First Edition Boons in Second Edition Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Society Playtest

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Micheal Smith wrote:

There are no FALLACIES with what I am saying. You haven't found any fallacies, because there aren't any. THEY ARE OPINIONS. It is a matter of perception. You see what you want. I see what I want. More people I have talked to agree with my view on them being separate and boons are not transferable between editions. I have talked to plenty of people who see it one way or the other.

...

Do you not understand All or Nothing? You seem to skip over that. Don't pick and choose. They are starting fresh for a reason. So START COMPLETELY FRESH. So how bout you leave this alone. I though you would have...
.

This is actually a very common fallacy, even if you want to call it an opinion. You're presenting two extremes and declaring only one or the other is valid. There's a billion possible solutions that fall somewhere in between, regardless of your opinion.

Micheal Smith wrote:

You earned those boons while playing 1st edition. So therefore they should ONLY be used during 1st edition. From what I have seen, they are not the same. If you allow the Boons, then why not allow feats, characters?

Firstly, these boons were earned not by playing but by donating time to prep and run, and often times by spending a not insignificant amount of additional resources (travel and lodging, vacation days, honey-do points, child care, etc) in order to ensure other players have a table at which to play. Your "different campaign, different boons" argument is perfectly cromulent. So is "I donated significant time and resources to make sure the convention was staffed." Is it wrong for people to all that their dedication in some way translate to the new system?

Secondly, there is no way the boons would be "left the same." Almost every suggestion has involved trading in old race boons towards some kind of benefit in the new edition. You appear to be arguing against allowing the old boons to be directly used in the new system (which is a straw man fallacy: your arguing against something no one has suggested).

Thirdly, we come to the false equivalence fallacy. You're arguing that a boon allowing you additional options at character creation is functionally identical to using an entire character sheet from another edition. A slip of paper that says "You can play a tiefling" is far easier to translate to a new edition, where it might instead read "You may choose the tiefling ancestry." Translating an entire character, including feats that might have literally no effect or interact with rules that no longer exist, is several magnitudes more complex.


Assuming that race boons will be offered by the Society in PFS, some way of trading in PF1 race boons for PF2 race boons would be nice. It basically gives players who have already labored to benefit PFS an alternative way to earn the boons that can also be earned by GMing at Cons or through the regional support program.

I believe that it would be good to have a way to use other boons to provide one-time support to anyone at the table (each one can provide +1 to a d20 roll, +1 damage, or -1 to damage taken). Generally only one boon could be used to affect one roll, but unlimited boons can be used to reduce damage that would otherwise kill a character.

Dark Archive *

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I hope like heck they get RID of the idea of Race/Ancestry Boons.

It's caused a few problems more than it was supposed to solve in terms of accessibility to the broader base of players in PFS1, and hopefully the campaign can learn from that experience moving forwards.

Scarab Sages *****

While I know that there are several people who feel like restricting race boons to Convention GM'ing is a problem, I'm not sure that the Campaign leadership feel the same way.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MrBear wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:

There are no FALLACIES with what I am saying. You haven't found any fallacies, because there aren't any. THEY ARE OPINIONS. It is a matter of perception. You see what you want. I see what I want. More people I have talked to agree with my view on them being separate and boons are not transferable between editions. I have talked to plenty of people who see it one way or the other.

...

Do you not understand All or Nothing? You seem to skip over that. Don't pick and choose. They are starting fresh for a reason. So START COMPLETELY FRESH. So how bout you leave this alone. I though you would have...
.

This is actually a very common fallacy, even if you want to call it an opinion. You're presenting two extremes and declaring only one or the other is valid. There's a billion possible solutions that fall somewhere in between, regardless of your opinion.

Micheal Smith wrote:

You earned those boons while playing 1st edition. So therefore they should ONLY be used during 1st edition. From what I have seen, they are not the same. If you allow the Boons, then why not allow feats, characters?

Firstly, these boons were earned not by playing but by donating time to prep and run, and often times by spending a not insignificant amount of additional resources (travel and lodging, vacation days, honey-do points, child care, etc) in order to ensure other players have a table at which to play. Your "different campaign, different boons" argument is perfectly cromulent. So is "I donated significant time and resources to make sure the convention was staffed." Is it wrong for people to all that their dedication in some way translate to the new system?

Secondly, there is no way the boons would be "left the same." Almost every suggestion has involved trading in old race boons towards some kind of benefit in the new edition. You appear to be arguing against allowing the old boons to be directly used in the new system (which is a straw man fallacy: your arguing against...

Then lets rephrase this. Guessing people can't figure it out then, and what to try an be technical. Boons EARNED one way or another in first edition should stay within 1st edition. Simple as that. Fine if you want to cal that a fallacy then if the systems are not 100% the same then they are different. So therefore they are not the same, thus proving that my perception is correct. Can I pick up first edition boon an play second edition? NO so therefore nothing should should be able to transfer. Look, we aren't getting anywhere. So PLEASE stop you clearly have your opinions on what should be done and I have my own. I already know people who already have an issue with the thought of allowing this and this is a reason why they won't support 2nd edition. If 2nd edition is anywhere the way 1st edition [content release], then I will not support 2nd edition. They put too much CRAP out to fast and looking for money. I honestly would like a refund for a lot of the companions I have bought because they were CRAP and not worth the money. I only bought because of the rules set in place for society. If you don't "Own the material" you can't use it. If this is the case then make the content worth the money. I feel cheated and ripped of. (Another topic for another time, DO NOT COMMENT ON THIS)

It is a new system so start new.

