When is the next blog?


Prerelease Discussion

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Druids being limited to non-metal armor won't be as bad in PF2 since the design goal is for all types of armor to be viable rather than to just have one set that's better than all others of its type in each category.


It's not so much a power concern since dragonhide isn't that expensive and you won't be getting much armour bonus while wildshaped anyway. It's a flavour concern that brings in the question of why this is a Wis-based class that gets Knowledge (nature) as a class skill if it's so backwards in its thinking. Because of the restriction, I have yet to fully consider a PC druid and have produced no NPC druids that have a solid grasp on reality. Sensible antipaladins are easier than sensible druids.


My assumption was that Druids couldn't wear metal armor because their powers are connected to the First World, and Fey hate metal.


Except for the fact that there is no finer distinction within divine magic. A multiclass Cleric/Druid can channel the same source of power through the same conditions to produce the same effect, but one of them fails when the other doesn't.

Besides, where does that leave Hunters, Rangers, Magaambyan arcanists with Arcane Armour Training, Samasarans that were druids previously,... that can all cast very similar spells with no such restrictions?

Sovereign Court

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I don't think that Primal is quite the same thing as Divine.


I was referring to PF1 mechanics, since they are known. Hence the use of present tense and not future tense.


Yeah, but for PF2, we aren't using divine magic anymore, so comparisons to the cleric don't work out.

Personally, I agree that it is weird that Druids can't use metal but can use the hide of an animal or the wood from a tree-- harvesting the flesh of nature doesn't really scream protector to me. But making primal magic its own thing does help some of the flavor issues.


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Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, but for PF2, we aren't using divine magic anymore, so comparisons to the cleric don't work out.

Personally, I agree that it is weird that Druids can't use metal but can use the hide of an animal or the wood from a tree-- harvesting the flesh of nature doesn't really scream protector to me. But making primal magic its own thing does help some of the flavor issues.

Living in harmony with nature doesn't mean not taking advantage of its bounty. It just means you aren't tipping the scales for or against it.

After all, critters eat critters. You're a critter. So, go eat some critters.


Heck, if you get into the protector aspect, It ain't carbon keeping the oceans from being stripped off. Life makes these big complicated things enshrining single atoms of metal, because its those metal atoms that allow life to function. It's Iron that lets elements get anywhere so they can form life, and the most common element might as well be a metal, since you see it oxidized an awful lot more than you see it reduced (high-pressure conductivity aside)


Gregg Reece wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, but for PF2, we aren't using divine magic anymore, so comparisons to the cleric don't work out.

Personally, I agree that it is weird that Druids can't use metal but can use the hide of an animal or the wood from a tree-- harvesting the flesh of nature doesn't really scream protector to me. But making primal magic its own thing does help some of the flavor issues.

Living in harmony with nature doesn't mean not taking advantage of its bounty. It just means you aren't tipping the scales for or against it.

After all, critters eat critters. You're a critter. So, go eat some critters.

I mean, I don't actually have a problem with druids eating meat or wearing leather. I just don't really get why metal is bad for them.

Maybe it is because of the environmental impact of metalworking as an industry? Mining, putting smoke into the air from the smelting process, etc. But with Golarion level industrialization I always pictured lumber and maybe over hunting to the be big culprits.


Arachnofiend wrote:
My assumption was that Druids couldn't wear metal armor because their powers are connected to the First World, and Fey hate metal.

I always figured it was because plant and animal material was easily available and workable through primitive means. But metal required more advanced technology and was therefore less 'natural.' Of course then it was kind of odd that they were perfectly able to use metal tools and weapons, just not armor. And their use of scimitars always struck me as odd. Not exactly a primitive weapon or with any connections to nature other than their vaguely shaped similar to a sickle (which itself isn't really connected to nature. It is connected to agriculture which is more technological and 'civilized').

So I think the real justification is that it's the way it's been done in previous editions when the authors didn't really give it so much thought, as well as game balance issues. Kind of like clerics not being able to use sharp objects before 3rd edition.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Gregg Reece wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, but for PF2, we aren't using divine magic anymore, so comparisons to the cleric don't work out.

Personally, I agree that it is weird that Druids can't use metal but can use the hide of an animal or the wood from a tree-- harvesting the flesh of nature doesn't really scream protector to me. But making primal magic its own thing does help some of the flavor issues.

Living in harmony with nature doesn't mean not taking advantage of its bounty. It just means you aren't tipping the scales for or against it.

