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Well, here’s the scoop on my Fighter adjustment idea. First off, this is a direct attempt to amp up the fighter’s role in the game, no so much in “combat effectiveness” but in a way to sort of turn the base fighter class into the “one stop shop” in order to craft just about ANY pure-fighter concept. As it stands, they are too focused purely upon weapons and armor, IMO. So, I’m setting this idea forward: fighters should have additional features beyond just feats and/or weapon or armor training. These are good additions to the fighter, but, IMO, it still leaves the fighter out in the cold vs. the things the other melee-types (not to mention full casters) can accomplish. Paladins and rangers cast, along with a number of other options at their disposal, and I’m currently revising the Barbarian towards a higher damage output and toughness/resilience boost for it’s concept and “niche” – all bring more “class specific” features to the table than the Fighter does. Rather than compete in a “miracles abound” fashion (ie: magic) I’ve decided to just add some layers and options to open up different styles of fighters and combat that, generally, isn’t really focused upon in the base game mechanics. Some other options, rather than focusing upon what isn’t possible, just emphasize other elements that are generally overlooked entirely. Finally, I also intended for any one of these features to become things that would make any fighter using them to be better than ANY other class that attempts the same style (although perhaps not barbarians in damage dealing – that’s a goal anyway).
Ok, so design philosophy time:
1) For lack of a better term, I’m just going to call these things “fighter features” for now. Ultra generic, but maybe we can get a better idea from the ether somehow … suggestions are welcome.
2) Every option needs to be something that automatically offers some sort of “scaling” effect with additional fighter levels. This is to both encourage and reward sticking with the class, and to discourage “dipping” into the class.
3) These features should be, in general, more powerful than Feats. Any given fighter can only get 7 of these and they are class-specific to him, and him alone. Compared to many, many other class features, much of this is rather tame, IMO, and is fully fair to gain only 7 of these.
4) Open up even more variety to further differentiate Fighter A from Fighter B, and so on.
Note: This is intended to begin at level 1 and add an additional style feature at every 3 levels thereafter, topping off at 7 style abilities total by level 18. So, the existing framework of the PF fighter is left alone with “Fighter Feature” being added to the abilities column at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18.
Format-wise, because there are so many options (see design point #4) I’ve sort of grouped them with bolded heading. There are MANY options here, so I’ll probably spread it out into multiple posts in this thread initially.
Original Feature from PF core
1) Bravery = functions exactly as described in the standard entry.
{Thought here is to simply remove this as a “given” bonus, and add it into the mix as a *possible* bonus – one of many to help define the fighter a bit more. I’m not totally sold on this, but it seems to fit in general to make this more an option. At the same time, it’s not like they got many bonuses in the first place, so taking it away *could* be a weakening of the class, or a balance point – depending on how you see it. For me, I’m going with “balancing point” right now.}
Swashbuckler/Smart Fighting Features
2) Agile Fighter = add reflex save bonus as a Dodge bonus to AC. Max added value = ½ current Fighter class level. This dodge bonus is usable only while the character is unencumbered, wearing no more than light armor, and not using a shield larger than a buckler.
{Thought here = to enable a lightly armored fighter to compete with the armor-based nature of D&D in that you need higher/heavier Armor to get your AC higher. This allows the lightly armored warrior concept to function just by using the fighter base class.}
3) Exploit Weakness = use a swift action to "study" your target and make a Combat Value check with Int modifier added to nml value. DC = target's CMB value. If the check meets or exceeds target value, you gain a bonus to hit your opponent equal to 1+ 1/6 fighter levels + Int bonus (if any) {minimum value of +1 to hit if successful}.
{Thought here = to allow a *smart* fighter build to be worthwhile, and allow his intelligence to factor into his combat as well. At highest level, the base bonus will amount to a +4 addition to hit [before factoring in Int bonus]. Bonus type is up in the air, maybe a whole new bonus called “style bonus” or something, or a “circumstance” bonus? It’s not morale, nor designed to replace it. It is something unique and only fighters can bring it to the table, IMO.}
4) Style Analysis = same as Exploit Weakness, but the bonus is applied to AC vs. To Hit value.
