Swarms vs Swarms?


Rules Questions


If I encounter an enemy swarm, so I summon my own swarm to deal with them, can they attack eachother? Where is this found?


They would both occupy overlapping squares and do automatic damage +50% to each other.

Swarm subtype wrote:
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area
Swarm subtype wrote:
Swarm Attack: creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed.


I thought Swarms can't occupy the same space.


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Stephen Ede wrote:
I thought Swarms can't occupy the same space.
swarm subtype wrote:
A swarm can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so.

There's no exception for other swarms there. I think you can actually stack an infinite number of swarms in the same space.

Sczarni

avr wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:
I thought Swarms can't occupy the same space.
swarm subtype wrote:
A swarm can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so.
There's no exception for other swarms there. I think you can actually stack an infinite number of swarms in the same space.

See also the most potent magic item in the game: Pipes of the Sewer, 1150 gp. Take Rich Parents and one other money tree trait in a home game, buy them at first level. Be an Alchemist with 20 Int and Bombs. Summon rat swarms into a pit. 3 a day. Bomb them. You will be level 20 in 333 days (3/day). (Level 11 only takes a reasonable 2 weeks...) Downside: You will be penniless, unless they pay you to catch the rats, of course. Unfortunately, nowhere in RAW do you actually kill any rats when you knock swarms to zero hit points, so this might still be an issue. You could command them all into tiny cages and make them 1/8 HD rats and then bomb them, but I haven't done the math on that (300 per swarm, might work out better this way).


maouse wrote:
avr wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:
I thought Swarms can't occupy the same space.
swarm subtype wrote:
A swarm can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so.
There's no exception for other swarms there. I think you can actually stack an infinite number of swarms in the same space.

See also the most potent magic item in the game: Pipes of the Sewer, 1150 gp. Take Rich Parents and one other money tree trait in a home game, buy them at first level. Be an Alchemist with 20 Int and Bombs. Summon rat swarms into a pit. 3 a day. Bomb them. You will be level 20 in 333 days (3/day). (Level 11 only takes a reasonable 2 weeks...) Downside: You will be penniless, unless they pay you to catch the rats, of course. Unfortunately, nowhere in RAW do you actually kill any rats when you knock swarms to zero hit points, so this might still be an issue. You could command them all into tiny cages and make them 1/8 HD rats and then bomb them, but I haven't done the math on that (300 per swarm, might work out better this way).

Summoned creatures grant no XP, you have to kill the person summoning them.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Summoned creatures grant no XP, you have to kill the person summoning them.

Pipes of the Sewer dont summon rats, they attract rats from the surrounding area.


LordKailas wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Summoned creatures grant no XP, you have to kill the person summoning them.
Pipes of the Sewer dont summon rats, they attract rats from the surrounding area.

Even easier.

After the first day, there are no more rats in the surrounding area, you have killed them all.

The town thanks you for your generous assistance.


Aren't Diminutive and Fine swarms immune to each other? A swarm of Botflies and a swarm of Poisonous Frogs just kind of sit there and look at each other, both strangely unable to determine how to proceed.


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Volkard Abendroth wrote:

After the first day, there are no more rats in the surrounding area, you have killed them all.

The town thanks you for your generous assistance.

And then, traditionally, refuses to give you the agreed-upon payment.


avr wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

After the first day, there are no more rats in the surrounding area, you have killed them all.

The town thanks you for your generous assistance.

And then, traditionally, refuses to give you the agreed-upon payment.

Of course >:-)


toastedamphibian wrote:
Aren't Diminutive and Fine swarms immune to each other? A swarm of Botflies and a swarm of Poisonous Frogs just kind of sit there and look at each other, both strangely unable to determine how to proceed.

Swarms do area damage, so they aren't immune to eacb other.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Aren't Diminutive and Fine swarms immune to each other? A swarm of Botflies and a swarm of Poisonous Frogs just kind of sit there and look at each other, both strangely unable to determine how to proceed.

I understand the point you were trying to make here, but I honestly think that a swarm of frogs knows exactly what to do when sitting in a a swarm of flies. See, frogs eat flies, very little confusion about what happens next between those two particular swarms.


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avr wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

After the first day, there are no more rats in the surrounding area, you have killed them all.

The town thanks you for your generous assistance.

And then, traditionally, refuses to give you the agreed-upon payment.

That just means more xp, doesn't it? You have bombs, don't you?


VoodistMonk wrote:


I understand the point you were trying to make here,

Really?

Quote:
See, frogs eat flies,

Good to know.

blahpers wrote:
Swarms do area damage, so they aren't immune to eacb other.