Yes it is wrong, because they put the time an effort for 1st EDITION. They didn't do it for 2nd EDITION. So their hard work they put it, should stay with 1st EDITION.

So now we are CHANGING the boon to meet A NEW SYSTEM. So there for it is not the SAME boon. If I can transfer boons then I want to transfer boons I have already used in 1st edition. Or convert those characters. I put the time into those. Now I can't finish using them. So if I can't then I get penalized because I didn't SIT on them and wait. Then I want to retrieve all of my boons back and save them, as if I knew this was the case I would have held on to them to trade them.

AGAIN, I want to make it VERY CLEAR. That I do not have an issue with boons being handed out to GM's. I am all for that. What I am against is
1. The availability of certain boons. I personally think the Pathfinder Society team has done a poor job at this. Part of the reason why I prefer Starfinder. They are rotating boons every so often. So EVERYONE has a chance to earn that boon.

2. Giving Boons out then making them useless. I received a Sylph and Ifrit. Then 6 months later those very races were allowed to everyone else. So why issue that boon out?

Please do not comment on 1 & 2 as they are off topic. Just merely pointing issue out. DO NOT COMMENT ON THIS. QUIT WASTING TIME WITH NONSENSE.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Micheal Smith wrote:
DO NOT COMMENT ON THIS

Sorry Michael, that's not how public messageboards work. You cannot dump [arguably] vitriolic commentary and claim Paizo ripped you off and think people are not going to respond. No one says you cannot feel the way you do, but (1) if you open the dialog in a public forum, you cannot simply demand people not respond, even with all caps, and (2) these are just your opinions and are not universal. So you can say Paizo has done a poor job of boon distribution, and others will disagree. You can feel that early access boons are "useless," but many would disagree.

**

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I believe it was Cicero who found that all caps was the most effective way to win a debate.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:
DO NOT COMMENT ON THIS
Sorry Michael, that's not how public messageboards work. You cannot dump [arguably] vitriolic commentary and claim Paizo ripped you off and think people are not going to respond. No one says you cannot feel the way you do, but (1) if you open the dialog in a public forum, you cannot simply demand people not respond, even with all caps, and (2) these are just your opinions and are not universal. So you can say Paizo has done a poor job of boon distribution, and others will disagree. You can feel that early access boons are "useless," but many would disagree.

There is a point on on Public forums when something should be dropped. Especially if it is going nowhere. Or if it is getting off topic. Which this is just going in circles and doing no good fro anyone.

An I am not saying people disagree with my views on the boon distribution. Of course someone will always disagree. You will find the people [most] who benefit the most will agree that the boon distribution is good. Where as the people [most] who don't get the boons will disagree. THERE WILL ALWAYS be 2[+] sides to everything.

I guess you misinterpreted what I meant by making them useless. Give me a boon that I can actually use and don't make it public 6 months later. Especially if I put ALL of that time to travel, prep, etc to earn it. Now my boons are useless, as everyone has them. So what did I really get? Early access? Really thats a cheap shot. So I get a boon, then to make it worth it I have to use it then. So I can't even wait to see other material. If I wait then everyone else uses it. Then if they decide to change the races for season 10 I have limited use with the boon. So yes that was a poor decision no matter how you look at it.

But many will agree, maybe not on the forums but I have talked to several people who were pissed with the elemental races. Also the Oread was NEVER offered in Colorado so getting the Suli was damn near impossible. There was a scenario that allowed you to something like that. I had a few friends who could not obtain the Oread. Thats not right.

By the way it is MichEAl not MichAEl. I mean it is right there within sight.

Shadow Lodge *****

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Micheal Smith wrote:
There is a point on on Public forums when something should be dropped.

You passed it a mile back.


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Micheal Smith wrote:


Give me a boon that I can actually use and don't make it public 6 months later. Especially if I put ALL of that time to travel, prep, etc to earn it. Now my boons are useless, as everyone has them. So what did I really get? Early access? Really thats a cheap shot. So I get a boon, then to make it worth it I have to use it then. So I can't even wait to see other material. If I wait then everyone else uses it. Then if they decide to change the races for season 10 I have limited use with the boon. So yes that was a poor decision no matter how you look at it.

But many will agree, maybe not on the forums but I have talked to several people who were pissed with the elemental races. Also the Oread was NEVER offered in Colorado so getting the Suli was damn near impossible. There...

While I don't agree with a lot of what you've had to say I definitely sympathize with the frustration involved with the elemental races. In fact, I'd suggest that the current concerns with the edition shift strongly mirror your past frustration. You worked to obtain a special bonus, spending time and money to unlock something cool, and shortly thereafter the benefit you worked for was taken away.

