| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Other people playing something I don't have to play because they might breathe my air" is the most stupid and petty reason to be against something. I will listen to an argument from mechanics, I will listen to an argument from setting flavor. But an argument from "I got mine, screw you, I don't want you to have this thing you'd have fun with because I just don't want you to" is a mindset that should not be listened to or given any respect.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see how it is watering down. We already have ways to play "Paladin but different alignment." The only thing putting it in core is to let people do it without having to wait for the arbitrary restriction to go away through archetypes down the line. How on earth does it effect you that someone can play a proper Paladin of a non lg God. If anything it more fulfills the games flavour by letting people represent things that are in cannon already.I will state - If Paizo continues to water down the game's flavor in order to allow greater "player choice" for PC creation as a default option... I may go elsewhere. I have strong views on the value of the setting's baked in flavor... While I can always do that at my home table - That becomes harder and harder to do the more watered down the core is.
It also would force me to deal with it at PFS which is an absolute no-go for me.
More and more I am feeling less and less enthusiastic about PF2.
It affects me because I have to interact with them. That is how it effects me. It effects me when I encounter them as it DOES affect my enjoyment of the game and lore. It makes the Paladin less special and unique.
Or, to quote Syndrome, "When everyone is super, nobody is."
You’re quoting Syndrome, that movie’s villainous character. Oh, and yeah, we also have Dash (an immature ten-year-old little boy) saying it as well as that sentiment being implied to be shared by the movie’s main protagonist BEFORE he learns his Aesop.
Nah, I prefer a quote by a movie’s wise turtle mentor figure, echoed by the wise father figure, and finally summed up by the main protagonist AFTER he learns his Aesop: “There is no secret ingredient./ For something to be special, you just have to believe it’s special” -Po and Master Oogway and Mr. Ping, Kung Fu Panda.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Goblin paladins of Ragathiel with flaming chainsaws.
Yes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As evidenced by the people of these forums, a lot of people are under the impression that they can't play a LG character without something exploding, and those people need to be taught otherwise by being forced to do it. Giving people the option to play a CG paladin will mean people have one fewer reason to face their fear of LG characters and learn that everything is going to be okay, so that attitude will become even more widespread than it already is.
I don't see much of such reasoning. Mostly I see something else: quite logical question why ony Law and Good combination can divinely empower champions, oh, and Law and Evil, and Chaos and Evil...
Now for me it's most - in my homebrew but also in my Faerun and Golarion paladins are god appointed champions, not G/E/L/C because GELC powers are too transcendent to directly react with mortal without him exploding (Positive Plane Energy is closest to reachable manifestation of Good ;) ).
So I'd like mechanical support to create Tyrannical Champion of Asmodeus, Defender of Relics of Nethys, Undead Hunter of Pharasma or Wandering Sentinel of Desna, based on skeleton of Paladin of Iomedae as this most militant, least magical clergy members.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I can always do that at my home table - That becomes harder and harder to do the more watered down the core is.
Why? I mean why is it hard to restrict options on your home table to make less watered version. Ban CG paladins, ban half-elves and half-orcs and kitsune, ban arcanists and all archetypes with names starting on M.
Who will stop you?
In a worst - for you - situation - there will be new variants of paladin for different things - just like basically antipaladin is, and all bound by severe code (there is reason why demon clerics can pretend to be law-abiding nobles in Taldor, while antipaladin would lost his powers quickly). Those new variants... you can just ignore in your games. Even in PFS, chances are high of you meeting such people... rarely especially since you have numerous friendly group on PFS.
I do not know specific rules of PFS, but I suppose you're not forcibly randomly attributed to tables?
It affects me because I have to interact with them. That is how it effects me. It effects me when I encounter them as it DOES affect my enjoyment of the game and lore. It makes the Paladin less special and unique.
I'd say based on all AP's I've read... paladins are quite common thing around... and they are usually just seen as a militant arm of some churches - mostly Iomedae, Abadar and Sarenrae.
Their power set unlike in old D&D is not really so... powerful...? So they are not really special mechanically that much. There is not - power for conduct stuff from old times.
So yeah. Paladin is different basically mostly because of how he is seen eventually assuming common folk will distinguish between LG paladin of Iomedae, LG warpriest of Iomedae, LG cleric of Iomedae, LG cavalier worshipping Iomedae...
and with that - you still have code of conduct, and even if there will be new codes, the basic code of Valor will certainly remain around... so... you can still play paladin of Iomedae, that will be seen by Golarion folk just like he was, shining beacon of Law and Good, not as uncommon as he thinks... while there will be some other champions that will be seen... well totally different way, because they will be something else.
Or, to quote Syndrome, "When everyone is super, nobody is."
The problem is no paladin abilities even those unique in PF does not make him super - compared to some other classes.
Basically all heroic classes are going into Wuxia and Superhero level.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Neutrality, which came much later, basically exists as unpredictability.
