Theories about Goblin Inclusion


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Rysky wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Half-elves and Half-orcs are definitely artifacts of legacy, and could easily be folded in to other ancestries.

Not in the slightest.

Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are their own thing, people like them, people play them, and they're major part of the setting (and many others), so outright erasing them is completely out of the question.

Which is why I said "folded in to other ancestries" and not erased. Please read posts before blindly responding.

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Core is not some specific special thing, in world or out. It just means it's in the Core Rulebook. That is literally it.

Simply not true, please read the thread as this has been covered numerous times.

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It's been 12 years and a lot has gone down, that effects lots of stuff in the setting. Goblins happen to be the only one of those things that effects the Core Ancestry lineup, but it's hardly the only event that's changed the world.

Pathfinder passes in real time and there is a 10 year skip between editions. And I was specifically referring to the core race line up and it staying exactly the same except for Goblins being hot glued.


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I don't run games in Golarion, ever, so this is not an issue that matters to me in the slightest, and because I feel this way I will not post in this thread...

dangit!

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Corrik wrote:
Pathfinder passes in real time and there is a 10 year skip between editions.

Sure, but world-wise, they started two years before going from 3.5 to Pathfinder, so we're talking 12 years since, say, the events of Burnt Offerings.

Corrik wrote:
And I was specifically referring to the core race line up and it staying exactly the same except for Goblins being hot glued.

Yes, I understood that. My counterpoint was that lots of things had, in fact, changed in the setting, it just so happened only one effected the Core Ancestry lineup, which is a very specific thing for world changes to effect. I'd actually have much more trouble suspending disbelief if there were more than one change in that lineup in such a span of time.


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Corrik wrote:

Uncommon races:
While one can expect to encounter members of the common races presented in this book’s first chapter in almost any settlement or nation in the Inner Sea region, the same cannot be said of the region’s uncommon races. More widespread than the rare races detailed in this book’s third chapter, members of these seven uncommon races may well have entire nations of their own, yet one should not expect to bump into an aasimar, kobold, or orc in just any city. Most common folk live their entire lives without meeting a member of some of the races detailed in this chapter.

This is not to say that they are few in number, though. Orcs, for example, control an entire region in the heart of Avistan—the orcs hordes have ruled the Hold of Belkzen for millennia, and there is no sign that their crushing grip will relent anytime soon. Goblin tribes exist throughout the Inner Sea region, primarily along its coastlines, and as soon as one clan of these violent little maniacs is put down, it seems that two more spring up in its place. The drow rule an empire in the Darklands realm of Sekamina whose scope and reach, were it a surface nation, would stretch to the ends of Avistan itself.
Yet despite their fecundity, the strength of their armies, or the power their individual members wield, these races remain uncommon among most settlements in the Inner Sea region. What holds them back from asserting a more dominant role? Why have they not achieved the same inf luence and spread as the common races? The answers are complex, and different for each of the seven races discussed here.

I know reading is hard so I pointed out the relevant parts for you.

Maybe you should read it again, there's nothing in there about "unfit for core" ;). The designation of "common" is arbitrary. It doesn't come from lore, it comes from the core races. Common = core, and nothing else. So to say goblins are unfit for core is circular reasoning. Just because something isn't currently core doesn't mean it is unfit.

Corrik wrote:
No I haven't. But please feel free to quote exactly where I said "7 plus a bunch". Because "why only goblins" in no way means "The 7 plus a bunch". Did you really think you had yourself a zinger there?

You tried to wiggle out of it! And failed :( You've been very clear that one option you feel is appropriate is to include the 7 plus a bunch of others. Explain how "7+" and "Why only goblins" are not synonymous. And if you need an example of you saying this, just look at the post you quoted. But here again, you backtrack on what you said. You are inconsistent and contradict yourself here. If you're going to hold this position, at least give some reasoning. Why does it have to be more than one race? What qualifies a race to be core? A discussion requires more than you attacking my points ;)