This is exactly what people are feeling now. Their hard work and expenditures gave them a reward that now feels worthless. They're feeling now exactly how you were feeling then... And nobody liked this feeling. You might want to consider how similar you are to folks you're arguing with. I'm sure there are ways to help everyone come out happy in the end.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MrBear wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:


Give me a boon that I can actually use and don't make it public 6 months later. Especially if I put ALL of that time to travel, prep, etc to earn it. Now my boons are useless, as everyone has them. So what did I really get? Early access? Really thats a cheap shot. So I get a boon, then to make it worth it I have to use it then. So I can't even wait to see other material. If I wait then everyone else uses it. Then if they decide to change the races for season 10 I have limited use with the boon. So yes that was a poor decision no matter how you look at it.

But many will agree, maybe not on the forums but I have talked to several people who were pissed with the elemental races. Also the Oread was NEVER offered in Colorado so getting the Suli was damn near impossible. There...

While I don't agree with a lot of what you've had to say I definitely sympathize with the frustration involved with the elemental races. In fact, I'd suggest that the current concerns with the edition shift strongly mirror your past frustration. You worked to obtain a special bonus, spending time and money to unlock something cool, and shortly thereafter the benefit you worked for was taken away.

This is exactly what people are feeling now. Their hard work and expenditures gave them a reward that now feels worthless. They're feeling now exactly how you were feeling then... And nobody liked this feeling. You might want to consider how similar you are to folks you're arguing with. I'm sure there are ways to help everyone come out happy in the end.

They didn't put any work in to 2nd edition. COMPLETELY different. Why should they get a boon in something they didn't even work for? Thats the point I am trying to make. I am not by any means trying to take away from them. BELIEVE ME I am grateful for all the hard work the GM's put in. Without them we wouldn't be able to play. But they did the work with 1st edition thus they should reap the benefits for where they earned the boons.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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I think the point has been made. Let's not derail this thread further by arguing. If you want to get into a more nuanced discussion, take it to another thread or PM.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

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Tallow wrote:
While I know that there are several people who feel like restricting race boons to Convention GM'ing is a problem, I'm not sure that the Campaign leadership feel the same way.

I know they are pretty effective at getting people behind the GM Screen.

RSP has been an amazing godsend for finding new GMs, and the whole contingent of players I went to SCARAB with this year volunteered to run at least one slot to get the race boon where they normally would not have at all.

**

Tallow wrote:
While I know that there are several people who feel like restricting race boons to Convention GM'ing is a problem, I'm not sure that the Campaign leadership feel the same way.

If they don't see it as a problem, I think that's a shame. The current state of affairs seems to indicate:

1) The campaign leadership sees convention play as more important than non-convention play.

2) They see people who GM at conventions as more deserving of a reward than those who GM in non-convention settings.

Now, they probably don't literally believe this but that this is the message sent by their actions.

Scarab Sages *****

pjrogers wrote:
Tallow wrote:
While I know that there are several people who feel like restricting race boons to Convention GM'ing is a problem, I'm not sure that the Campaign leadership feel the same way.

If they don't see it as a problem, I think that's a shame. The current state of affairs seems to indicate:

1) The campaign leadership sees convention play as more important than non-convention play.

2) They see people who GM at conventions as more deserving of a reward than those who GM in non-convention settings.

Now, they probably don't literally believe this but that this is the message sent by their actions.

I think that with PFS being largely a marketing tool to sell product, the primary concern is finding new people to play the game. In my prodigious experience, running and helping to run PFS in the Twin Cities for 5 years with 2 of the larger conventions in the Midwest and going to Gen Con and Paizo Con all 5 years, conventions bring in more new people than regular play. As such, GMing for conventions is more important than day to day play. Especially, because largely GMs have to pay for entry (sometimes at a small discount), food, lodging, and travel to help others have a good time instead of playing.

So it's not just a perception.

But it's also not a bad thing considering why that valuation difference might exist.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

pjrogers wrote:
Tallow wrote:
While I know that there are several people who feel like restricting race boons to Convention GM'ing is a problem, I'm not sure that the Campaign leadership feel the same way.

If they don't see it as a problem, I think that's a shame. The current state of affairs seems to indicate:

1) The campaign leadership sees convention play as more important than non-convention play.

2) They see people who GM at conventions as more deserving of a reward than those who GM in non-convention settings.

Now, they probably don't literally believe this but that this is the message sent by their actions.

I think you need to look at it from another angle:

3) Leadership thinks it takes bigger incentives to get enough GMs at conventions than for non-convention play.

4) Leadership thinks it takes bigger incentives to get GMs to run enough slots at conventions to ensure all players find a table to play at.

I'm not totally happy with Paizo's take on conventions myself, but I recognize they're important. I accept the need to have incentives for GMs.