{Thought here = as exploit weakness. In this case it revolves around boosting your own defenses through use of your intellect, study, and experience. +4 is also the most amount of base bonus AC granted before Int bonus is factored. This bonus type can fall either under this new “style bonus” or be a “dodge bonus” either case works just fine, I think.}
5) Anatomical Precision = same as Exploit Weakness, but the bonus is applied to Dmg of any successful attack. Any bonus damage is precision-based in nature.
{Thought here = as exploit weakness, but the bonus is applied to damage-dealing. It is precision-based damage in this case. Again, max base bonus here is +4 before Int bonus is factored in.}
6) Talented = fighter gains more sp/level than normally indicated. Increase the sp from 2+ Int modifier/level to 4+Int modifier/level. In addition, this grants any 3 skills to be added to the fighter’s class skill list.
{Thought here = a way to encourage the *smart fighter* again, and show it through skill selection and points. It automatically scales with level, and is immediately useful. I think this should be a level 1 ONLY thing to be selected at character creation, as if it comes into play after, it makes a mess of the class build.}
Leader of Men Features
7) Plan of Action = Make a full round action to grant a “style” or “circumstance” bonus to hit, damage and AC for everyone in the party (including the fighter himself) based on the fighter's class level at a rate of + 1 per 5 fighter levels (minimum 1). This bonus lasts for a number of rounds = to 1/4 the current Fighter level of the character (minimum of 1) + Cha modifier (if any). This can only be used 1+1/6 fighter class levels the character has.
{Thought here = this is the Captain America feature. It’s the one that lets the fighter be a good leader – he can make a plan for his team, and grant them all bonuses. It’s not a morale bonus like a bard, but it’s a tactical bonus, granted by the fighter’s ability to coordinate the group’s efforts. It lets a fighter contribute to everyone for a change, and act like a powerful buffer if he uses one round to “prep” his team, so to speak. This can grant a max bonus of +6 by level 20, and last for 6 rounds as a base before Cha is factored. He can also only use it 4 times per day by max level}
8) Gift of Gab = All Cha-based skills (except Use Magic Device) become class skills for the Fighter.
{Thought here = to allow more sociability to enter into the class. He can now act, reasonably, as the party “face” if so desired.}
Defensive Combat Features - General
9) Unyielding Defense = ignore the multiplied damage from an incoming critical hit. It negates the critical effect a certain amount of times per any given day. This also negates the effects of critical activation features on the enemy’s weapons, if present. It can be used a maximum of 1 + 1/8 full Fighter levels the character attains. {max of 3 negations/day by level 16}
{Thought here = essentially just a way to emphasize skill and training in order to minimize inordinate amounts of damage. It has only a few applications daily, and is very situational in use.}
10) Retributive Strike = fighter can elect to make an AoO immediately as a reactive action to any target that successfully strikes and damages him. This can only be used IF a strike is successful and IF it deal damage. The retributive strike counts against the Fighter’s AoO limit for the round.
{Thought here = a very, very defensive feature. It’s tied to AoO’s as a limiting factor, and doesn’t really gain any additional use with level (it’s already rather powerful, IMO). It should probably have a minimum level of some sort, though …}
11) Strong Will = the fighter is unusually strong of will and resolve given the average. As such, he now follows the “good” save progression for his will saves. Adjust all save values accordingly from this point forward.
{Thought here = a way to bump up resiliency overall to harken back to the 2e days when fighter’s/martial types had the best saving throws. It’s not built into the class, but I figured I’d put it in as an option to bring back that feel.}
12) Superior Reflexes = the fighter is simply faster, and more reactive than he would otherwise appear to be. As such, he now follows the “good” save progression for his reflex saves. Adjust all save values accordingly from this point forward.
{Thought here = much like Strong Will, it’s a way to bump up resiliency overall to harken back to the 2e days when fighter’s/martial types had the best saving throws. It’s not built into the class, but I figured I’d put it in as an option to bring back that feel.}
13) Punishing Opportunist = any AoO that strikes automatically lands as a critical strike. In addition, the fighter gains 1 additional AoO for each 6 fighter levels he has (minimum of +1, max of +3 at 18th level).