1. Sure, it's not that important. I'm just pointing out that one of your points is actually in favor of goblins ;)
2. I guess if widespread infamy and entire cultures with "kill-on-sight" opinions of goblins isn't important enough to validate being in core, nothing is. Maybe you're right, in which case only humans should be in core. No one else is important anyway.
3. Paizo has done stories where monsters appeal to players. If a player meets a goblin and says "they're evil, but they are endearing fun", that's part of storytelling. Do I really need to provide examples of this? Maybe you could provide an example of another race that accomplishes this as well as goblins?
4. Cute but evil is not currently a niche in Core. That doesn't mean it can't be. Who said they were less evil as a culture? Maybe a few adventurers are, but that's consistent with the lore. If you're going
5. OK... so you can't name any other races than? And again there can be more to this than the setting. Care to comment on that? Because when I say "this isn't important in setting" and then you say "but that doesn't matter in setting!"... Yes. I know. That's what I just said ;)
6. If you read the blog post again, you'll notice it makes no mention of goblin culture as a whole changing. Just that there are some adventurers out there who are slightly different. Isn't that the case of every other culture? I mean, cultures don't have to be uniform in Pathfinder all of a sudden, do they? Nothing is changing for the majority of goblins. The change will be something that makes people question their perceptions of goblins. That's it. Time travelling Godzilla not required ;)
7. Sure. Your link doesn't work, so I'll have to guess on which races to comment on. Orcs are redundant with half-orcs already in core (a huge, huge, huge strike against). Drow, kobolds, and planar races don't have as big a finger-print on Golarion, and are unrecognizable to those outside the industry. However, if you were to bring up counterexamples rather than just calling me confused, we might be able to talk about this more in depth ;) That's generally how Ad Hominems go.
8. Jason has said it was not a marketing decision (I'm taking your word on this even though you haven't cited it). That doesn't mean the point holds no water. Business matters. Branding matters. Care to explain why it doesn't rather than attacking me again?

Corrik wrote:
Wow, it's almost like I've made that point as an example for why the core race lineup should be updated instead of simply hot gluing goblins to it. Have you read my posts?

I have read your posts. They are inconsistent, as you have stated. Yet here again you give an example about how you think it should be 7+. You've also said you think it should be cut down, but you keep bringing up this "hot-glue" metaphor.

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Corrik wrote:
Quote:
It's been 12 years and a lot has gone down, that effects lots of stuff in the setting. Goblins happen to be the only one of those things that effects the Core Ancestry lineup, but it's hardly the only event that's changed the world.
Pathfinder passes in real time and there is a 10 year skip between editions. And I was specifically referring to the core race line up and it staying exactly the same except for Goblins being hot glued.

The setting existed before PF1. Adding something to a list does not make it "hot glued". It just makes it an addition to the list.

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Corrik wrote:
Which is why I said "folded in to other ancestries" and not erased.
Which would be erasing them. “I’m a human with a bit of Elf in my family tree” is not the same as playing a Half-Elf, not in the slightest
Corrik wrote:
Quote:
Core is not some specific special thing, in world or out. It just means it's in the Core Rulebook. That is literally it.
Simply not true, please read the thread as this has been covered numerous times.

And again this is wrong, “Core” Race is a meaningless term, outside of describing a race in the Core Rulebook. It has no metric, no special qualifier other than that.

I kindly suggest you drop the insults and talking down to people who are disagreeing with you, please, we’re not arguing against absolute facts and reality like you seem to think we are.

Take a break from this thread for awhile if need be.


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You tried to wiggle out of it! And failed :( You've been very clear that one option you feel is appropriate is to include the 7 plus a bunch of others.

I listed 4 of my posts that contradict this, but whatever buddy. I'm not wiggling out of anything, you just aren't making the point you seem to think you are.

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1. Sure, it's not that important. I'm just pointing out that one of your points is actually in favor of goblins ;)

