If an Invisible Stalker is turned to stone, can you see it (without magic)?


Rules Questions


Had a hallway full of Invisible Stalkers struck by a Prismatic Spray from a scroll by a PC caster under effects of a True Seeing. Two of the creatures where turned to stone. I see no immunities for the stalkers against petrification, so they turn to stone. But the question came up about what a PC not under a True Seeing would see. Would the stalker now be a visible stone figure? What would it look like? Would the Natural Invisibility ability make them two Invisible stone shapes?

Technically being turned to stone alone does not mean you are dead (until enough damage is done to the stone to make it impossible for a Stone to Flesh to bring the affected back and survive, according to other posts here in the rules forum and this is the inturp we use in our game). So if they are not dead, does the Natural Invisibility still work?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Invisible stalkers are invisible because whatever they’re made of is transparent to light.

That isn’t a trait shared by stone. A petrified invisible stalker should be as visible as any other large rock.


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2bz2p wrote:

Had a hallway full of Invisible Stalkers struck by a Prismatic Spray from a scroll by a PC caster under effects of a True Seeing. Two of the creatures where turned to stone. I see no immunities for the stalkers against petrification, so they turn to stone. But the question came up about what a PC not under a True Seeing would see. Would the stalker now be a visible stone figure? What would it look like? Would the Natural Invisibility ability make them two Invisible stone shapes?

Technically being turned to stone alone does not mean you are dead (until enough damage is done to the stone to make it impossible for a Stone to Flesh to bring the affected back and survive, according to other posts here in the rules forum and this is the inturp we use in our game). So if they are not dead, does the Natural Invisibility still work?

Hmm, I'm thinking that wouldn't work. Prismatic Spray effects as Flesh to Stone spell
Flesh to Stone wrote:
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch. Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.
Invisible Stalker wrote:
N Medium outsider (air, elemental, extraplanar)

So, I'm thinking the Invisible Stalker is not made of flesh, rather of air, and in turn wouldn't be susceptible to the Flesh to Stone effect from Prismatic Spray


I'm pretty sure they're made of some sort of fleshy matter

Hell's Rebels Spoiler:
You can eat one in Hell's Rebels during a fancy Dinner


Firewarrior44 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they're made of some sort of fleshy matter

Hmm....that seems to directly contrast with the Bestiary entry, and the Elemental subtype

Invisible Stalker wrote:


...invisible stalkers form negative opinions of these creatures of flesh and bone
Bestiary wrote:


Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.

Not sure which has precedence, AP or Bestiary

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

There's a petrified invisible stalker in Mummy's Mask, and it's perfectly visible. So, yes, it would appear that they're visible. ^_^

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

bhampton wrote:
Firewarrior44 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they're made of some sort of fleshy matter

Hmm....that seems to directly contrast with the Bestiary entry, and the Elemental subtype

Invisible Stalker wrote:


...invisible stalkers form negative opinions of these creatures of flesh and bone
Bestiary wrote:


Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.
Not sure which has precedence, AP or Bestiary

Well, to be fair, the flesh of the invisible stalker in that adventure is described as a "fluffy, wispy mass" with a texture somewhat similar to cotton candy, so it's meat without being particularly meaty.

That adventure is also rad as hell.

Spoiler:
You're at a fancy dinner party, and you have to try not to look like an idiot by eating the exotic food incorrectly.

The third course is meat pies made from invisible stalker, and you have to find and eat all the invisible stalker meat chunks hidden in the clear sauce of the pie before reaction with the air renders them visible and bitter-tasting.


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A stoned invisible stalker shifts to the earth element as o-read-ing is fundamental.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


Well, to be fair, the flesh of the invisible stalker in that adventure is described as a "fluffy, wispy mass" with a texture somewhat similar to cotton candy, so it's meat without being particularly meaty.

That adventure is also rad as hell.

** spoiler omitted **

Kalindlara wrote:
There's a petrified invisible stalker in Mummy's Mask, and it's perfectly visible. So, yes, it would appear that they're visible. ^_^

So I couldn't find it in Mummy's Mask (albeit at a brief glance), and found it in Hell's Rebels, and it seems to be (pardon the pun) flavour text. Not sure how that interacts with the Bestiary and Core rules entry. At least from the description of the spell and elemental sub-type, I don't think Prismatic Spray would petrify one. Any other thoughts on it?


On exactly what flesh to stone works on is going to encounter some GM interpretation from time to time.

I'd agree that constructs and incorporeals are generally out (dang you flesh golem), and IMO elementals don't qualify unless they are fleshy (usually native outsiders).