{Thought here = another one that is simply granting an otherwise impossible bonus. It needs a minimum level I’d imagine, though. Not sure where to place it though}
14) Shield Defender = ability to add shield bonus to any adjacent character {max of 1/2 fighter level} while maintaining the bonus for him/herself (except for a buckler), 8th = ability to grant soft cover to self and adjacent allies. Can provide this to adjacent allies at a ratio of 1/6 fighter levels (minimum of 1). 12th = ability to interpose self and take hit for adjacent character 1/round. {rough - needs refinement}
{Thought here = a way to give some extra options that ONLY fighter-shield users can have. Basically, a sort of “body-guard” like effect in the above. It’s a very, VERY rough draft, so yeah – any help in refinement is welcome.}
15) Fortified Defender = use the weight of armor to advantage in combat and use armor to absorb and deflect damage. Not mobile while using this, the fighter sacrifices all movement, for the round as a move action, and gains a DR value while slowed = to base Armor bonus (limited by 1/2 of Fighter level). This DR will not stack/add with any other type of DR effect from feats, or class abilities, but can be combined with armor material qualities and the like. While it is active – only the most powerful effect will function. (ie: other DR types, if more powerful, will be used instead, and if less powerful, will be ignored.)
{Thought here = to create a sort of “turtle” effect on a fighter for a combat style. Like all of these, it gets better with dedication to Fighter levels. It can’t stack with the level 19 ability as it’s essentially something similar in nature, and balance-wise it’s simply too much, especially with trying to amp up the Barbarian as well – see other threads on that.}
Offensive Combat Features
16) Mounted Expertise = fighter gains a +1 to hit, damage, and ride checks while mounted for 1 + every 6 full fighter levels he has (minimum 1, maximum of +4 at 18th level).
{Thought here = a way to make a fighting, mounted warrior even better in focus and dedication w/out resorting to PrC’s.}
17) Saddle-Born = gain a bonus to Ride checks = to 1/3 fighter level. Reduce ride check penalties by 1 for every 4 full fighter levels (minimum of 1, max of 5), and the ability to “take 10” on any ride check.
{Thought here = to give a new, but different bonus to mounted types beyond just to hit and damage. Ability to “take 10” is pretty solid, IMO, and reduced penalties from actions while mounted would again prove superiority here to a mount-dedicated fighter. It could probably use a minimum level requisite, but I’m not sure at what level it would fit best.}
18) Hindering Striker = as a full round action, the fighter can make a CMB check against a target in order to slow it's movement rating. If successful, the target's movement is reduced by 1/3 {2/3rd mv rating}. This lasts for a number of rounds = to 1 + 1/3 fighter levels. the activation time changes as level progresses. At level 6 it becomes a standard action, at level 12 a move action, and by level 18 as any kind of attack action (even one of the attacks of a full attack). At level 8, you can reduce the target's movement to 1/2, and by level 16, you can reduce the movment of the target to 1/3. As an additional option, by adding 5 to the CMD value of the target you can neutralize that form of movment entirely for the duration. Each time this is used, a particular mode of locomotion must be chosen (walk/run; flight; swim; burrowing; etc)
{Thought here = a fighter specifically dedicated to neutralize movement advantages of various enemies. I’m not sure my duration is the best, it *should* probably be shorter, but still level dependent to mesh with the design goals}
19) Momentum Swing = use the weight of armor to enhance weapon damage in combat. Add armor bonus to damage inflicted with any weapon while using this style (limited to 1/3 of Fighter level).
{Thought here = create a damage boost based around maximizing total momentum force brought to bear. Think “1-inch punch” Bruce Lee style, only applied to every swing of the weapon in-hand. The idea is that your style fully brings to bear every bit of your mass and momentum to bear.}
20) Offensive Flurry = fighting style is constantly pressing the defender. One opponent takes a -1 to hit, damage, and saves against the fighter for every 6 fighter levels (minimum 1) the fighter has, as long as the target is engaging the fighter.
{Thought here = to have a fast and furious style that is simply difficult to predict and/or defend against. It works only on 1 target at any given time, and works only as long as the fighter is focused upon that one target. It caps out as a -3 penalty, but only regarding the fighter with this feature active.}
21) Maneuver Mastery = fighter never provokes an AoO for any combat maneuvers attempted. In addition, he gains a +1 bonus to any maneuver checks, and it increases for every full 4 levels of Fighter he has. This is in addition to any bonus granted from Feats (if applicable).
{Thought here = a “schooled” fighter that knows everything about the special moves and options to combat. This maneuver bonus would certainly stack with any other bonuses from feats, and it caps out at a +6 overall bonus by level 20. Any fighter that takes this will be the best at maneuvers in-combat.)
