First Edition Replay when Second Edition Launches


Pathfinder Society Playtest

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Tonya Woldridge wrote:

This thread is for the discussion of what role replay will have in the first edition campaign when Pathfinder Society second edition launches in 2019.

For more context to this thread, visit Pathfinder Society 2: Replay, Rewards, and Rebuilds and Pathfinder Playtest and Pathfinder Society FAQ.

I've always championed and will maintain for unlimited replay to a degree. Just keep it to one replay per character.

Liberty's Edge ****

Before PF2 was announced, I was already in favor of scenarios becoming replayable after 10 years, which would mean season 0 would become evergreen this year, and season 1 after GenCon 2019, etc.

With PF2 coming out, I'd say it's not even worth tracking 11 years of rollouts for replay, and everything should just change to replayable at the end of season 10. I don't believe any of other the options presented in the original list are even worth putting effort towards.

The Exchange *****

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Sorry, I do not feel that Unlimited Replay will be beneficial for PFS1e. In fact, IMHO, it would be one of the things that would kill the Campaign off more quickly.

I know a large number of people who have played less than 20% of the available scenarios. I do not want to push them into playing in someone elses Ground Hog Day. I would like them to be able to experience the best possible Campaign I can give them. One the most like I have had in my 10+ years of playing PFS...

I very much vote AGAINST changing the replay rules to open all scenarios to Replay as soon as Season 10 finishes.

The Exchange *****

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I went to GenCon this year and played to much PFS (burn out!) ... mostly trying to play low Tier, but I got hooked into a couple mid level games (Tier 3-7/5-9).

And I noticed something odd. At most of my tables above level 3, 1/3 to 1/2 the players were New to PFS. Playing Iconics. People who were playing the Campaign for the first time - even if they had played PF or other RPGs before, they were just trying out Society Play. I gave out a bunch of "Welcome to PFS" boons (then I notice that there was a stack over with the new Faction Cards). And at each of my low level tables, at least half the players were new. There were a LOT of people trying PFS for the first time.

These people are all going to look at playing PFS1e in the future. Do we really want to tell them "Sorry, you guys are joining too late. We're changing the rules, 'cause everyone know PFS1e is done and needs to die off."?

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nosig wrote:
Do we really want to tell them "Sorry, you guys are joining too late. We're changing the rules, 'cause everyone know PFS1e is done and needs to die off."?

I don't see that as the statement we'd be making to new players.

It's more like, "Welcome to PFS Local. Oh, you played that at a Con already? You can't play today," becomes, "Welcome to PFS Local. Oh, you played that at a Con already? Please don't spoil anything for those that haven't played it."

Also, the VOs are setting the schedule here, so I don't see why we would all of the sudden start playing Library of the Lion over and over and over just because we could (no matter how fun it is).

An advantage of unlimited replays could be that people could build campaigns out of scenarios and not have to worry about excluding people who happened to play a handful of scenarios before.

The Exchange *****

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Blake's Tiger wrote:
nosig wrote:
Do we really want to tell them "Sorry, you guys are joining too late. We're changing the rules, 'cause everyone know PFS1e is done and needs to die off."?

I don't see that as the statement we'd be making to new players.

It's more like, "Welcome to PFS Local. Oh, you played that at a Con already? You can't play today," becomes, "Welcome to PFS Local. Oh, you played that at a Con already? Please don't spoil anything for those that haven't played it."

Also, the VOs are setting the schedule here, so I don't see why we would all of the sudden start playing Library of the Lion over and over and over just because we could (no matter how fun it is).

An advantage of unlimited replays could be that people could build campaigns out of scenarios and not have to worry about excluding people who happened to play a handful of scenarios before.

well... clearly we have different experiences. And expectations of what Unlimited Replay will result in. But that's what most of the rest of this thread has covered...

The Exchange *****

nosig wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Just let pathfinder 1e die before we've even SEEN pathfinder 2e seems like a really really bad plan.

And yes. That is absolutely what no change in the replay rules means. The minimal effective population of pathfinder geeks is a Table. It doesn't matter if people have games left they can play you need the same group of geeks who can all play the same game together at the same time.

actually, I think this is a matter of perspective.