I think the biggest improvement would be moving from an "X PFS tables" requirement to "X visitors exposed to PFS" requirement; right now we get rewarded more for pure PFS conventions than for mixed ones that expose new people to PFS.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Online aka Magabeus

Can we please move the “con boons vs non-con boons discussion” to another thread? I am interested in ideas people have about 1st edition boons in 2nd edition. Thanks!

Scarab Sages *****

Gerard van Konijnenburg wrote:
Can we please move the “con boons vs non-con boons discussion” to another thread? I am interested in ideas people have about 1st edition boons in 2nd edition. Thanks!

The two are inextricably linked.

EDIT: You can't discuss what to do with boons without having the discussion of what to do about boons at conventions (considering that is largely the best way to get boons, and other than the RSP program, the only way to get race boons.)

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Online aka Magabeus

Point is: people have 1st edition boons. Question is whether that should have an impact on 2nd edition.

If someone’s stance is that they should be worthless because it is not fair that boons are used to get people to GM at cons that is fine with me, but I don’t see the use of rehashing why it is fair or not that boons are handed out that way in this tread.

**

While I agree that the two issues are linked, there is value in focusing on one of the two—the one the OPC asked us to focus on in this thread—so that the possible solutions can be discussed in absence of the emotional charge of the other issue.


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Gerard van Konijnenburg wrote:

Point is: people have 1st edition boons. Question is whether that should have an impact on 2nd edition.

If someone’s stance is that they should be worthless because it is not fair that boons are used to get people to GM at cons that is fine with me, but I don’t see the use of rehashing why it is fair or not that boons are handed out that way in this tread.

When the crux of many arguments for the keeping of convention boons is "I spent hundreds of dollars, traveled thousands of miles, and took a week off of work to spend 40 hours running adventures for strangers," You're naturally going to have some discussion on the nature of acquisition.

pjrogers wrote:
Tallow wrote:
While I know that there are several people who feel like restricting race boons to Convention GM'ing is a problem, I'm not sure that the Campaign leadership feel the same way.

If they don't see it as a problem, I think that's a shame. The current state of affairs seems to indicate:

1) The campaign leadership sees convention play as more important than non-convention play.

2) They see people who GM at conventions as more deserving of a reward than those who GM in non-convention settings.

Now, they probably don't literally believe this but that this is the message sent by their actions.

While I agree that race boons might be more easily accessible, I have been to approximately eight conventions in the past year and Every. Singlet. One. had issues with filling their GM slots. I was able to pick up tables the week before the event in many cases, and in some cases there was enough interest that additional tables were created on the fly.

Meanwhile, at our local three table a week venue, thanks to the RSP we have a rotating GM schedule to make sure everyone who wants a table can get one. I know anecdotes aren't evidence, but from my experiences finding local volunteers is far easier than drumming up convention volunteers, and that's with exclusive race boons included.

And that is exactly why I'd like to see race boons carry over in some manner. If I went to a small two day convention to earn one, I'm likely paying $50 for entry, $150 for one night in a hotel, running two slots (out of my potential five to play), and struggling to hunt down a copy of the scenario (i've not once received a scenario for a game I was running at a con). This experience is different enough from weekly play at the LGS that folks aren't lining up to do it.

That's why people are rewarded more for convention games: people who are spending the time and money attending a con would prefer to play. There are fewer volunteers so they need to bribe people. It's not an issue of value, it's an issue of scarcity. This scarcity will not be helped if the boons earned don't carry over in some way.

I'm expecting a significant drop in volunteers between GenCon and GenCon unless something is in place for a transfer or 2nd edition bonds are being given out at cons in the meantime.

**

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Whatever exchange is decided upon--I'm like Option 3 more and more--the reward has to be something equally, well, rewarding.

A race boon for GMing at a convention is a nice, cosmetic and persistent badge that I can use and enjoy. It seems like a boon granting a unusual ancestry would match that.

I know that I wouldn't be lured to GM at a convention in pre-August 2019 if I knew that all I would get for my efforts was a race boon that I could tear up in exchange for a +1 on a single d20 of my choice.

Maybe if I could exchange it for a body recovery, raise dead, and the two restorations. Even then, I'd still feel a little let down.

*

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Offering my perspective as someone who abandoned Pathfinder and PFS quiet a while ago and mostly due to irritation with the Boons economy.

To be clear: I bailed almost four years ago at this point and have not continued to research developments with PFS or Boons for PFS since. There should certainly be details I'm ignorant of.

I don't like oodles of hyper-exclusive options locked out for this rewards system at all.

I don't like a campaign culture based around status badges and better powergaming tools.

That was certainly the feeling when interacting with PFS at GenCon and at some store games around the country. I don't like the play incentives that the existence of this system creates, nor the conversations between players that it creates.

I'm quite interested to try PFS 2.0, but this sort of exclusive lockout reward and the convention and store conversations about boons cheese me off to a very high degree.

Given existing invested players are a pretty important demographic and that luring convention volunteers is an issue, my assumption is that this decision will land somewhere that will mean I'm not actually doing PFS 2.0. I can respect the reasons for making that decision.