Magic Based Features
22) Disciplined Mind = fighter has learned to cut through the noise and chaos of all distractions, including the clouding effects of magic. Those that take this ability are able to fight off the effects of magic as it attempts to work on them. They are too disciplined and dedicated to succumb easily. This is only a temporary delay, and only lasts for 1 round + 1 round/6 full fighter levels. After this time, the spell effect will come off in full force. On the first round of any on-going effect, the fighter is under the staggered condition. On the second (and subsequent rounds of the fighter is of sufficient level) the fighter acts as if under the dazzled condition. If the spell duration expires, is neutralized, or the caster is rendered unconscious, then the spell is lost/resisted by the fighter. If not, then as soon as the fighter’s window expires, so does his resistance to the spell – it will fully take effect and control at that time.
{Thought here = a unique and *slightly* different way to grant a resistance to magic effects of control. It doesn’t stop any effect outright, only delays it for a few rounds. At most, by level 18 it’ll delay an effect by 4 rounds. My inspiration here was the stories and movies where you see/read the hero is desperately struggling to resist some magical onslaught and is somehow able to *barely* muscle through it to get there. Sometimes they manage to fight it off, and sometimes they succumb, but in either case there’s always a sense of passing time and the fighter is fighting the effect off as best he can until it’s just too much to fight off, or the effect (wizard or whatever) is defeated by another means. It’s like a delay-effect, IMO, in tone/flavor.}
23) Unbridled Might = ability to burst through/attack magical barriers as though they were solid. Must make a Str-check vs. DC = 30 to break the effects. Lower the dc by 2 for every 4 Fighter levels accumulated (DC 20 by level 20). works on things like force cage, otilukes sphere, etc.
{Thought here = to grant one genuinely “magical” power in this list of options. The idea of “break through the barrier” seems an interesting one, as most force-like effects will effectively make a fighter totally useless. I thought the most simple way to manage such a thing would be to simply set DC’s in some way. It’s not supposed to be something easy, but it should be possible. I’m not sold on any #’s above for this ability, so totally open for revision and thoughts here. If you need a rationalization, they’ve studied magic in part of their combat training and have learned to channel some vital energies of their own into a swing that can cleave through solid-effect magical constructs.
Miscellaneous Features
24) Astonishing Prowess = amazing and legendary gift in a particular skill or set of skills. Choose an ability (str, dex, etc) and all skills involving this ability can receive a bonus on a particular check to accomplish some particular task. The bonus is equal to the current fighter level.
{Thought here = Think Beowulf swimming for days in the ocean - this would be that sort of a thing ... also very rough, so feedback needed. The idea, at its core, is to allow for LEGENDARY feats of skill from a fighter.}
25) Initiative Mastery = as a swift action, you can re-roll any initiative result for better placement in the round order. In addition, the Fighter gains a +1 bonus to initiative with an additional +1/4 fighter levels he has.
{Thought here = to allow for just “faster” reactions in general than even say, Dexterity alone, or Improved Initiative would indicate. Overtime, the bonus increases to +6, so it’s better than Improved Initiative at level 20 and 16, and equals it by 12. Of course, effects can also stack just fine, meaning that Improved Initiative still has a place in utility as a feat for fighters in the earlier levels, and later in levels – if used with this feature, it becomes even more of an “ace in the hole” so to speak. I’m thinking about changing the “re-roll” mechanic to a fiat of swap order in init w/the immediate person above you or something like that.}
Heh, I'm way ahead of you. My fighter re-write is here.
Warning: This fighter, at high levels, holds his own with full casters. I've rewritten the ranger and barbarian as well, with equivalent power levels. In my homebrew campaign, martial NPCs make equally scary BBEG villains as caster NPCs, and martial PCs don't become luggage handlers after 14th level. If you run campaigns in which casters dominate high-level play and you like it that way, then tone down the abilities shown.
Wow! That's ... WAY more of a power boost than I intended. Neat ideas, but powerful in the extreme!
Any thoughts on this revision I have going here, though?
Any thoughts on this revision I have going here, though?
Well, yes, the point of direcdting you there was to show you that a fighter with a menu of "fighter talents" has been done and is currently being playtested. You can use your own ideas in place of the talents I've outlined, for example, and still end up with a useful, modular fighter that covers what you're going for.