After all, critters eat critters. You're a critter. So, go eat some critters.

I mean, I don't actually have a problem with druids eating meat or wearing leather. I just don't really get why metal is bad for them.

Maybe it is because of the environmental impact of metalworking as an industry? Mining, putting smoke into the air from the smelting process, etc. But with Golarion level industrialization I always pictured lumber and maybe over hunting to the be big culprits.

I always thought it originated from the popular image of ancient Celtic peoples, eschewing armor because it was taking your life out of the hands of fate. The Druid has definitely come along way from just being a Celtic priest, though, so hopefully wet get some druids who aren't hampered by metal. There was already a bit of precedent with Gorumite Druids wearing armor when wild shaped.


I never got the "requires simpler tech" aspect. I consider "take this hide, use this specialized tool to get the hair off, soak it in these chemicals over here, and go find a cutting implement because you won't be able to shape it" to be more tech-intensive than "heat up this rock and hit it until it's in the right shape" Heck, steel was used for a while before production was known, they just happened to produce a higher carbon content from the charcoal the ore was being smelted on.


By the way, the blog is not a class blog


The Sideromancer wrote:
By the way, the blog is not a class blog

I just suck at predicting blogs.


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The logic seemed sound.

Still, that means we're likely to have back to back class blogs at some point. I wonder what their internal schedule for the blogs is, and what went into their thinking for the timing.

Paizo Employee Designer

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We only have 6 classes that haven't had blogs, not 7 (I am not counting druid as having had a blog), and there's theoretically 8 more Mondays before the release (there were 9 before this Monday). That means almost all of the remaining Mondays will have a class, assuming classes always come on Mondays.


Mark Seifter wrote:
We only have 6 classes that haven't had blogs, not 7 (I am not counting druid as having had a blog), and there's theoretically 8 more Mondays before the release (there were 9 before this Monday). That means almost all of the remaining Mondays will have a class, assuming classes always come on Mondays.

Ah Mark. With your quasi-omnipresent answering of so many of our queries, I both appreciate and feel bad for you, man. In all seriousness, though, I am SOOOO pumped for all this.

EDIT: This isn't directed at anyone in particular; rather, at us as a group.


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...For some reason I keep thinking the core rulebook is going to have 13 classes instead of 12.

In any case, I definitely wasn't counting the Monday before Gencon as a potential class blog day, and I explained my logic for why I doubted July 2 would get one either. Resonance and Rituals are two other topics I could see needed the extra resources, and there's probably more that I'm not considering (that Goblins were as divisive as they are greatly surprised me).

Paizo Employee Designer

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AnimatedPaper wrote:

...For some reason I keep thinking the core rulebook is going to have 13 classes instead of 12.

In any case, I definitely wasn't counting the Monday before Gencon as a potential class blog day, and I explained my logic for why I doubted July 2 would get one either. Resonance and Rituals are two other topics I could see needed the extra resources, and there's probably more that I'm not considering (that Goblins were as divisive as they are greatly surprised me).

Oh, I'm certainly not saying the Monday before Gencon is likely to be a class blog day, just that it's a Monday. If you assume it won't have a class, that means, assuming all the other assumptions before, that there's only one other non-class Monday. Without looking at the list, your guess of magic items is certainly not a bad guess for what could be in that slot, as it's likely to be spirited as well.


Mark Seifter wrote:
We only have 6 classes that haven't had blogs, not 7 (I am not counting druid as having had a blog), and there's theoretically 8 more Mondays before the release (there were 9 before this Monday). That means almost all of the remaining Mondays will have a class, assuming classes always come on Mondays.

Oh, right! I double-counted Cleric/Paladin.


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"Like sand through the hourglass, so are the days of our blogs."
~Soap-crates~


Today is definitely more about skill feats. But probably also finally directly covering instead of implying how you advance skills past Trained. And maybe also damage control on the unpopular revelation that only signature skills can ever go past Expert.


my money is on either that or they gave us rouge as blog post

Liberty's Edge

Fuzzypaws wrote:
Today is definitely more about skill feats. But probably also finally directly covering instead of implying how you advance skills past Trained. And maybe also damage control on the unpopular revelation that only signature skills can ever go past Expert.

Mark actually pretty much already answered the first part over here. Short version: You get a single Skill Rank every odd level after 1st. Rogues probably get them on even levels, too.