From my perspective (and the perspective of many of us "ol'guys"), I have played almost everything. I jumped into playing Mods a while back because I was down to less than a dozen scenarios... now I have about half of Season 9 I can play yet, and some APs ... and maybe a few more Mods... then I'm out of content (except for Judge Star Replays...). So yeah, without "new" content or some other form of Replays, I am limited to just running games (something I have also been doing a lot lately).

I've been running games up at the local venue for several new players. Some of them play 2 or 3 times a week, most get one game in a week... so from their perspective they have years of content left. So, it seems to me, that from their perspective they have just started into a Campaign that I have played for ...gods... to many years.

Yeah... anyway,... for those 4 new players the campaign is "fresh" and has years of life - unless "we" cut it out from under them. Change it enough so that it isn't PFS1e any more... and I sort of worry about that. Two or three of them have expressed the interest in running scenarios...

It's sort of making me feel like I/we are being a bit selfish. "I got my play in, so we can blow the playground up now - it's over once I'm out of here."

Just figured I'd float this one back to the top.

I am for changing the current rules as little as necessary to keep this campaign (PFS1e) alive.

Currently we have a restricted Replay Policy.

Unlimited Replay would be a MASSIVE change to that policy. One that (IMHO) would likely badly damage PFS1e.

So... some sort of change to the Replay rules MIGHT be needed (are for players like BNW), but I would like it to be a minor change, that does a minimum amount of damage necessary to the existing Campaign.

"If it's not broke - don't 'fix' it till it is".

Liberty's Edge **

Hi,

I have been playing PFS for approx. 6 years now. It is my hobby and I play a lot for the enjoyment of the game, as I presume everyone does. In addition, I have read many of the the counterpoints to the proposal of unlimited re-plays and I see their logic against it.

Nevertheless, regardless of the calculations of how many hours there are in total for all of the scenarios, I have hit a wall with finding scenarios to play. The fact is, no one has unlimited money to buy all the scenarios and the same ones are being offered time- and-time again.
I know some of them are being given out free-of-charge, but I still see the same ones being scheduled. And yes, I have spoken to the Venture Captain in my area, but it is what it is.

In addition, I don't know why hard rules for replay cannot be instituted. For example, if you are replaying a scenario, and you spoil the game for others, then you will be asked to leave the table and the chronicle sheet will be not be given out to that player. Will it cause tension, probably, but after a few times of that, people will get the point.

I know that 5e, the Adventure League, has unlimited replays; or more precisely, one replay per character. I don't play that game system, but I know people that do. According to them, their might be some issues that arise from time-to-time, but on the whole, it has gone pretty well. In fact, they really enjoy always having a game to play.

Also, to the argument that unlimited replays (at least one per character) monopolizing tables from regular players, and discourages new players to sit at the table, then change the table registration rules. For example, reserve 3 seats for new players and 3 for people replaying the scenario. Everyone in a particular gaming area knows who always plays, and I don't think it would be hard to regulate this rule.

In any case, I have given my 2 cents. I really like the game and I am excited on how I see PF2 is being written...more challenge from monsters, less over the top characters that end the fight by the second initiative order, and maybe more focus on role-playing that encourages team play over how much damage you can do in one round.

In the end, it is a game to have fun in, and something that I think, done well, promotes camaraderie and a sense of community.

Silver Crusade *** Venture-Captain, Nevada—Las Vegas aka Darth Bass

I am all for all the options presented so far, as each of them has some very interesting ideas! ESPECIALLY number 4.

Number 4 is dangerous if left unchecked, but Living Greyhawk was a perfect example of how that worked. For example retiring scenarios after a set period of time or even making certain adventures regional.