And? 0*1.5x is still zero, is it not? I seem to recall a bunch of people claiming swarms to be immune to trample and whirlwind because they are 'weapon damage'.

It's dumb.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
blahpers wrote:
toastedamphibian wrote:
Aren't Diminutive and Fine swarms immune to each other? A swarm of Botflies and a swarm of Poisonous Frogs just kind of sit there and look at each other, both strangely unable to determine how to proceed.
Swarms do area damage, so they aren't immune to eacb other.

Technically swarms damage every creature in the area, but they don't do area damage. They are simply able to attack any number of targets in the area.

RAW it is dubious, RAI I think that two swarm of different creatures will damage each other as long as the size difference between the creature forming the swarm isn't excessive (a swarm of tiny creatures wouldn't be able to affect a swarm of fine creatures, while the swarm of fine creatures will be able to affect the tiny creatures). Essentially, it require GM adjudication after seeing the specifications of the creatures.


right, how could a swarm of flies damage another swarm of flies. They'd just merge into a larger swarm of flies, i'd think. But, the swarm of frogs could eat the swarm of flies, yes, so could a swarm of bats. A swarm of spiders or ants or wasps could rightfully attack a swarm of rats, say. Stinging insects vs frogs could rightfully battle it out. I'd think it'd have to be up to table interpretation.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Technically swarms damage every creature in the area, but they don't do area damage.

I don't care what your Handle Animal score is--that dog won't hunt.


The answer should be; they simply do normal damage to each other. Nothing gets reduced...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/Creature-types/#TOC-Swa rm-Subtype wrote:
Swarm Attack: creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed.

It's just direct, untyped damage as far as I can see


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The moment you summon your swarm of frogs to fight the swarm of mosquitoes the game will slow down, camera zooms in and focus on the epic battle of 300 frogs vs 30.000 mosquitoes.
Frog leads rousing their troops with a motivating croak. Mosquitoes buzzing menacingly in the background. Then lines start to clash mosquitoes start dying in droves but there is simply no end to them. Frogs start dying too (mostly exploding from overfeeding I suppose). An impressive battle playing out with few survivors at the and.

All at the same time your character spends to scratch his but or something like that.


Hjard wrote:

The moment you summon your swarm of frogs to fight the swarm of mosquitoes the game will slow down, camera zooms in and focus on the epic battle of 300 frogs vs 30.000 mosquitoes.

Frog leads rousing their troops with a motivating croak. Mosquitoes buzzing menacingly in the background. Then lines start to clash mosquitoes start dying in droves but there is simply no end to them. Frogs start dying too (mostly exploding from overfeeding I suppose). An impressive battle playing out with few survivors at the and.

All at the same time your character spends to scratch his but or something like that.

I support this. It'll work with mass combat rules then


Hjard wrote:

The moment you summon your swarm of frogs to fight the swarm of mosquitoes the game will slow down, camera zooms in and focus on the epic battle of 300 frogs vs 30.000 mosquitoes.

Frog leads rousing their troops with a motivating croak. Mosquitoes buzzing menacingly in the background. Then lines start to clash mosquitoes start dying in droves but there is simply no end to them. Frogs start dying too (mostly exploding from overfeeding I suppose). An impressive battle playing out with few survivors at the and.

All at the same time your character spends to scratch his but or something like that.

So the failure here is that individual Toads/frogs lack a natural attack. So those poor toads are striking with unarmed strikes at -4 on top of their already lacking melee profile. Can't find rules for individual mosquitoes, but I'm betting they at least have bite attack...


Swarm

Traits wrote:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.

Since swarms don't do weapon damage, the opposing swarm will take full damage.

I like the Raging Rubble spell, as it is great against other swarms, since it has hardness to reduce the opposed swarm's damage.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Let's also remember that we are talking about two swarms that are enemies to one another. The is an unusual circumstance as typical swarms are going against the players. If someone summons a swarm to fight a swarm, it is an interesting tactic.


Interesting true but not exactly unusual. Swarms can cover multiple squares, meaning a strategic summons could wipe out one swarm, and still hit the one how summoned it in the first place.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
thaX wrote:
Let's also remember that we are talking about two swarms that are enemies to one another. The is an unusual circumstance as typical swarms are going against the players. If someone summons a swarm to fight a swarm, it is an interesting tactic.

Unless they are swarms of the same type of creature, they are enemies to each other. Swarm attack all the creatures in the area they occupy. There is no rule that exclude other, different, swarms. It is only when swarm are identical that the don't attack, but then they will not occupy the same square, multiple swarm of different kind occupy different squares, don't stack in one.