For what it is worth, option 1, option 4, or option 3 with no window of exclusive access purely through old boon trade-in are the options that allow me to try out PFS 2.0 for a few years before the naturally inflationary and collection-driven nature of a boons system becomes too much for me.

In order to stay a long-term invested player, though, a lot about boons would need a rethink. At some point, all of the points being made here about needing to bribe people to GM at conventions by locking out options from other players and awarding them powergaming tools are also the reason to abandon the campaign for me.

I don't want a campaign with that wide of a power band between hyper-invested and casual players whose characters are the same level, and I don't want to show up at tables with a culture built on status badging based on access locked-out content.

**

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I'm at a loss as to what the "power gaming tools" and the power gap between characters of the same level might be. I've only been playing for about a year and change.

My vanara and changeling boons certainly aren't going to make my characters any better than an elf or halfling character except maybe in come niche areas (like climbing).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

The merfolk boon could be said to be a power increase, given their ability score modifiers and other qualities, though their sluggish land speed does complicate matters a bit.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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The assimar and to some extent the tiefling are a magnitude better than other races. Particularly with the former and its ability score advantage. Also, the availability of the bloodlines (angel blood, azata blood, etc.) make it almost pointedly better than any core race and most of the optional races due to its customization. Nearly any character build can be done better with an assimar (or tiefling). Aside from the obvious mechanical advantages, the idea is supported by nearly every player in the community wanting access to them, and not only once but for numerous characters. This was apparent when they went back into retirement and there was a concerted effort by a particularly large amount of the community to make special schedules and "speed runs" in order to lock in more assimar. No other race that has been introduced has seen this type of activity. There is an understanding that the race is clearly better than others.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I'll just say, I want lots of tieflings because I love tragedy and angst. I probably wouldn't use more than two or three of the ancestries, barring specific concepts (such as my blinded medusa).

That said, I understand that I'm probably the outlier here, and that the policy shouldn't be based on my experience. ^_^

**** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Southcoast aka JDDyslexia

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Don't mind me, just catching up on this thread...

MrBear wrote:
While I do agree that rewarding work is fantastic (and I think the RSP program goes a long way towards this), an important part of convention rewarded GM boons is to sort of bribe people to run tables at conventions. It turns out that when you ask someone to pay transportation, lodging and entry for a convention in order to volunteer their time running instead of playing you often end up with fewer volunteers and more burn out for those that do help. If there weren't special convention race boons I'm certain the convention play scene would suffer greatly.

This kind of mentality skates a very uncomfortable line, between "I'm interested in going to this convention" and "I'm only going to GM PFS so I can get boons." I'm not one to travel to conventions just for the sake of collecting PFS GM boons. The two local conventions I go to I was genuinely interested in going to, and I volunteered to GM tables at both conventions (even though I knew I was getting the same race boon I didn't want and can't seem to trade away for anything I'm interested in). Additionally, for the conventions that I've GM'd at, I never paid for my convention pass. I GM'd enough tables to be considered an event organizer and as such, I was given a convention pass for free. Personally, I wouldn't take on a responsibility of GMing tables at a convention unless there was some sort of incentive (like a free or reduced price) convention pass. Alternatively, if I was a VC/RVC organizing a convention event, I wouldn't hand out GM race boons to people who only GM one table out of, say 10 time slots that weekend.

pjrogers wrote:
My primary concern is that con GMing/support is far more heavily incentivized than non-con GMing/support.

I think this is perhaps the biggest issue I have right now with how boons are set up for PFS. The RSP gives you the opportunity to gain one if you GM 12 tables, and the ability to hand one out for another 12. Except you can't count convention tables towards this amount (understandable limitation), and it's only one per year you can earn. Meanwhile, you could go GM a single table at every local convention you can get to, and earn one just for doing that. It creates a huge barrier for people who just don't have the money to go to conventions all the time.

**

Joe Bouchard wrote:
It creates a huge barrier for people who just don't have the money to go to conventions all the time.

That barrier is socioeconomic and not PFS' responsibility to deal with.

I can't go to conventions around the country to collect race boons, but I support rewarding convention GMs with race boons.

People have priorities in their lives. For some people, that means spending money on rent, groceries, and car payments over convention entrance fees and hotel charges. Some people sleep in their cars to attend conventions. Some people just can't get the time off from work. Some people have children that can't be handed off to a relative or attend the convention. PFS cannot (and should not try) to address these differentials.

Scarab Sages *****

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Joe Bouchard wrote:
It creates a huge barrier for people who just don't have the money to go to conventions all the time.

That barrier is socioeconomic and not PFS' responsibility to deal with.

I can't go to conventions around the country to collect race boons, but I support rewarding convention GMs with race boons.

People have priorities in their lives. For some people, that means spending money on rent, groceries, and car payments over convention entrance fees and hotel charges. Some people sleep in their cars to attend conventions. Some people just can't get the time off from work. Some people have children that can't be handed off to a relative or attend the convention. PFS cannot (and should not try) to address these differentials.

Agreed. I've always been of a mind, that if you really want to go to a convention, you'll find a way. Obviously with children involved, that becomes much more problematic, and probably the only circumstance I see that is an absolute non-starter.