Neutral was here before Good and Evil as alignments. http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2012/07/chainmail-alignment-chart.html
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, you can find the Know Direction Paladin clip HERE (starting around 1:14:37). Here's a quick transcript.
Would I be able to play a Chaotic-Good Paladin of Milani?
[Laughs] Boy that Paladin argument. Every single time. People love to get into very vicious debates about Paladin alignment. I’m going to say this. Alignment is still a thing in the game. Paladins still have to pay attention to alignment. That’s still something that’s important to them.
I think the thing that I’m most excited to talk to people about is how we have modified the Paladin’s Code to actually speak to reality and not be so inflexible that the characters are a pain at the table. I can’t tell you how excited I am about how that Code is written to the point.
And this is what I’ll leave you with. A Paladin can lie if he has to. If it will save people’s lives, if it is for the greater good, he can look you straight in the eye and lie. And it’s awesome.
It all comes down to the Code. And you have to follow the Code. The Code is the way that you live. But that Code now actually has guidance and it isn’t just a bunch of strictures that just say, ‘Nope you have to do this! You can never lie, you can never talk to an evil person, you can never’, you know ... There were a whole ton of things that you couldn’t do. Like, ‘Oh, I can’t associate with an evil person’.
Well, that made a lot of stories not work. It’s like, ‘Well, I have to go into Cheliax and I have to negotiate with these people. Drawing out my sword and murdering everyone is not really an option. I have to negotiate with these guys so I guess I’m going to need an atonement after this’ — was never really an acceptable way to run a Paladin.
So I’m really excited about that and I don’t want to spoil any more than that. There’s lots of great stuff about the Paladin but that’s one of the things that I’m most excited about, by leaps and bounds. It is great. I love Paladins and I always have. And this makes them really fun and dynamic to play.
Note, of course, that 'Paladins still have to pay attention to alignment' is NOT the same as 'Paladins can only be Lawful-Good'. Jason might have very artfully dodged the 'Chaotic-Good' part of the question ...
Any lawful with evil being saved for the anti?
"I... I might be able to be FREE in spreading beauty and joy to everyone? YESS!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"I... I might be able to be FREE in spreading beauty and joy to everyone? YESS!"
Of course you are. Now just climb into this cannon to help you get there quicker. goblins like fire right?... ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A Paladin can lie if he has to. If it will save people’s lives, if it is for the greater good, he can look you straight in the eye and lie. And it’s awesome.
Now TBH it sounds that rather to get us various Champion variants to mirror eternal balance and eternal struggle of Cosmic Forces, we will get dilluted LG paladin.... which is blah...
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Paladin can lie if he has to. If it will save people’s lives, if it is for the greater good, he can look you straight in the eye and lie. And it’s awesome.Now TBH it sounds that rather to get us various Champion variants to mirror eternal balance and eternal struggle of Cosmic Forces, we will get dilluted LG paladin.... which is blah...
What you call blah, I call absolutely necessary to protect Paladin players from GMs with a ridiculously narrow view of LG, and protect tables from stupid, heated arguments and damaged friendships.
Sure some elements of the Code were fuzzy as hell.
Now - Oath of Truth was in my opinion quite simple and easy.
Now obviously it should be PRINTED IN ROCK that if paladin refusal to lie and decieve would cause ENTIRE GALAXY GENOCIDE - GM has no bloody right to make paladin fall, he did good, sometimes good ends bad ;)
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
What you call blah, I call absolutely necessary to protect Paladin players from GMs with a ridiculously narrow view of LG, and protect tables from stupid, heated arguments and damaged friendships.A Paladin can lie if he has to. If it will save people’s lives, if it is for the greater good, he can look you straight in the eye and lie. And it’s awesome.Now TBH it sounds that rather to get us various Champion variants to mirror eternal balance and eternal struggle of Cosmic Forces, we will get dilluted LG paladin.... which is blah...
Good for people that play Lawful Good Paladins, at least those that had an issue with the old Code. But bad for people who don't want a Core class restricted to a single alignment just to appease people who will refuse to play the game if everyone else isn't forced to accept their view on the nature of Valor and Justice and such.
I really want to see Chaotic Good get some respect. And I really, really don't want to see a Core class that will likely fulfill an important class archetype many players want to play, restricted to a single alignment.
I do think a general change to the Code is a great idea to help players who enjoy Lawful Good, like myself, have an easier time playing the game. But if that's the solution then its still a spit in the face to people who don't want to play Lawful. And still saying "Lawful Good is better than Chaotic Good or Neutral Good, and only they can produce Champions against Evil!"