A bit of a note on how to get more Signature Skills and how easy doing so is wouldn't go amiss, though.


khadgar567 wrote:
my money is on either that or they gave us rouge as blog post

So you're saying they're going to make a blog post solely on a certain shade of red commonly used in feminine make-up products, and not about a class with underworld specialties?

Liberty's Edge

Well, they already did Rogue, so another post on that would be redundant. They haven't posted a thing yet about rouge. ;)


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
khadgar567 wrote:
my money is on either that or they gave us rouge as blog post
So you're saying they're going to make a blog post solely on a certain shade of red commonly used in feminine make-up products, and not about a class with underworld specialties?

What do you have against delicate shades of crimson?


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Well, they already did Rogue, so another post on that would be redundant. They haven't posted a thing yet about rouge. ;)

An entire blog dedicated to rouge could give us insights into crafting (cosmetics) and how item bonuses apply to skills such as diplomacy or as part of a disguised based deception check or just as a general confidence bonus because sometimes you're not doing it for other people you just apply makeup because you like how it makes you feel about yourself.

(To khadgar567 I hope this comes off as the light hearted ribbing it is supposed to rather than an attack, personally I only have about a 70% success rate in spelling rogue vs rouge.)


Gregg Reece wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
khadgar567 wrote:
my money is on either that or they gave us rouge as blog post
So you're saying they're going to make a blog post solely on a certain shade of red commonly used in feminine make-up products, and not about a class with underworld specialties?
What do you have against delicate shades of crimson?

Nothing at all. I just think it strange that make-up would be worthy of its own blog post, considering how misspelled the word Rogue is across the world.

I mean, I can see it being involved in the follow-up Skills blog in regards to Disguise, granting a minor Item bonus to the check, but having it's own entire blog post? Is this PF: Designer Fashion edition?

**Edit** Yes, this is largely poking fun.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Gregg Reece wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
khadgar567 wrote:
my money is on either that or they gave us rouge as blog post
So you're saying they're going to make a blog post solely on a certain shade of red commonly used in feminine make-up products, and not about a class with underworld specialties?
What do you have against delicate shades of crimson?

Nothing at all. I just think it strange that make-up would be worthy of its own blog post, considering how misspelled the word Rogue is across the world.

I mean, I can see it being involved in the follow-up Skills blog in regards to Disguise, granting a minor Item bonus to the check, but having it's own entire blog post? Is this PF: Designer Fashion edition?

**Edit** Yes, this is largely poking fun.

I know so i dont gonna bother to explain my post but its either rogue, bard( aka every ones favorite skill monkey) or skills.


Didn't we already get rogue, and aren't classes usually not on Fridays (so whatever hot mess it produces can be adequately moderated)?


Not every class is going to produce a hot mess, if they think a class will be less controversial they might put it on Friday. I wouldn't be surprised in fact if Bard was today, provided it's not dramatically, controversially different from the PF1e version.


Monday will definitely either be the Ranger or Bard after a week of skill setup. Most likely Bard. Then Ranger will be a future Monday blog, with Druid that Friday if it gets a blog at all because it has already been "revealed" and people are mostly okay with it.

I am curious how many former Bard class features are now just Perform, Diplomacy etc skill feats.

Liberty's Edge

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Shinigami02 wrote:
Not every class is going to produce a hot mess, if they think a class will be less controversial they might put it on Friday. I wouldn't be surprised in fact if Bard was today, provided it's not dramatically, controversially different from the PF1e version.

Except for the 4th spell-list part, the 9th-level caster and what nerf might have been needed to make it balanced ;-)


I've already promised to get up, find a table, and flip it if the metal armour restriction is still there. I don't know where you got the idea that Druid is not going to be controversial.

Okay, maybe it's just me.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What topics other than classes do we need blog posts for ?

Bulk, Alignment, Multiclassing, pets would all be nice to get

Liberty's Edge

The Sideromancer wrote:
I've already promised to get up, find a table, and flip it if the metal armour restriction is still there.

It's there in their Armor Proficiencies (they're only Proficient in non-metal armors). Whether it's also mystically binding in some fashion remains an open question (I'd personally bet no, but I could easily be wrong).


The Sideromancer wrote:

I've already promised to get up, find a table, and flip it if the metal armour restriction is still there. I don't know where you got the idea that Druid is not going to be controversial.

Okay, maybe it's just me.