Diego Rossi wrote:
thaX wrote:
Let's also remember that we are talking about two swarms that are enemies to one another. The is an unusual circumstance as typical swarms are going against the players. If someone summons a swarm to fight a swarm, it is an interesting tactic.
Unless they are swarms of the same type of creature, they are enemies to each other. Swarm attack all the creatures in the area they occupy. There is no rule that exclude other, different, swarms. It is only when swarm are identical that the don't attack, but then they will not occupy the same square, multiple swarm of different kind occupy different squares, don't stack in one.

Where do you find that rule?

I know of the rule that some larger summons will occupy adjacent 10' squares, but that has no relations to other swarms, even if of the same critters.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Cevah wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
thaX wrote:
Let's also remember that we are talking about two swarms that are enemies to one another. The is an unusual circumstance as typical swarms are going against the players. If someone summons a swarm to fight a swarm, it is an interesting tactic.
Unless they are swarms of the same type of creature, they are enemies to each other. Swarm attack all the creatures in the area they occupy. There is no rule that exclude other, different, swarms. It is only when swarm are identical that the don't attack, but then they will not occupy the same square, multiple swarm of different kind occupy different squares, don't stack in one.

Where do you find that rule?

I know of the rule that some larger summons will occupy adjacent 10' squares, but that has no relations to other swarms, even if of the same critters.

/cevah

Inference from " Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms.", but yes, RAW probably even swarm of the same kind will attack each other.

BTW, even in my original post I should at least have specified "It is only when swarm are identical that the don't attack, unless compelled by magic". Controlled swarms will surely attack any other swarm if ordered.


It's not even unreasonable for two swarms of the same type to attack each other even if both are uncontrolled. There are many species of ant that will attack ants that are the same species just because they "smell wrong", what with those ants being from a different queen.

Sczarni

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
maouse wrote:
avr wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:
I thought Swarms can't occupy the same space.
swarm subtype wrote:
A swarm can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so.
There's no exception for other swarms there. I think you can actually stack an infinite number of swarms in the same space.

See also the most potent magic item in the game: Pipes of the Sewer, 1150 gp. Take Rich Parents and one other money tree trait in a home game, buy them at first level. Be an Alchemist with 20 Int and Bombs. Summon rat swarms into a pit. 3 a day. Bomb them. You will be level 20 in 333 days (3/day). (Level 11 only takes a reasonable 2 weeks...) Downside: You will be penniless, unless they pay you to catch the rats, of course. Unfortunately, nowhere in RAW do you actually kill any rats when you knock swarms to zero hit points, so this might still be an issue. You could command them all into tiny cages and make them 1/8 HD rats and then bomb them, but I haven't done the math on that (300 per swarm, might work out better this way).

Summoned creatures grant no XP, you have to kill the person summoning them.

They are not summoned, they are attracted, my semantic error, sorry.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
thaX wrote:
Let's also remember that we are talking about two swarms that are enemies to one another. The is an unusual circumstance as typical swarms are going against the players. If someone summons a swarm to fight a swarm, it is an interesting tactic.
Unless they are swarms of the same type of creature, they are enemies to each other. Swarm attack all the creatures in the area they occupy. There is no rule that exclude other, different, swarms. It is only when swarm are identical that the don't attack, but then they will not occupy the same square, multiple swarm of different kind occupy different squares, don't stack in one.

Where do you find that rule?

I know of the rule that some larger summons will occupy adjacent 10' squares, but that has no relations to other swarms, even if of the same critters.

/cevah

Inference from " Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms.", but yes, RAW probably even swarm of the same kind will attack each other.

BTW, even in my original post I should at least have specified "It is only when swarm are identical that the don't attack, unless compelled by magic". Controlled swarms will surely attack any other swarm if ordered.

Found the text: PRD

Swarm Subtype wrote:
Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.

This means that the mechanics of playing a swarm is represented by contiguous squares. It does not mean it is contiguous swarms. The latter would be represented by stats for each swarm, and since each swarm has less HD, it would do less damage.

I am aware of no rule for combining two swarms into one. So if two swarms of the same creature bump into each other, they are still separate swarms.

I am aware of no rule saying swarms of like creatures won't attack each other. Yet you say they won't attack. Please cite the rule.

Summoned creatures, even swarms, instinctively attack the caster's enemies. This is part of the summoning spell's effect. As an opposing swarm is certainly an enemy, the summoned swarm will attack it, even if it is the same type of creature.

/cevah

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