Sweet jimminy jibblets I sure do hate the "Paladins are special!" nonsense. They might be compared to commoners, but if the Rogue and Fighter are standing with you against Evil, you aren't exactly some lone light in the darkness. Where's that Paladin humility I love? Give it back Paizo, you and your "Lawful Good Paladin please." forum going thugs just jumped my boy in a back alley and beat him until he didn't remember who he was. Trying to unleash him on us like the T-1000, wearing the face of an old friend. Well, I'm going to get my crew together, we're going to get a T-800 and meet you in that steel factory of playtest feedback. Yeah, I said it. Like Robert Patrick having a really asian name in Double Dragon, I've got no idea where I'm going with this.
Good for people that play Lawful Good Paladins, at least those that had an issue with the old Code. But bad for people who don't want a Core class restricted to a single alignment just to appease people who will refuse to play the game if everyone else isn't forced to accept their view on the nature of Valor and Justice and such.
TBH I just found quite fine Paladin of Liberation on pfsrd, hidden in some weird place, so hey, if there are still LG paladins - just take it, and tweak it a bit.
If there will be PoLs in Core, then HWalsh will just remove and avoid them. Really guys.
This is Pathfinder, hodgepodge of incoherent ideas. Let's stop pretending it has to make any sense in any direction... ;)
TBH I'd like to get Paladins like from Greenwood first drafts of Realms, where they often violently clashed with CG Harpers, and LG and CG relations was only a small bit better than devils and demons ;)
|
TBH I just found quite fine Paladin of Liberation on pfsrd, hidden in some weird place, so hey, if there are still LG paladins - just take it, and tweak it a bit.Good for people that play Lawful Good Paladins, at least those that had an issue with the old Code. But bad for people who don't want a Core class restricted to a single alignment just to appease people who will refuse to play the game if everyone else isn't forced to accept their view on the nature of Valor and Justice and such.
The problem I have with that community creation is the fact that it has Chaotic abilities, implying that the standard Paladin has Lawful abilities. The Paladin doesn't. The Paladin of Liberation makes a decent archetype, for a base Paladin that requires an alignment of "any good" and a code of conduct to suit.
That's a matter of tweaking Paladin of Valor a bit so he get some axiomatic variants.
If there will be base Paladin he should by in my opinion by any alignment/code depended - and various powers/auras/AL restrictions based on a code.
Now obviously this is partially problem because PAIZO never managed to really paint interesting vision of Law/Chaos conflict.
Easy tweaks to LG paladin - his smite smite demons harder than non chaotic evil.
Give them Smite Chaos and send them forth to root out anarchic Paladins of Liberation from glorious Lastwall! ;)
I like idea that Paladins of Liberations are so vehemently Anarchic - they would kill enemy is alternative would be imprisonment.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having played DND from a time when Paladins just were lawful and Avengers were the chaotic counterparts with similar abilities, I have a different opinion then a lot of people. The game has changed over time. I am good with the game adding new flavors and varieties now.
I still prefer to weave a story. A player who wants to play a CG paladin will need to provide a good background but I am confident that I can weave such a character into my campaign story like I have been doing for many decades. The game requires both players and DMs to have choices.
Okay, you can find the Know Direction Paladin clip HERE (starting around 1:14:37). Here's a quick transcript.
Would I be able to play a Chaotic-Good Paladin of Milani?...[Laughs] Boy that Paladin argument. Every single time. People love to get into very vicious debates about Paladin alignment. I’m going to say this. Alignment is still a thing in the game. Paladins still have to pay attention to alignment. That’s still something that’s important to them.
I think the thing that I’m most excited to talk to people about is how we have modified the Paladin’s Code to actually speak to reality and not be so inflexible that the characters are a pain at the table. I can’t tell you how excited I am about how that Code is written to the point.
And this is what I’ll leave you with. A Paladin can lie if he has to. If it will save people’s lives, if it is for the greater good, he can look you straight in the eye and lie. And it’s awesome.
It all comes down to the Code. And you have to follow the Code. The Code is the way that you live. But that Code now actually has guidance and it isn’t just a bunch of strictures that just say, ‘Nope you have to do this! You can never lie, you can never talk to an evil person, you can never’, you know ... There were a whole ton of things that you couldn’t do. Like, ‘Oh, I can’t associate with an evil person’.
Well, that made a lot of stories not work. It’s like, ‘Well, I have to go into Cheliax and I have to negotiate with these people. Drawing out my sword and murdering everyone is not really an option. I have to negotiate with these guys so I guess I’m going to need an atonement after this’ — was never really an acceptable way to run a Paladin.
So I’m really excited about that and I don’t want to spoil any more than that. There’s lots of great stuff about the Paladin but that’s one of the things that I’m most excited about, by leaps and bounds. It is
Thank you Joe M.
I like this change. Not sure if it means I'll be able to play a paladin, but it is a step away from constant arguments and towards Paladins being more workable. Sets a good foundation for chaotic aligned paladin codes even if they start out LG only, meaning it is easier to houserule in a setup that makes sense for me. And hints that maybe more paladin alignments are available from the start.