterspelling is a standard (or less) action. Spells that take longer to cast can't normally be countered.
Can you cite a rule that say that?
You can counterspell any spell, regardless of the casting time required by the spell.
What you need is a ready action for counterspelling.
Pax Miles wrote: Okay, so for starters, GM did the spellcraft check early. They'd spend their round and when it ended, you'd get a spellcraft check. You could still see them prepping a spell, but you don't get the spellcraft check until they cast it. You can witness them preparing a spell and ready to counterspell. The rules say the exact opposite. With your interpretation counterspelling with the same spell would never work.
PRD wrote: If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent's spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can't do either of these things. If the target tries to cast a spell, not if the target has completed casting a spell.
Once the casting is ended the spell is completed and it can't be counterpelled. You must conterspell while it is cast.
Pax Miles wrote: Zarius wrote: Associated question... if you have access to a given spell as a Spell-like ability, can THAT be used to counterspell? No, spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell, or be counterspelled.
That said, if you had Dispel Magic as a spell-like ability, you could use it as per the spell's description, which includes the dispel check version of counterspelling. Dispel magic can be used to dispel an ongoing effect resulting from a spell-like ability, but it cannot be used to counter a spell-like ability.
Diego Rossi wrote: Pax Miles wrote:
For counterspelling, the GM is correct, counterspelling is a standard (or less) action. Spells that take longer to cast can't normally be countered.
Can you cite a rule that say that?
You can counterspell any spell, regardless of the casting time required by the spell.
What you need is a ready action for counterspelling. You need to ready the action to counterspell, sure, but then you need to be able to cast the spell with that readied action.
Sorry, can't really quote on this device. In the Magic Section of the CRB, under Counterspells, the section covers it pretty well. Basically:
1. Ready to counterspell. Readying is a standard action.
2. As a free action, perform a spellcraft check to ID a cast spell.
3. Having successfully IDed the spell, you may spend your readied action to cast the spell you intend to use as a counterspell.
4. Having successfully cast your counterspell, and it being an eligible spell for counterspelling, the opposing spell is negated.
Step 3 is still a readied action. Counterspelling isn't an exception to how readied actions function. You can take a Move, Standard, or Swift action as a readied action.
So the only eligible spells for counterspelling, normally, are those that have these casting times of move, standard, or swift actions.
If you have the means to increase the types of actions that can be attempted while readying, then you could apply a broader selection of spells to counterspell. Likewise, if you can reduce the casting time to something that can be attempted as a standard action, you can counterspell that way.
It is also notable that the free action to ID spells with spellcraft, step 2, while required for counterspelling, is not unique to counterspelling, and is a check any character trained in spellcraft may attempt as a free action when any character casts a spell.
Furthermore, readying to counterspell doesn't force the caster to counterspell the first spell they ID. They can choose, each time they ID, if that's the spell they want to use their readied action on.
Pax Miles wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: Pax Miles wrote:
For counterspelling, the GM is correct, counterspelling is a standard (or less) action. Spells that take longer to cast can't normally be countered.
Can you cite a rule that say that?
You can counterspell any spell, regardless of the casting time required by the spell.
What you need is a ready action for counterspelling. You need to ready the action to counterspell, sure, but then you need to be able to cast the spell with that readied action.
You can counterspell with dispel magic. 1 standard action, no problem.
Any spell can counterpelled, regardless of casting time.
What you are arguing is that spell with a casting time longer than a standard action can't be used to counterspell, and that is a completely different argument.
Diego Rossi wrote: Pax Miles wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: Pax Miles wrote:
For counterspelling, the GM is correct, counterspelling is a standard (or less) action. Spells that take longer to cast can't normally be countered.
Can you cite a rule that say that?
You can counterspell any spell, regardless of the casting time required by the spell.
What you need is a ready action for counterspelling. You need to ready the action to counterspell, sure, but then you need to be able to cast the spell with that readied action.
You can counterspell with dispel magic. 1 standard action, no problem.
Any spell can counterpelled, regardless of casting time.
What you are arguing is that spell with a casting time longer than a standard action can't be used to counterspell, and that is a completely different argument. No, you are misreading and reacting to a point I didn't make. I didn't get that before, but it's clear now.
I said spells with a casting time of greater than a standard action can't "normally" be counterspelled. By normally, I was refering to the process of counterspelling via casting the same spell to counterspell - that would be normal counterspelling.
Dispel Magic is an exception to how counterspelling normally works, as is the improved counterspell feat, or the quicken metamagic feat. And there are many others. Yes, any spell can be countered, but normal counterspelling isn't able to counter spells with high casting times due to the limitation on readied actions.
Anyway, sounds like we agree in how counterspelling works, even if we minorly disagree in the way it should be worded.
My group and I came up with a homebrew counterspelling solution that we like better and that works for us.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Yeah, that seems like it just wasn't thought out. I'm going with a house interpretation that you can use the readied action to counterspell, by using the similar energies rather than the spell itself.
That's very much like we do. We just thought that there were so very many spells available now that two spellcasters having the exact spell readied or even in her repertoire was becoming increasingly unlikely.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
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blahpers wrote: I find fireball to be a pretty effective counterspell. In a similar vein, vital strike and deadly aim with a musket in my experience has never failed to counterspell.
I don't allow guns in my setting but that would certainly do the trick.
Pax Miles wrote:
Dispel Magic is an exception to how counterspelling normally works, as is the improved counterspell feat, or the quicken metamagic feat. And there are many others. Yes, any spell can be countered, but normal counterspelling isn't able to counter spells with high casting times due to the limitation on readied actions.
Dispel magic is is part of how counterspellying normally work. It is a specific way to counterspell, like using a directly opposite spell, but it is part of the normal rules about counterspelling.
In in game reality it is way more common to use Dispel magic to counterspell than the same spell that was cast or a spell that is the direct opposite, so saying that using dispel magic isn't part of the "normal" way of counterspelling is disingenuous.
Diego Rossi wrote: Dispel magic is is part of how counterspellying normally work. It is a specific way to counterspell, like using a directly opposite spell, but it is part of the normal rules about counterspelling.
In in game reality it is way more common to use Dispel magic to counterspell than the same spell that was cast or a spell that is the direct opposite, so saying that using dispel magic isn't part of the "normal" way of counterspelling is disingenuous.
Pax Miles wrote: Anyway, sounds like we agree in how counterspelling works, even if we minorly disagree in the way it should be worded.
Very late response to an old post but I’m playing a Witch too and the immediate thought I had was “why are you trying to counterspell when you have the sleep hex?”
You stated you had both the sleep spell and the sleep hex but the spell would not go off in time despite having all of your turn, because the spell was a full round action. The hex is only a standard action. It doesn’t matter that the hex won’t counterspell because all you need to do is stop the enemy spell and you can do so by stopping them from casting it before they finish.
Your other party members could try to force a concentration check by dealing damage but all you need to do is make the fey fall asleep before they finish the spell and by default they are not concentrating on it and it’s lost. There’s a chance they pass the will save, but it’s a solid tactic.
Karandrakas wrote: It doesn’t matter that the hex won’t counterspell because all you need to do is stop the enemy spell and you can do so by stopping them from casting it before they finish. One requires you to either have a directly countering spell readied or pass a DC on something you roll that is typically very fixed in probability of success from incident to incident. The other thing requires your enemy to fail a roll that is highly variable in probability of success, but predictably so, from incident to incident. It's up to you to make those approximate calculations in your head and decide which is the better option, that's called playing the game at a high skill level.
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