Grand Lodge

This coming from the perspective of someone who joined in to PFS relatively late (partway through Season 6) and hence still has a lot of scenarios to replay especially from early years, but much of my local lodge is more experienced and has been playing from day 1:

I would like to see the option to replay everything, on the basis that even with some new blood, we'd need some of the more experienced players to fill in tables. I can also see the potential problems with item hunting of unlimited replays. I'd rather see something along the line of time gates. You can only replay a scenario for free after you haven't played it for X years. This will mean you always have scenarios to play, even if you've played them all (unless you're a crazy person who manages to play all 11 years of scenarios in 1-2 years), but can't pick and choose. Admittedly probably a pain to track and manage, though.

Another option I could see is replay if there are new people at the table. So you couldn't have a free replay table of 100% new people, but if you have, say, 2 newbies, vets could fill in to make it a complete table. Like above, this is coming more from the perspective of playing than managing.

Or perhaps free replay but you have to play 20/30/etc games between replays?

TL/DR: I want to see a way to cycle replays so that vets can help fill in open seats at tables with people wanting to play scenarios for the first time, but with some kind of automatic gating system (be it time, games played, etc) to prevent the item and scenario farming problem you see with raw open replay.

***

I haven't read all 15 pages of this thread, but here's an idea I haven't seen.

Create rules that will make it possible for running 3rd party and homebrew content.

Here's how it would work.

-Pick a tier
-1 xp per scenario
-create parameters for how prestige points are earned.
-create a set of about 20 generic boons that gms can choose to award, and limit it to 2 boons per scenario. There should be fewer boons for non-offical content.
-Give an appropriate amount for each tier of magic items that can be put on the chronicle sheet.
-release a homebrew chronicle sheet for each tier, both in printable pdf and fillable word doc format.
-scenarios will be reported as "Tier x-x homebrew", with categories of 1-5, 3-7, 5-7, 7-11 and 12-15.

The point is...people will want to keep playing pfs 1st edition. Paizo will be moving forward with the new campaign, and cannot devote resources to creating new content for a previous edition. So turn it over to the fans and create the structure for tracking progress. It hurts no one.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, France—Paris

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3pp and homebrew is what I don't want to appear in a standardized setup, on a casus belli level. If it should happen, it should be vetted by the leadership only, not by everyone.

Silver Crusade ** Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP aka Redelia

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No one has answered the claim I made several pages ago that unless we go to unlimited replay, the campaign will eventually die. We could debate if it will be 5 years or 10 years, but people will run out of content. I believe there are enough scenarios out there that the campaign could still be thriving in 20 years if almost unlimited replay is allowed. What limits do I want?

1. Only one chronicle for a specific adventure on a character
2. Replay requires GM permission. This means that someone can only mess up one scenario because GMs won't allow them to replay any more after that.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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If the campaign had something like a gregorian calander of renewal (one season renews every year in sequence in perpetuity) it would theoretically be immortal.

Silver Crusade ** Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP aka Redelia

That would be an option, yes. However, they would need to declare that is how it would always work, not just declare that is how it is working this year, or for one cycle. Otherwise the odds are just too great that sometime later someone would forget or decide not to.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Christine Bussman wrote:
No one has answered the claim I made several pages ago that unless we go to unlimited replay, the campaign will eventually die.

I honestly feel that it will die either way. It's just a question of how.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Christine Bussman wrote:
No one has answered the claim I made several pages ago that unless we go to unlimited replay, the campaign will eventually die.
I honestly feel that it will die either way. It's just a question of how.

whether it's pushed off a cliff or not matters a lot

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

We obviously disagree on which option equates to being pushed.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
We obviously disagree on which option equates to being pushed.

Dunno. I lost my flow chart.

.

I absolutely can't see how the campaign would die faster if year 11 was just year one and year 12 was year 2 etc.

***** ⦵⦵

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cyrus007 wrote:

I know that 5e, the Adventure League, has unlimited replays; or more precisely, one replay per character. I don't play that game system, but I know people that do. According to them, their might be some issues that arise from time-to-time, but on the whole, it has gone pretty well. In fact, they really enjoy always having a game to play.

I've been dipping into Adventures League a bit recently. What I find the main problem with this system is they have huge problems getting enough GM's to meet player demand. I've seen many tables get cancelled due to no GM's being available. I've seen entire slots at a convention 8 tables without a single GM signed up to run any of the 8 tables.