2. I guess if widespread infamy and entire cultures with "kill-on-sight" opinions of goblins isn't important enough to validate being in core, nothing is. Maybe you're right, in which case only humans should be in core. No one else is important anyway.
3. Paizo has done stories where monsters appeal to players. If a player meets a goblin and says "they're evil, but they are endearing fun", that's part of storytelling. Do I really need to provide examples of this? Maybe you could provide an example of another race that accomplishes this as well as goblins?
4. Cute but evil is not currently a niche in Core. That doesn't mean it can't be. Who said they were less evil as a culture? Maybe a few adventurers are, but that's consistent with the lore. If you're going
5. OK... so you can't name any other races than? And again there can be more to this than the setting. Care to comment on that? Because when I say "this isn't important in setting" and then you say "but that doesn't matter in setting!"... Yes. I know. That's what I just said ;)
6. If you read the blog post again, you'll notice it makes no mention of goblin culture as a whole changing. Just that there are some adventurers out there who are slightly different. Isn't that the case of every other culture? I mean, cultures don't have to be uniform in Pathfinder all of a sudden, do they? Nothing is changing for the majority of goblins. The change will be something that makes people question their perceptions of goblins. That's it. Time travelling Godzilla not required ;)
7. Sure. Your link doesn't work, so I'll have to guess on which races to comment on. Orcs are redundant with half-orcs already in core (a huge, huge, huge strike against). Drow, kobolds, and planar races don't have as big a finger-print on Golarion, and are unrecognizable to those outside the industry. However, if you were to bring up counterexamples rather than just calling me confused, we might be able to talk about this more in depth ;) That's generally how Ad Hominems go.
8. Jason has said it was not a marketing decision (I'm taking your word on this even though you haven't cited it). That doesn't mean the point holds no water. Business matters. Branding matters. Care to explain why it doesn't rather than attacking me again?
And again you are unable to back up any of your points other than restating them as if they are true and providing no actual, in setting examples. So yes, that was the extent of your arguing ability. Here are some of Bulmahn's comments for you and here is the poll.
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You've also said you think it should be cut down, but you keep bringing up this "hot-glue" metaphor.

"You said you'd rather this happen and are complain that something else happened instead, CHECK MATE!!1!"

Ok pal.

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Which would be erasing them. “I’m a human with a bit of Elf in my family tree” is not the same as playing a Half-Elf, not in the slightest

Or an elf with human in their family. How is playing a subset ancestry not "in the slightest" the same? Is making Duergar a subset of the Dwarven ancestry erasing them?

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And again this is wrong, “Core” Race is a meaningless term, outside of describing a race in the Core Rulebook. It has no metric, no special qualifier other than that.

I kindly suggest you drop the insults and talking down to people who are disagreeing with you, please, we’re not arguing against absolute facts and reality like you seem to think we are.

Take a break from this thread for awhile if need be.

No it isn't, as campaign setting books draw a distinction, as I have quoted multiple times. And I'll take text from Inner Sea Races over you going "Nu uhhh". If you don't want to be spoken down to, read the thread and make a compelling point. I'll be sticking around, but feel free to take a break yourself.

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The setting existed before PF1. Adding something to a list does not make it "hot glued". It just makes it an addition to the list.

Good point, 22 years then. Simply adding something to a list does not make it hot glued, this is true. Making a marketing decision and trying to retroactively justify it against a decade of conflicting releases does. Especially when there are numerous other changes that could and/or should happen first or along side.

Quote:
Yes, I understood that. My counterpoint was that lots of things had, in fact, changed in the setting, it just so happened only one effected the Core Ancestry lineup, which is a very specific thing for world changes to effect. I'd actually have much more trouble suspending disbelief if there were more than one change in that lineup in such a span of time.

And only one thing changing more than suspends by disbelief. Especially if that something is as massive as Goblins becoming core. Because it requires fairly specific things to happen for Goblins to become core, but no other changes. Literally a single war could put Elves on the brink of extinction. Orcs could rally to help defeat the Whispering Tyrant and be hailed as heroes. Lizardfolk could hold the key to his final defeat and similarly hailed as heroes. Kobolds could retake some Dwarven sky citadels and form a new alliance. Any number of heroes who saved the day in the APs could be from the various races. Andoran could tell every to stop being such a+#&#~%s. And these are all just off handed examples. But no, everything about the racial line up is the same, except that Goblins are being added. Too big of a pill to swallow.


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The constant stream of insults and abuse here is kind of impressive, in a way. It really makes me long for the welcoming friendliness of discussing politics with strangers on Facebook.

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Corrik wrote:
And only one thing changing more than suspends by disbelief. Especially if that something is as massive as Goblins becoming core. Because it requires fairly specific things to happen for Goblins to become core, but no other changes. Literally a single war could put Elves on the brink of extinction. Orcs could rally to help defeat the Whispering Tyrant and be hailed as heroes. Lizardfolk could hold the key to his final defeat and similarly hailed as heroes. Kobolds could retake some Dwarven sky citadels and form a new alliance. Any number of heroes who saved the day in the APs could be from the various races. Andoran could tell every to stop being such a*%&*$%s. And these are all just off handed examples. But no, everything about the racial line up is the same, except that Goblins are being added. Too big of a pill to swallow.