In the adventure it could have been a mythic spell or a wish. Writers aren't constrained to a core reading of the rules. We get to read exciting things and different aspects of things.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

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bhampton wrote:


So I couldn't find it in Mummy's Mask (albeit at a brief glance)

It's in

Spoiler:
book3 area C3

Firewarrior44 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they're made of some sort of fleshy matter

** spoiler omitted **

Well that Hell's Rebels adventure sure influenced my decision, not consciously, but I thought of Invisible Stalkers as being fleshy because of it and never questioned the idea a Stalker might be 100% elemental. Too late to take back now... Think I will go with Invisible Object Rules...


Grumpus wrote:
bhampton wrote:


So I couldn't find it in Mummy's Mask (albeit at a brief glance)
It's in ** spoiler omitted **

There it is. This one is petrified through the gaze attack of the Medusa which do effect ethereal creatures

Bestiary wrote:
Gaze attacks can affect ethereal opponents.

As Azothath states, probably does require some DM fiat.

Now, 2bz2p you could turn this and have them just temporarily petrified and if the party goes back that way there's 2 rather angry Invisible Stalkers waiting for some revenge.


"Ethereal creature" is a description of a creature's planar location (e.g., on the Ethereal Plane, coterminous with the Material Plane) and is unrelated to the flavor of a creature's physical makeup. ^_^


Isabelle Lee wrote:
"Ethereal creature" is a description of a creature's planar location (e.g., on the Ethereal Plane, coterminous with the Material Plane) and is unrelated to the flavor of a creature's physical makeup. ^_^

It's also a description of the creature as well, as per the Ethereal Jaunt spell

Ethereal wrote:
An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed. As an insubstantial creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures. An ethereal creature can see and hear on the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and ephemeral. Sight and hearing onto the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.

So while it is a description of their location, that location has an impact on their physical make-up as well. Hence why Gaze attacks are able to effect Ethereal creatures.


Those descriptions are written from the perspective of the Material Plane, with the looseness that the CRB often contains. I trust Planar Adventures over it (though I don't remember if that book will have a glossary of terms or anything similar). For already-released books, Occult Adventures and the GameMastery Guide come to mind as more detailed sources. And if I wanted something that really nails it down, I'd look back to 3.0's Manual of the Planes or Rules Compendium.

Derail aside, there's nothing "ethereal" (mechanically speaking) about the invisible stalker, unless it's actually on the Ethereal Plane. Ethereal status has no impact on the situation in this thread. ^_^


How did ethereal come up? Invisible stalkers aren't ethereal AFAIK.


No, Invisible Stalkers aren't ethereal, but they share several characteristics of ethereal creatures, invisible, insubstantial. It was brought up that there are 2 instances of petrified Invisible Stalkers in APs.

Spoiler:
One was through a gaze attack from a medusa, which can affect ethereal creatures.

Which is different to the Flesh to Stone spell, which only works on creatures with flesh.


It seems to me that they would look like an extra-dimensional air elemental, so it would not have flesh.

Invisible Stalker

No true form can be detected, yet a sense of force and hulking malevolence is undeniable in this creature’s presence.

Invisible Stalker
CR 7
XP 3,200
N Medium outsider ( air, elemental, extraplanar)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +12
DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+4 Dex, +6 natural)
hp 80 (7d10+42)
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +4
Defensive Abilities natural invisibility; Immune elemental traits
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 (perfect)
Melee 2 slams +12 (2d6+4)
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 19, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 11
Base Atk +7; CMB +11; CMD 25
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (slam)
Skills Acrobatics +14, Bluff +10, Fly +22, Knowledge (planes) +12, Perception +12, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +14, Survival +12
Languages Auran, Common
SQ improved tracking
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Improved Tracking (Ex)
An invisible stalker takes no penalty to Survival checks when tracking and moving at any speed.
Natural Invisibility (Ex)
This ability is constant—an invisible stalker remains invisible at all times, even when attacking. As this ability is inherent, it is not subject to the invisibility purge spell. Against foes that cannot pinpoint it, the invisible stalker gains a +20 bonus on Stealth checks when moving, or +40 when standing still—these bonuses are not included in the statistics above.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Invisible stalkers aren't insubstantial. They're corporeal creatures, with physical bodies. They might just be made of solid air, but air is a substance, and they're definitely solid enough to beat you to death or get hacked apart with a sword.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Invisible stalkers aren't insubstantial. They're corporeal creatures, with physical bodies. They might just be made of solid air, but air is a substance, and they're definitely solid enough to beat you to death or get hacked apart with a sword.

Yes, I agree. But I don't think it would have flesh.

This link has a picture and description of an Invisible Stalker

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Invisible_stalker

Uses

They were sometimes summoned by mages to perform tasks.

Abilities

Stalkers had the innate ability to remain invisible even in combat. Stalkers attacked by using gusts of wind to pummel their opponent. Killing an invisible stalker anywhere other than its home plane dismissed the stalker back to its home.