The Exchange *****

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Christine Bussman wrote:

No one has answered the claim I made several pages ago that unless we go to unlimited replay, the campaign will eventually die. We could debate if it will be 5 years or 10 years, but people will run out of content. I believe there are enough scenarios out there that the campaign could still be thriving in 20 years if almost unlimited replay is allowed. What limits do I want?

1. Only one chronicle for a specific adventure on a character
2. Replay requires GM permission. This means that someone can only mess up one scenario because GMs won't allow them to replay any more after that.

well... the campaign will eventually die...

But then all things die.

Perhaps the better question would be...Can the campaign add in new players/judges faster than they loss players/judges due to burn-out/attrition/life-changes/"running out of things to play"? If it can, then it could continue well past the time we individually are involved.

Of course this means that everyone currently involved in the campaign (yeah, even me) will ultimately NOT be involved... due to some form of burn-out/attrition/life-changes/"running out of things to play". I mean other than in a historical sense. ("Yeah, I remember playing PFS back in my youth... I got in 13 years of play before hitting "the wall"...)

And a lot of us are not happy with that... but I am not sure how I want to "fix" this problem... Which of the paths to proceed suggested in this thread would be the most fun to play? I do think that a number of the suggestions would badly damage (if not destroy) the campaign, and I would like to avoid those.

I like what we have now. I don't want to destroy it (for myself or anyone with years of play time left) trying to "fix" it so that I can play longer. If I did that, I think it would really bother me. Knowing I (even in a small way) helped kill something that had given me so much fun over the years. Knowing I helped take that fun away from everyone coming after me...

The Exchange *****

ping!

just moving this back into the spotlight some, hoping to create a bit more discussion on the topic.

Or are we "mined out" of ideas?

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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There really aren't any new ideas, just rehashing from the perspective of so far unheard from players. Since Paizo has moved to a survey model for much of its feedback regarding 2E and PFS2, at this point, I think the best thing to do is simply add replay as a topic for a weekly blog with a survey. At least then they'll have some data to actually look at.

Personally, I think Paizo has their mind made up about replay based on their own bias (supported by history and anecdotal experience) and a survey won't have much impact, but at least it would give them the opportunity to hear from us in a meaningful way outside of a too-oft argumentative thread and who knows, if the vote is overwhelmingly in favor of expanded replay, maybe those asking for it will get what they want.

Sovereign Court *

I would think Paizo's not going to care what happens to the 1E campaign after 2E launch, and would be surprised if they even bother to keep track of 1E games on their website. It will quickly devolve to Wild West status. All these arguments are pointless. Just like no one plays 4E anymore, PFS 1E will quickly die off as GMs prefer to run 2E. The people who want to stay with 1E seem to be mostly players. Unless some of them step up who haven't before to run I don't see enough GMs to run games for them. Paizo will want to sell it's 2E stuff, and will encourage the VOs and VCs to focus on them. It would be foolish not to. I think defacto it will become unlimited as there will be no one remaining who cares enough to police it, and will be a moot point as there will be rare to find a public 1E game anyway.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Um, no. We've been instructed to support the games our players want to play. And I want to continue running 1E.

*

^Same. Replay discussions aside, I will continue to run 1E for as long as people want to (and can) play it and I will play it for as long as I can and as long as there are GMs willing to run it.


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I looked at PF2, and I don't think I want to play it. I can't build a character I want to play and the process of trying is just painful.

Playing PF1 and SF both still appeal. Hence, I have no interest in transitioning to PFS2.

I also haven't played most of the PFS scenarios out there, so there's plenty for me still to play (or run, even - I have two seasons of things I could in theory run but don't want to because I haven't played them yet). However, most of the people I know who I might play PF1 with have played PFS a lot more than I have. Hence finding a scenario that they can play, and I can play, and someone else will GM is not necessarily easy.

There's also an effect where the pool of people I know locally who might want to play PFS is small enough that a person running a particular scenario reduces the remaining pool to below viable table size. This is partly a function of me not knowing very many people, but that isn't going to change. If one of the people who had played a scenario could replay it, that would make a lot more potential tables viable. Also, I trust my friends not to spoiler it.