You've categorized the options into what amount to fighter sub-classes, which is another way of doing it; the advantange is that a player can just pick a theme and then go with it, at the expense of some of the ability to customize. But that's splitting hairs; the main point is that you and I had basically the same idea, in terms of giving fighters some meaningful options.
powerful in the extreme!
No more so than a well-played full caster, once you get into the upper levels -- but let's let that go, lest we get sucked into that whole discussion again!
powerful in the extreme!No more so than a well-played full caster, once you get into the upper levels -- but let's let that go, lest we get sucked into that whole discussion again!
Absolutely - I didn't mean anything bad by that - just that it was much more dialed up than my attempt. I'd say that yours is maybe more in-line with 4e's design in that regard. Kind of just changing the power source on a class by class basis mostly.
I wasn't trying to dial it up that much, but just get more into just "what" a fighter could be.
Edit: Interesting ... on the timing, though. I'd actually started my own revisions on a different site, but in November my development started up(2009).
On the talents and triumph points - I'd rather not bog things down with resource tracking like that, but leveled improvement with dedication to class is more my paradigm approach. Some of the effects go a bit further, IMO, than I'd go with it, and some are just a difference of mechanical implementation.
I do like what you have going as a way to challenge magic-types on equal footing, but too much of it, IMO, changes from what I'm comfortable with granting a fighter outright.
My organization was centered around ease of presentation just now before I posted it up. Before that - it was just a mess of notes all sort of posted, but not grouped or organized.
I wasn't trying to dial it up that much, but just get more into just "what" a fighter could be.
Understood -- and I think you've got a good start in that regard. Like I said, the point is not what the specific talents/abilities are, but how to structure them into the class: as open-ended talents from a big pool as I've done, or as theme-dependent lists, which seems to be the direction you're headed. (The much-maligned Book of Nine Swords used yet a third option, essentially turning fighter talents into spells lists.) Any of those 3 ways works, it just depends on how strictly you want the classes to be defined.
Understood -- and I think you've got a good start in that regard. Like I said, the point is not what the specific talents/abilities are, but how to structure them into the class: as open-ended talents from a big pool as I've done, or as theme-dependent lists, which seems to be the direction you're headed. (The much-maligned Book of Nine Swords used yet a third option, essentially turning fighter talents into spells lists.) Any of those 3 ways works, it just depends on how strictly you want the classes to be defined.
Yeah ... Bo9S just made my eyes bleed (*already averse to massive spell lists in the first place*), but I thought the premise was interesting.
I saw the PF fighter and thought it was neat, and an improvement, but still left many things I'd want to use a fighter to create an impossibility using just the fighter to do it.
I'd say that I'm closer to "talent list" that is level dependent in the majority of the effects they provide. The "theme" thing is used mostly for (a) idea-mining (what does X kind of fighter type use/bring to the table?), and (b) organization for presentation.
The way my build is set up, anyone can take ANY of the features at any time (minus the ones that will end up with level requisites, at which point, only levels in fighter restrict it). Nothing says you *must* take them, but the organization is more of "you'll probably look here for concept X" rather than a prescribed "do this, or else!" format.
For my $, I'd think picking and choosing whatever makes sense for the character concept and build would come first, though I guess someone could look at it w/blinders on and think they needed every thing presented.
Note that they only get 7 of the 25 things listed so far, and I'm still looking to add more to address other combat options. For instance, there's nothing there currently for primarily ranged-types. I ... just haven't had much in mind for them, but I'm working that angle now, too.
*bump*
Any other reactions or thoughts here?
I would make sure #'s 10 and 13 do not work together. Too much can be done on a critical hit with the Crit tree and magical enhancements to allow a fighter to get them off (possibly) multiple times every round. Plus a fighter essentially becomes the last opponent someone attacks in melee, reversing his role as 'tank' in a party.
Ok - I can see that. Maybe something like "can not be used in conjunction with X class feature if selected" yes?
I think the extra AoO's piece should be usable in conjunction, though. Just not the "automatic critical" part of #13 - that's a bit much, you're right.
#10 needed a minimum level buy-in, though ... maybe ... like 15? It's awfully potent, IMO, to just AoO anyone that actually manages to hit you. Maybe it needs a limited use/round instead of a high level req?