Personality

Invisible stalkers were elemental beings from the Plane of Air. They were composed entirely of solidified air, but unlike a normal air elemental, they were not tempestuous beings. Their calm demeanor made them invisible to normal sight. This invisibility made the stalker a perfect creature for summoners that wished to perform clandestine missions.

The fact that they were so frequently summoned to the natural world made invisible stalkers hostile towards creatures on the Material Plane. Many invisible stalkers would obey their masters to the letter of their commands, and seek any way they could to subvert their magical shackles.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

I was responding to the post above you, from bhampton, who was saying stalkers were insubstantial.

I agree, there’s a solid argument that they aren’t made of anything the game would consider “flesh”.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

I was responding to the post above you, from bhampton, who was saying stalkers were insubstantial.

I agree, there’s a solid argument that they aren’t made of anything the game would consider “flesh”.

So I think this answers the OP's question. The stalkers wouldn't even be able to be petrified with Flesh to Stone from Prismatic Spray. But they *could* be petrified by something else (such as a Medusa's Petrifying Gaze). And, if they were petrified, their substantial make-up would change from air to stone, so they would be visible.


Unless they are naturally invisible stone... ;^)

Chatting-

it is a game where magic plays a large part. Yes, most magic produces regular stone. GMs and writers get creative now and then...
Honestly, in writing an example like the above can serve as a warning and foreshadowing. There be trouble ahead...

I think the will-o-wisp (and knock-offs) is another creature where the writings have explored their composition and mass.

In a practical manner, IF an invisible stalker has a loose cotton candy like corporeal form And was turned to common stone, I would think they'd become visible and then crash onto the floor turning into tiny bits of fiberous stone... air elementals naturally fly and don't like walking on the earth so they will naturally have some height above the floor. Air elemental creatures are also known to have wispy non-sturdy forms (it's a thematic thing).
Density of air at sea level is 1.225E-3 g/cm3. Density of common rock 2.62-2.75 g/cm3.


Screw it. Change their (air) subtype to (earth) replace their fly speed with earth glide. Laugh.

Sczarni

Spoiler:
They do a lot of things in modules which you can't do in the game. It is as if some writers have never even played PF before. And some of them forget to put in doors (lots of missing doors).
In practical matters: Flesh to Stone affects flesh... "An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane." Just because it is an outsider subtype does not mean it is 100% those things. So I would say this gives us a solid "maybe." Nothing in Air says they don't have flesh. BUT elemental says "An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water." So it is ALL AIR. No Flesh. Maybe = certainly NOT. Flesh to Stone would not affect an Invisible Stalker. Sorry. RAW. Follow the chain.

They are still invisible because they are not stone, because they are not flesh which is all that is affected by the spell.


maouse wrote:

** spoiler omitted ** In practical matters: Flesh to Stone affects flesh... "An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane." Just because it is an outsider subtype does not mean it is 100% those things. So I would say this gives us a solid "maybe." Nothing in Air says they don't have flesh. BUT elemental says "An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water." So it is ALL AIR. No Flesh. Maybe = certainly NOT. Flesh to Stone would not affect an Invisible Stalker. Sorry. RAW. Follow the chain.

They are still invisible because they are not stone, because they are not flesh which is all that is affected by the spell.

This is probably the MOST correct answer, but it never came to my mind when the prismatic spray was used because I recalled the Petrified Invisible Stalker in Hell's Rebels. So, now that I LET it happen I am stuck with dealing with it. Going with Invisible Object for now.

To your point, however, I agree. It was a mistake to allow the Stalker to be affected by a "flesh to stone" effect. In fairness to the player, however, using that scroll was a major expenditure of a resource and I don't really feel all that bad bad letting it have the full effect.

Dark Archive

2bz2p wrote:

This is probably the MOST correct answer, but it never came to my mind when the prismatic spray was used because I recalled the Petrified Invisible Stalker in Hell's Rebels. So, now that I LET it happen I am stuck with dealing with it. Going with Invisible Object for now.

To your point, however, I agree. It was a mistake to allow the Stalker to be affected by a "flesh to stone" effect. In fairness to the player, however, using that scroll was a major expenditure of a resource and I don't really feel all that bad bad letting it have the full effect.

Yeh, all said, the Medusa Gaze would still affect them. A garden full of invisible statues of summoned Stalkers... and when you kill the medusa all her magic fades... musuauahahahaaa... oh wait, now I am writing as if I never read the rules... lol.


maouse33 wrote:
Yeh, all said, the Medusa Gaze would still affect them. A garden full of invisible statues of summoned Stalkers... and when you kill the medusa all her magic fades... musuauahahahaaa... oh wait, now I am writing as if I never read the rules... lol.

Summoned Stalkers would just vanish after a fairly short time (Seconds to years). Going to want Called invisible stalkers.

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