But I've had $120 in my bank account, paid out $100 of that for gas, got my hotel and entry fee free, and brought peanut butter, bread and cheese for sandwiches. I drove myself to Origins (Columbus, OH) from Minnesota to run Living Dragonstar back in the day, when I was poor.

I've known other people who have gone without a room and slept in cars, friends rooms, hotel lobbies, restrooms, etc. I've known people to sell their car to get the money to go to a convention. I've known people to pawn TVs, quit their job, etc. to go to conventions. A bit extreme? Yes. Perhaps irresponsible? Yes. But if you really want to go to a convention, there is very little that actually stops you other than your own priorities.

**

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Blake's Tiger wrote:
Joe Bouchard wrote:
It creates a huge barrier for people who just don't have the money to go to conventions all the time.
That barrier is socioeconomic and not PFS' responsibility to deal with.

I've got to disagree, at least in part, with this position. No, it is not PFS's responsibility in a technical sense. However, PFS should be organized so that everyone involved has a high quality playing experience. There already is a bit of a "pay to win" element as players are required to own the source books they use for their characters. I understand and am fine with this. Paizo is a business, and PFS is a tool that they use to generate revenue for their business.

However, I think we need to be careful about setting up too many barriers to more casual and less well-off players. To my mind, the current convention-centric approach to making race boons available creates just such a barrier and potentially discourages some folks from taking part in organized play or if they do play, potentially makes them feel like second-class citizens because they are denied a significant number of options due to their inability to participate in convention play.

Scarab Sages *****

pjrogers wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Joe Bouchard wrote:
It creates a huge barrier for people who just don't have the money to go to conventions all the time.
That barrier is socioeconomic and not PFS' responsibility to deal with.

I've got to disagree, at least in part, with this position. No, it is not PFS's responsibility in a technical sense. However, PFS should be organized so that everyone involved has a high quality playing experience. There already is a bit of a "pay to win" element as players are required to own the source books they use for their characters. I understand and am fine with this. Paizo is a business, and PFS is a tool that they use to generate revenue for their business.

However, I think we need to be careful about setting up too many barriers to more casual and less well-off players. To my mind, the current convention-centric approach to making race boons available creates just such a barrier and potentially discourages some folks from taking part in organized play or if they do play, potentially makes them feel like second-class citizens because they are denied a significant number of options due to their inability to participate in convention play.

It also generates the possibilities for a lot of good will. With a good regional VO team, that are paying attention to what's going on and what complaints are happening, they can encourage and try to help set up situations in which anyone can get to a convention to earn something like this. Another thing I've seen VO teams do, is use their own prodigious library of earned boons as rewards locally during regular game days.

**

First, "pay to win" does not apply in any sense that I have seen it used in these discussions. It's just a charged expression.

pjrogers wrote:
However, PFS should be organized so that everyone involved has a high quality playing experience.

...and your suggestion to do that is to de-incentivize convention GMing?

EDIT: What is the barrier that PFS is setting up? The fact that you need disposable income and disposable time to go to a convention?

I need disposable income and disposable time to go to the movies. If I can't afford to go to Avengers: Infinity War, should Disney or my local movie theater chain send me a free copy to my house?

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

Speaking of a good VO team - every VO of lieutenant and above is required to organize a convention at least once a year. So if you've got an officer nearby, there should be at least one convention nearby.

**

Blake's Tiger wrote:
EDIT: What is the barrier that PFS is setting up? The fact that you need disposable income and disposable time to go to a convention?

No, the fact that you need to go to a convention in order to be more likely to obtain a valuable boon such as a race boon. If PFS wanted to create a higher quality experience for a larger percentage of the PFS community, it would make valuable boons more available to folks GMing non-convention tables.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

You mean like with the RSP boons?

**

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
You mean like with the RSP boons?

Yes, this is a start but as was pointed above the effort-to-reward ratio is much higher in non-con settings than it is at cons. So, I think there is still a problem, albeit one that is slightly less serious than previously.

**** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Southcoast aka JDDyslexia

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
You mean like with the RSP boons?

Correct, but not with the disparity it exists today.

For example, let's look at this year's RSP:
As a GM, GM 12 tables and you can create a character for 1 or 2 races. GM another 12 tables, and you get to make a copy and give that boon to someone else (which I think is an AWESOME idea, so long as GMs aren't just handing them off to each other).

But, let's look at the RSP boons for players:
1 Storytelling boon (which is actually really nice)
2 boons that require you to give up race boons to utilize
1 boon that only helps GMs.

So, if you're a relatively newer player or a player that doesn't GM, there's literally only 1 boon for you to choose. I already have a few players that have won RSP boons at my store, and they are somewhat disappointed by the selection.

Meanwhile, for GM Convention boons, there are FOUR different race boons available, and all you have to do is GM once to get it during the right timeframe.

It'd be really nice if there was some reward for players as well. Not to the same level of GMs, but at least SOMETHING that doesn't require you to go to a convention.

