Can you increase your Caster level beyond your HD?


Rules Questions


I know that many traits, feats, abilities indicate sometimes that you can increase your CL but not beyond current HD, but it's written as something specific

Any place in the rules that refers to the limit of CL vs your actual HD or level??

So for example, if, I'm a level 15 wizard and get an orange prism ioun stone (+1CL), do I now cast spells at CL 16 or I'm still limited by my HD (so 15th)??

Thanks


I cannot recall one. CL though generally only influences CL checks, checks for concentration, and occasionally damage.


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There is no general rule that CL cannot exceed HD. Some feats or traits may place a restricion on its use, for example the Magical knack trait.

The wizard in your example casts spells at caster level 16.
I have a 14th level wizard with Varisian tattoo(evocation), pyromaniac gnome race trait (+1 CL to fire spells) and Spell Specialization(Fireball), his CL for Fireball is 18.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
CL though generally only influences CL checks, checks for concentration, and occasionally damage.

There is one instance where increasing your (general) caster level really offers something significant: Split Major hex has "caster level 18th" as prereq, with the ioun stone, a Witch can select it as her 17th level feat.


There are some spells like Holy Word that affect HD of creatures equal to your CL, so high caster level is extremely useful. Also Battering blast uses your caster level to calculate the number of blasts you generate with no cap.
Oh, and it is easier to penetrate SR with higher than normal cl.


I found one instance where CL was not able to surpass HD. It's a trait in Ultimate Campaign that gives +2 CL, but it can't surpass your total HD. It's use I imagine is multiclassing, but so far it is the only exception I've found.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It is the only one, because otherwise the arcanist ability to burn a point of Arcane Reservoir to increase caster level is useless.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I found one instance where CL was not able to surpass HD. It's a trait in Ultimate Campaign that gives +2 CL, but it can't surpass your total HD. It's use I imagine is multiclassing, but so far it is the only exception I've found.

It's the patron trait of eldritch knights.


Yes, there are feats that let CL>HD. Just search the feats. Cooperative spellcasting is one.


I wish Monsters had a way to increase their caster levels. Or is it now official that their spell-like abilities CL increases on a 1 to 1 ratio to their Hit Dice?


Barachiel Shina wrote:
I wish Monsters had a way to increase their caster levels. Or is it now official that their spell-like abilities CL increases on a 1 to 1 ratio to their Hit Dice?

The monster advancement rules don't mention this. There's a rule for true dragons (CL for SLA = HD, CL for spells as listed in the specific description), but no other creatures afaik. However, I'd assume that the CL for spell-like abilities should increase if the monster advances by racial HD (not if it gains class levels). I'd try to keep the same CL to HD ratio as the original monster, rather than go +1 CL for +1 HD, though (a 10 HD CL 8 creature would grow to a 15 HD CL 12 one).


To start with, something like the Kitsune racial trait Sacred Study does. It's just a flat +1 to caster level, but only for your Favored Class. It's certainly useful for something like Bone Shaker, where it's damage increases based on your caster level.


Arcanists can spend arcane points to boost their CL by 1 (or 2 with exploit) combined with tattoo... yea theres a lot of ways.


Some Alchemical Power Components give +1 CL to some spells.

The Bead of karma gives you +4 CL.

/cevah

Sczarni

LOL. This is the premise behind the "zapparoo" Sorcerer Magus build. You get a few feats and racial traits and traits that add to Shocking Grasp/CL (and reduce metamagic feat cost by 1). At first level you can do a 4d6+8 Shocking Grasp pretty easily. As you go up levels, you eventually are doing 10d6+20 with it, delivering it through a weapon for a x2 damage multiplier (20d6+40) and eventually empowering it (30d6+60) or maximizing it (160 damage, no save, 2x a round with one quickened). Yeh, it is pretty ugly for a no save first level touch spell... Oh, and can deliver the Sorcerer's as well as the Magus' pool of 1st level spells through your crit heavy weapon (15-20 with keen scabbard or spell). Dip a level(or 3) of Arcanist for a few more castings. Got a build with about 25/day (1st level slots), which is plenty for most days. Of course you will throw in elemental spell metamagic feat around level 5 so you aren't limited to just electric damage. Save your pennies for that quickened spell metamagic rod (or wait for spell perfection feat at level 15). lolz.