... except those aren't the things that will have happened. Sure, those other things could have happened and changed the core lineup, but they won't.

Each of the setting-changing catastrophes are each incredibly rare on their own. The chance of any two happening is so vanishingly small as to not be worth considering. With enough small chances though, the probability that any one actually happens is surprisingly high. Your intuition about statistics just isn't correct.

It just so happens that the one improbably thing that will happen is the one that makes goblins suitable for core.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Corrik wrote:
And only one thing changing more than suspends by disbelief. Especially if that something is as massive as Goblins becoming core. Because it requires fairly specific things to happen for Goblins to become core, but no other changes. Literally a single war could put Elves on the brink of extinction. Orcs could rally to help defeat the Whispering Tyrant and be hailed as heroes. Lizardfolk could hold the key to his final defeat and similarly hailed as heroes. Kobolds could retake some Dwarven sky citadels and form a new alliance. Any number of heroes who saved the day in the APs could be from the various races. Andoran could tell every to stop being such a*%&*$%s. And these are all just off handed examples. But no, everything about the racial line up is the same, except that Goblins are being added. Too big of a pill to swallow.

... except those aren't the things that will have happened. Sure, those other things could have happened and changed the core lineup, but they won't.

Each of the setting-changing catastrophes are each incredibly rare on their own. The chance of any two happening is so vanishingly small as to not be worth considering. With enough small chances though, the probability that any one actually happens is surprisingly high. Your intuition about statistics just isn't correct.

It just so happens that the one improbably thing that will happen is the one that makes goblins suitable for core.

Except none of those things are improbable in this setting, and some of them verge on likely. Hell, given their described birth rates, low population, and abundance of threats, I'm surprised Elves aren't extinct. What is improbable to impossible is that Goblins would get a promotion to Core without any other changes happening. Goblins gaining enough power, prestige, and respect to be considered core would branch out to effect an incredible amount of things. Even just a statistically significant portion of the Inner Sea viewing Goblins as people, let alone a core race, would have dramatic consequences. If people were wrong about Goblins then they were effectively wrong about every other monstrous or "evil" race. That would represent a profound shift in the Inner Sea racial dynamics. That shift alone could be enough for the various races to climb up in the world. It doesn't end there though, if Goblins are changed, or the new core ones are differentiated from the old Goblins, then that could confirm the view of them as monsters. "See, these new guys aren't so bad, but they prove we were right to treat the other Goblins as monsters", which could then serve as proof that the other monstrous races are nothing more than monsters. If Goblins used to be people but turned in to murder monkeys, then any of the other monstrous races could "go bad" as well. Goblins becoming a core race will not and can not happen in a vacuum. It's one of the reasons I've called for the core race lineup to be updated instead of just happening hot gluing Goblins to it.


Weather Report wrote:

I see the CRB as not just Golarian, but a d20 ruleset to use for fantasy settings, so, depending on the setting, certain things may not be allowed, like Paladins and Goblins in Dark Sun.

Funnily enough, goblin is a perfectly appropriate PC race choice for Al-Qadim, they have kobold barbers, hill giant merchants and what-not.

Actually, Paizo is going the opposite direction for 2e. Clerics and Paladins will now require gods and have anathemas, which are Golarion specific things.

The designers have even said that with 1e, they went for a broader core approach in 1e because they were afraid of alienating 3.5 fans, but that now they are much more willing to tie mechanics to their setting.

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Corrik wrote:
What is improbable to impossible is that Goblins would get a promotion to Core without any other changes happening. Goblins gaining enough power, prestige, and respect to be considered core would branch out to effect an incredible amount of things.

You are conflating natural consequences of goblins becoming core with statistically independent, unlikely events like kobolds or lizardfolk rising up. Those two kinds of things do not behave the same way.

Yes, other changes will come as a consequence of whatever makes goblins core, and of goblins being core itself. It's not that nothing else will change, just that those changes won't affect the core ancestries. So no, it doesn't mean orcs, lizardfolk, and kobolds will also be core.

You also seem to forget that Golarion exists as a narrative. Just because something can or might happen, doesn't mean it will. Whatever does happen is the story the team chose to tell.

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Locking this for now.

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It appears to be unlocked at this time.

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Thanks.

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