Tallow wrote:

Agreed. I've always been of a mind, that if you really want to go to a convention, you'll find a way. Obviously, with children involved, that becomes much more problematic, and probably the only circumstance I see that is an absolute non-starter.

But I've had $120 in my bank account, paid out $100 of that for gas, got my hotel and entry fee free, and brought peanut butter, bread and cheese for sandwiches. I drove myself to Origins (Columbus, OH) from Minnesota to run Living Dragonstar back in the day, when I was poor.

I've known other people who have gone without a room and slept in cars, friends rooms, hotel lobbies, restrooms, etc. I've known people to sell their car to get the money to go to a convention. I've known people to pawn TVs, quit their job, etc. to go to conventions. A bit extreme? Yes. Perhaps irresponsible? Yes. But if you really want to go to a convention, there is very little that actually stops you other than your own priorities.

The most garbage of takes. I don't know if this was some self-inflating statement or what, but that's a rather privileged position for a game that's supposed to be open for all.

--------------------

What I'm suggesting isn't to just eliminate the incentive for GMs at conventions, but I'm suggesting doing something to close the gap a bit between GM rewards at conventions (which, IMO, seem to be handed out a little too easily; I think all convention-support levels should have rewards in tiers like GenCon does) and the lack of high-value boons provided to regular players. Take a look at some of the other forums, and you see examples of GMs that have dozens of spare boons available for trade or whatever. There should be no reason for that much disparity.

Scarab Sages *****

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Joe Bouchard wrote:
Tallow wrote:

Agreed. I've always been of a mind, that if you really want to go to a convention, you'll find a way. Obviously, with children involved, that becomes much more problematic, and probably the only circumstance I see that is an absolute non-starter.

But I've had $120 in my bank account, paid out $100 of that for gas, got my hotel and entry fee free, and brought peanut butter, bread and cheese for sandwiches. I drove myself to Origins (Columbus, OH) from Minnesota to run Living Dragonstar back in the day, when I was poor.

I've known other people who have gone without a room and slept in cars, friends rooms, hotel lobbies, restrooms, etc. I've known people to sell their car to get the money to go to a convention. I've known people to pawn TVs, quit their job, etc. to go to conventions. A bit extreme? Yes. Perhaps

The most garbage of takes. I don't know if this was some self-inflating statement or what, but that's a rather privileged position for a game that's supposed to be open for all.

Its not privileged at all. Its saying that I found a way to get to a convention despite having no money to go (of course I wasn't as financially irresponsible as some of the examples I gave.) Its merely saying that if you really want to go to a convention, you will find a way to prioritize it over all of the other things grabbing your attention, interest, or responsibilities. It doesn't require someone to have any level of privilege to manage to go to a convention. It just requires enough "want to" to change your priorities accordingly.

Now, I'm actually quite insulted that you call my take, "garbage". I sacrificed time, money I didn't have, and a certain level of enjoyment (because I couldn't afford to do anything other than GM while there.) How is my prioritizing my life around getting to a convention despite not initially having the resources to do so, a garbage take? That was my life for 2 or 3 years in the early Aughts. I used my limited vacation time for conventions. I used money I really didn't have available for conventions. I drove myself through blizzards to get to conventions (Winter Fantasy in Ft. Wayne, IN.)

If I can do that, others can to. So I almost never buy the, "I don't have the ability to go to conventions." Children and actual physical disabilities are typically the only reason I can see for actually not being able to go.

Its just whether you prioritize things that way or not. For awhile I did. I would not do so now as I have a different outlook on things. But then I don't grouse about not being able to go when I choose to prioritize my life differently.

In almost every case, getting to a convention (and there are quite a few local ones all over the world--so you don't need to find a way to go to one of the major ones) is about personal prioritization. If you refuse to do that, and you don't have an actual valid reason for not doing so, then the complaint about haves and have-nots as far as convention GM boons are really invalid.

Scarab Sages *****

Joe Bouchard wrote:
What I'm suggesting isn't to just eliminate the incentive for GMs at conventions, but I'm suggesting doing something to close the gap a bit between GM rewards at conventions (which, IMO, seem to be handed out a little too easily; I think all convention-support levels should have rewards in tiers like GenCon does) and the lack of high-value boons provided to regular players. Take a look at some of the other forums, and you see examples of GMs that have dozens of spare boons available for trade or whatever. There should be no reason for that much disparity.

Talk to your VO team. I see that you are a VA, so if you organize a convention the next option is your choice as well.

The local VO team that organizes our conventions in the Twin Cities has started only offering the GM boons if you GM at least 2 slots at our conventions. The reason for this I think has more to do with making sure we have enough GMs as our conventions are growing to over the 100 table threshold, but it does have the effect of increasing the requirement to gain a convention GM boon.

But every VO that organizes a convention has the option to determine what requirements there will be to earn the boon. You don't have to give it to every GM that GM's one slot. That isn't a requirement from the OPC as far as I'm aware.

**

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Why is being rewarded as a player even being compared to being rewarded for volunteering as a GM?