Azothath wrote:
Yes, there are feats that let CL>HD. Just search the feats. Cooperative spellcasting is one.

Earth Magic from Ultimate Wilderness is another.


@Cevah: The Bead of karma gives you +4 CL.

That's a good thing for divine caster, but unfortunately not for arcane...piety!!


Unless you are in a world setting that allows it, ie Dragonlance, you maybe out of luck


Cuttler wrote:

@Cevah: The Bead of karma gives you +4 CL.

That's a good thing for divine caster, but unfortunately not for arcane...piety!!

Why not? Nothing in the description keys its use to divine. A divine spell cast will tell you how to use it, but there is no restriction.

Even UMD can make this work.

/cevah


youare right....didn'T get that nuance...

it says: This item appears to be nothing more than a string of prayer beads until the owner casts a divine spell while the beads are carried. Once that occurs, the owner instantly knows the powers of the prayer beads and understands how to activate the strand’s special magical beads.

It would appear though that you still have to cast a divine spell to know how to activate it....

Question: can UMD replicates casting a divine spell??

Dark Archive

Cuttler wrote:

youare right....didn'T get that nuance...

it says: This item appears to be nothing more than a string of prayer beads until the owner casts a divine spell while the beads are carried. Once that occurs, the owner instantly knows the powers of the prayer beads and understands how to activate the strand’s special magical beads.

It would appear though that you still have to cast a divine spell to know how to activate it....

Question: can UMD replicates casting a divine spell??

UMD was made for activating items "blindly" - so you can make it work without knowing what it does or how it works.

Silver Crusade

Couple an arcanist with Potent Magic and an orange prism ioun stone in a wayfinder and for spending 1 point of arcane Resivore you can increase you CL by up to 5..


Wasn't there a thread about a Water Elemental death-ball filled with Witch guppies that could crank up Caster Levels to a ridiculous extreme?

While that thread got rather silly in the end, it had a lot of sound advice as I recall.


VRMH wrote:

Wasn't there a thread about a Water Elemental death-ball filled with Witch guppies that could crank up Caster Levels to a ridiculous extreme?

While that thread got rather silly in the end, it had a lot of sound advice as I recall.

Was this the one? It mentions a gripply swarm, and fish in an elemental.

A later post [just a few down] has:

Sissyl wrote:

We got death star

we got death star
we got death star
we got death star

EDIT: Someone came up with CL 1,434,399. [478,125 diminutive witches with +3 Aid Another effects.]

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

Someone came up with CL 1,434,399. [478,125 diminutive witches with +3 Aid Another effects.]

LMAO! 478,125 Diminutive witches with Aid another... I snort laughed :D

Anywho, yes you can increase your Caster Level in multiple ways, even beyond your actual level. Items, abilities, feats, traits all stack together.

Genoin was just talking about his 16th lvl Blood Arcanist who could cast Battering Blast at CL25 so he could get 5 orbs of force, which would each deal 8d6+16 damage (with Orc Bloodline, Blood Havoc, Blood Intensity, Potent Magic, Varisian Tattoo, etc) for a total of 40d6+80 dmg, and a 75CMB to bull rush.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

And then the GM stop it pointing out that "In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once." It is in Aid another.


Cevah wrote:
VRMH wrote:
Wasn't there a thread about a Water Elemental death-ball filled with Witch guppies
Was this the one?

Yeah that's the one, thanks. Was searching for the wrong keywords.


I found some errors in the calculation. See this post for details. Max coven boost is +514,000 CL.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just did a bit of checking, at level 2, I can cast a single spell per day at CL 10. 1 Spell Sage wizard/ 1 Arcanist. Magical Knack to boost Arcanist to CL 2, Wayang Spellhunter to lower the metamagic cost of 1 spell, Potent Magic as the Arcanist exploit, Spell Focus as the Spell Sage class feature, Spell Specialization as one feat, Intensified Spell as human bonus. 2 for arcanist+2 for potent magic+4 from Signature Spell,+2 for Spell Specialization. Level 2, and a 10d6 Snowball or Shocking Grasp, or a 10d4 Burning Hands.


Hiring an NPC should be within your means. A Changeling with the Coven Caster feat will give you another +1.

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