The metal restriction is there, indirectly. The druid gets proficiency in non-metal armor.

Now, that may just mean if they get proficiency in metal armor by spending a feat or multiclassing, they're gold. Or it may mean that the as-yet unseen anathema also restrict metal. But I'm betting on the former.

Edit: NINJAS


The Raven Black wrote:

What topics other than classes do we need blog posts for ?

Bulk, Alignment, Multiclassing, pets would all be nice to get

We won't get a bulk blog nor is it necessary, unless it's part of some larger unexpected blog on more extensive changes to ability scores than anticipated.

Alignment won't happen, the Paladin blog was already basically an alignment blog and barely touched on class features at all.

Pets won't happen except as a subsection of a Ranger or Druid blog.

Multiclassing, yes, we need to know about but it will probably be the very last "controversy-inducing" blog right before the playtest comes out. They need to cover every class first.


Archetypes maybe? Unless that will be part of the multi-class blog VMC style.


Today is a continuation of skills. It literally said that in Monday's blog.


My guess is it's something to do with the half-human ancestries, and how they shake out. I'm personally interested in how they differ from 1e, especially given that all races get a free +2, so I wonder if they'll move away from having the same bonuses as human (which based on what we've seen is +2 to 2 free), and I'm also interested in how much we can tinker with how close they are to either of their parent races with ancestry feats.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Alignment won't happen, the Paladin blog was already basically an alignment blog and barely touched on class features at all.

I think it was mostly a Code blog rather than alignment. And what threads tackled the alignment issue did so from a PF1 perspective

AFAIK nothing the devs wrote at the time described alignment in PF2 while it is an important part of the rules in dire need of clarification

I sincerely hope they did more than copy the PF1 text


Gregg Reece wrote:
Today is a continuation of skills. It literally said that in Monday's blog.

Well I'll be: "Mark will take up more aspects of what you can do with skill feats this Friday!"


Seeing as they’re doing skills this week, I’m betting my sawdust that this Monday will be the Bard blog.

Much like how we had the Spell Blog before Clerics and the Combat Blog before Fighters, what we learn about skills this week will give us the context to understand how Bards will interact with skills in ways that set them apart from the other classes. The PF1, the Bard was a better Skill Monkey than the Rogue pre-Unchained (and debatably, after as well) so it would make sense that Bards would be the other master of skills.

Perhaps Lore Master gives them Assurance in all Lore skills?

Perhaps the Bard can spend a spell-point to Critically Succeed a Lore check?

Perhaps to replicate Jack-of-All-Trades, Bards (as Class Abilities) become Trained in all skills at 10th level, Expert in all skills at 15th level, and Master in all skills at 19th?

The idea being that Rogues gain more Skill Ranks and Skill feats so they can specialize in the skills they want and reach higher proficiencies more quickly, while Bards slowly gains a wider range of skills at a lower proficiency.


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ElSilverWind wrote:

Perhaps to replicate Jack-of-All-Trades, Bards (as Class Abilities) become Trained in all skills at 10th level, Expert in all skills at 15th level, and Master in all skills at 19th?

The idea being that Rogues gain more Skill Ranks and Skill feats so they can specialize in the skills they want and reach higher proficiencies more quickly, while Bards slowly gains a wider range of skills at a lower proficiency.

I could also see Bards counting as trained/expert/master for the purposes of selecting and using skill feats without actually getting the proficiency. Bards would become those people that could do neat, niche tricks without the underlying competency. Like you can select Cat Fall, and even unlock the progressive benefits, all without actually investing in Acrobatics.

I'm not sure if that would be a good or bad idea, but it might be worth trying to see.


I'm kinda worried about the idea of the Bard being a full caster, largely because I love bards but hate full casters... It's definitely the class I'm most curious about in terms of its changes, especially since a lot of what would be Bard stuff is now available to everyone via Perform skill feats. Hell, maybe Bards can select a perform skill feat in place of a class feat?

Liberty's Edge

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm kinda worried about the idea of the Bard being a full caster, largely because I love bards but hate full casters... It's definitely the class I'm most curious about in terms of its changes, especially since a lot of what would be Bard stuff is now available to everyone via Perform skill feats. Hell, maybe Bards can select a perform skill feat in place of a class feat?

My bet is they'll get extra Skill Feats and Skill Ranks much like a Rogue does, though in lesser numbers than a Rogue, and probably some incentive to put them into Performance.


So, Bard today?

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