To GM: I need to buy the scenario, prepare the scenario, buy the maps, markers, minis/stand-ins, among other things, not to mention the ephemeral costs like running it before getting to play it, running a table instead of playing at a table. (Yes, I like to GM, but I also like to play and to be surprised when playing.)

To play: I need to bring my character sheet and a pebble I found on the ground to represent my character.

**

Tallow wrote:
Joe Bouchard wrote:
What I'm suggesting isn't to just eliminate the incentive for GMs at conventions, but I'm suggesting doing something to close the gap a bit between GM rewards at conventions (which, IMO, seem to be handed out a little too easily; I think all convention-support levels should have rewards in tiers like GenCon does) and the lack of high-value boons provided to regular players. Take a look at some of the other forums, and you see examples of GMs that have dozens of spare boons available for trade or whatever. There should be no reason for that much disparity.
Talk to your VO team. I see that you are a VA, so if you organize a convention the next option is your choice as well.

Why not just embrace the simpler and more equitable option of treating con and non-con GMing in a similar manner when it comes to rewards such as boons?

I confess that I don't fully understand the apparent depth of opposition to this position.

Shadow Lodge *****

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Why would I GM at a con if I can just stay local and get the same reward?

**

TOZ wrote:
Why would I GM at a con if I can just stay local and get the same reward?

Because you wanted to support PFS by GMing at a con? Why do you GM in non-con settings?

Shadow Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

For the rewards, obviously. :)

Scarab Sages *****

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pjrogers wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Why would I GM at a con if I can just stay local and get the same reward?
Because you wanted to support PFS by GMing at a con? Why do you GM in non-con settings?

Just to give you a bird's-eye view from someone who organized 4 game days a month, helped on two large conventions per year, provided overhead logistical support for several smaller conventions for 5 years. There is two different paradigms at work here.

1) Weekly play needs GMs, or weekly play doesn't happen. So the reward that GMs get for weekly GMing, is that someone else will GM for them the next week. That's the idea. And indeed, many lodges have failed when the same few GMs get burned out and nobody else is willing to help out. So as a leadership, you need to foster an attitude of, "games don't happen if I'm the only one GM'ing." Of course, there are other incentives, more positive reinforcement, you can use to foster a healthy community based on people taking turns providing a fun experience for others.

2) Conventions need both GMs and players. But they cost money and an incredible amount of time to participate. Conventions are also one of the best places to get new players interested. But because of the time and money commitment, people are less likely to volunteer to GM at a convention when they can get all their playing/GMing in during the weekly game days. Indeed, they are so much less likely to volunteer, that incentives need to be provided. Thus in the past there was prize support. Paizo used to send boxes of product to hand out as prizes to anyone playing or GMing PFS. Paizo used to send novels to hand out. Paizo sent several regular boons and race boons. They still send the boons, but now instead of product support, they send gift certificates.

The point is, getting folks to help in these two different paradigms, conventions are much harder to ensure a table has a GM than weekly game days are. Thus the larger incentive.

**

pjrogers wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Why would I GM at a con if I can just stay local and get the same reward?
Because you wanted to support PFS by GMing at a con? Why do you GM in non-con settings?

GMing for my local group is so much easier and convenient than arranging to go to a convention to GM. I can't even begin to explain how much more convenient. And if I have to back out for whatever reason, there's always next month to make up for it.

**

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I'll just close my contribution to this thread by reiterating the points that I've made all along. I think the present system creates a two-tier system in PFS - con-going haves and non-con-going have-nots. It seems clear to me that both con and non-con play are equally important for a successful organized play system and thus both should be similarly incentivized.

If the only thing producing a steady stream of convention GMs is the existing non-equitable boon distribution system, then I'd encourage the organized play leadership to look for alternative incentives that don't give the impression that they value con over non-con GMing and play.

Scarab Sages *****

This conversation has been going on since I can remember in early 2012 when the first Tengu boons were handed out. All other options suggested in the last 6+ years have met with tepid response. Largely because anything that's as attractive as a rare race creates a different and more dangerous paradigm of have/have not, which has to do with character power. There may be an option that hasn't been explored yet unrevealed, but it's not likely.

Furthermore, it's convenient that you seem to be ignoring all the experience in organizing that many have (combined about 30 years in this thread) that tell you that finding convention GMs is harder. Additionally, conventions are highly important for recruiting new players. Without new players, lodges don't grow and can even retract (some becoming extinct.)

Now you can ignore all that because you want what you want, I suppose, but that doesn't make your case any stronger for it.

*** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Tallow wrote:
The local VO team that organizes our conventions in the Twin Cities has started only offering the GM boons if you GM at least 2 slots at our conventions. The reason for this I think has more to do with making sure we have enough GMs as our conventions are growing to over the 100 table threshold, but it does have the effect of increasing the requirement to gain a convention GM boon.

That is the case for large conventions where we have a lot of tables to fill. For smaller conventions where we may only have three to four tables at a time, one table will do it.

We can also use more volunteers at the conventions. It would allow us to spread the duties around more. It tends to be many of the same people who volunteer at them, although Starfinder has brought in more.

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