From my perspective then, it seems that the more replay options are enabled, the easier it would be to play and run things.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
I can't build a character I want to play

This comes up often and to some extent I think it’s an unfair assessment. The Playtest arguably offers more character options than the original CRB did and obviously it’s not going to offer the breadth of options that 1E does after a decade of product. If you just don’t like the system, that’s fine, but we can’t directly contrast the players options of the two systems and expect the Playtest to reasonably compare.


Bob Jonquet wrote:
This comes up often and to some extent I think it’s an unfair assessment. The Playtest arguably offers more character options than the original CRB did and obviously it’s not going to offer the breadth of options that 1E does after a decade of product. If you just don’t like the system, that’s fine, but we can’t directly contrast the players options of the two systems and expect the Playtest to reasonably compare.

Sure it doesn't have fifty-odd classes and it would be unreasonable to expect it to. But the lack of multiclassing just breaks a bunch of concepts in a way archetypes don't fix. Result: fewer meaningful options than PF1 core or for that matter 5th ed core book, which is the other obvious comparison.

Example: my PFS -1 character is a bloodrager-wizard-brawler heading into arcane trickster. If I were using PF1 Core I could do something similar with barbarian-rogue-wizard (which was the original concept before bloodrager came out and fit the backstory better). If I were playing 5th ed D&D core I could get a decent approximation with arcane trickster + wizard (and maybe some eldritch knight if the game went long enough). If I were playing 2nd ed D&D I could work with fighter-mage-thief. But in PF2 I can do what? The answer seems to be "trade half* of the rogues class features out in order to be the worlds worst wizard, who also can't even jump higher than all the heavy armoured people who didn't train acrobatics**".

* "half" isn't even an exaggeration. At level 12 IIRC a rogue has three class features plus seven rogue feats, and of those ten things five of them needed to be traded to get what looks like pretty basic wizard functionality.

** weirdly, everybody jumps 3' vertically, unless they can pass a DC30 check in which case it's 8'.

So anyway, replays. Yes. I'd love replays, because that means I might get more PFS1 games, and I really doubt I'll ever be playing PFS2.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

There's not a lack of multi-classing, there's a different way of doing it. That way may not appeal, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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Ed Reppert wrote:
There's not a lack of multi-classing, there's a different way of doing it. That way may not appeal, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's such a "different way of doing things" that the results are radically different, and things done with the former system cannot be duplicated with the latter, which in turn suggests it's not meaningfully the same thing however Paizo choose to label it. In turn this means fewer options, which was the point. I can't recreate my -1 character in PFS2, or any of the other characters I'd started, or any of the ones I had planned. Hence I want replays so I can get more PFS1 games.

**

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Make sure you make your feelings known about multiclassing in the surveys.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

Multiclassing in PF2 is, I think, done better than it was in previous systems before 3.0 had come out. It is also something that is being "tweaked" in the final product much like the ancestries are.

My only concern at this point is being able to get more than a couple of "archtype" slots before one gets to the upper levels of play.

At this point in the game, getting some of the classes that are in the PF1 library now is a matter of flavor in PF2 that would either be Archtypes in PF2, or alternate classes of what exists now (or different bloodlines of a sorcerer) in the playtest. This would be in place of deferring mechanics that PF1 classes use between their sister classes that they are based on, like Cleric vs Oracle, or Wizard vs Sorcerer.

I would really like to see how the Kinetisist would look like in the new ruleset. It isn't that it won't happen, but how long it would take before it does.

As far as Paizo supporting PF1 after Gen Con 2019, I believe that regular play will resume for some time, hashing out replay rules would help in that regard, but with no new material (officially, though home games can adjust PF2 materials presumingly) for PF1 as PF2 gets underway, the gameplay for it will wane in favor of either the new PF2 brand or a competing game. This is the risk Paizo is willing to take to update the ruleset, and make headway into a market that is getting more competitive than it has been in the past.

Paizo Employee ***** Organized Play Manager

Locking this thread.

Commentary is moved to the blog discussing Replay Update

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