Wielding a Large bastard sword. Worth the tradeoff?


Advice


Building a barbarian, and thougth it'd be interesting to build one that won/found a bastard sword of Large size. If I take the EWP feat for it, I could wield it two-handed at a -2. With enlarge person that'd mean I was doing 3d8, which sounds nice! If I'm raging I'd get a +2 to-hit which offsets the -2, but I'm not positive if the increase in damage is worth it. Thoughts?

J


You might recognise AMIRI from the artwork in the core rule book (among others). She does this.

In terms of power (damage per round), it's totally not worth it. 1d8 is approximately 1d6+1. -2 to hit tends to be a lot more powerful than those extra 3 damage points.


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Assuming this isn't for PFS, Irongrip Gauntlets might be of interest, so long as there isn't any other item you want for your hand slot.


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The real reason to use a oversized bastard sword is to abuse size machanics. Large bastard sword 2d8 damage --> large bastard sword with the impact enchantment 3d8 --> enlarge person spell with a large sized impact bastard sword 4d8.
Now vital strike feat chain seems viable at 8d8 then 12d8 and finally 16d8 weapon damage. Add furious finish to deal max weapon damage.


It's *never* worth doing at low level. At higher level...maybe.

Notes:

* You can use a bastardsword two handed as a martial weapon (so youdon't need EWP or an opalescent white pyramid).

* The difference between an Enlarged large bastardsword and an Enlarged greatsword is 3d8 vs 2d8. -- So you're getting a ~4.5 damage gain for the -2 to attack, and a ~9 point damage gain if you have Vital Strike. Needless to say, this gets better and better the higher level you get.

-- If you have Vital Strike and you're routinely Enlarged, the large weapon has better math working for it than Power Attack does, and isn't too bad even if you don't.

fel_horfrost wrote:
...enlarge person spell with a large sized impact bastard sword 4d8....

Pretty sure Paizo isn't letting Enlarge and Impact stack anymore.


fel_horfrost wrote:
...enlarge person spell with a large sized impact bastard sword 4d8....
Pretty sure Paizo isn't letting Enlarge and Impact stack anymore.

To the best of my knowledge virtual size increases and true size increases stack. So if you are holding a large sized impact bastard sword when you get the enlarge person effect it should become a huge sized impact bastard sword dealing gargantuan bastard sword damage because of the impact property.


you could go with a butchers axe 3d6 damage.


fel_horfrost wrote:
fel_horfrost wrote:
...enlarge person spell with a large sized impact bastard sword 4d8....
Pretty sure Paizo isn't letting Enlarge and Impact stack anymore.
To the best of my knowledge virtual size increases and true size increases stack. So if you are holding a large sized impact bastard sword when you get the enlarge person effect it should become a huge sized impact bastard sword dealing gargantuan bastard sword damage because of the impact property.

This is correct.


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Butcher's Axe!!! That thing needs its own heavy metal entrance music every time it is mentioned.


Effortless Lace is another way to reduce oversized weapon penalties.

Once you can negate the penalties it is a nice way to boost damage, especially with the tactics fel_horfrost outlined.


it averages +2 damage for -2 accuracy, and the trade between accuracy is 1 accuracy is worth about 2 damage. Thus it's a net loss. Late levels if you have SO MUCH extra accuracy that your second attack is hitting on a 2 then accuracy means a lot less to you and any damage is a good deal.


Be a Tiefling with big arms... There is no penalty for using a size large Bastard Sword. Zero drawbacks other than you have to be a disgusting Tiefling.


As a player of a character optimised in vital strike and having done a battle with extreme luck (not a feat, I was lucky on my dice rolls), I would advice against losing any to-hit bonus. I would (in your place) go for a falchion and aim for either improved critical or a +1 keen falchion.

Your main damage as a barbarian (without going all-in vital striking) is your bonus to damage, which power attack, rage and most importantly crits will boost. With improved crit'ed falchion, you can guarantee a 15 higher will hit, regardless of your hit bonus (useful for the attacks you gain later).

TL;DR No, sacrificing to-hit for damage at a ratio lower than power attack is not worth it.


Outside OF PFS it is fairly easy to overcome oversized weapon penalties so that shouldn't be an issue.

If the penalty can't be reduced for some reason, oversized weapons would only be worth it for a vital strike focused build.


I'm not against oversized weapons, but why the Bastard Sword? If you're going to drop a feat, or racial ability, on EWP, why not the Estoc or Falcata? The Estoc can be 1H or 2H, it's finesseable, and has a 18-20/x2. The falcata has a 19-20/x3. OR... The Butcher's Axe!!! Are you only after base damage?

As a Tiefling with big arms, and a Titan Mauler, you can use a size large Butcher's Axe with no penalty to attack. I stole this next bit from Reddit...
petermesmer • 256d
Math:

Base: 3d6 (ave 10.5)
Enlarged: 4d6 (ave 14)
Enlarged+Impact: 6d6 (ave 21)
above + Titan Fighter/Mauler: 8d6 (ave 28)
Vital Strike/Improved/Greater: 16d6, 24d6, 32d6 (ave 56, 84, 112)
In comparison if you're wielding a bastard sword

Base: 1d10 (ave 5.5)
Large weapon wielded 2 handed: 2d8 (ave 9)
with enlarge: 3d8 (ave 13.5)
enlarge + impact: 4d8 (ave 18)
Vital Strike/Improved/Greater: 8d8, 12d8, 16d8 (ave 36, 54, 72)


Thanks for all the feedback! I especially like the Irongrip Gauntlets, which single-handedly solves the problem.

Also love the feat ideas of fel_horfrost as well, I didn't know about some of those!

Of course I'm in favor of improved crits. I'm not interested in a crit-fisher build or I'd be going with a TWF concept. An 18-20 is better than a 19-20, no doubt, but I'm mostly after base damage. Has anyone seen the Berserk anime? The original was a great anime, and I love the idea of building Guts, with his over-sized sword. Cloud from FF7 also comes to mind. Amiri reminded me of all that. I'm playing a wizard right now, and I'm looking forward to playing the polar opposite.

Voodist Monk: The Butchering Axe was my first thought. However, I do not want to be a Titan Mauler because he takes an additional -2 to hit (even with Irongrip gauntlets)--it's making me worse, not better. All the dmg in the world doesn't matter if I can't hit. As a Barbarian I am simply not willing to take a fairly crappy archetype--as a tiefling!--when I could be taking Superstitious or Invulnerable Rager. I still want to be a well-rounded character. I'd prefer the 6d6 dmg to 4d8, but I can live with it.

The only feasible way I can see to not lower my chance to-hit is if I use a 1-handed weapon that I can wield two-handed of a large size (with Irongrip). The bastard sword deals the most base damage, and has a higher crit range than a dwarven waraxe. I can expand that to 18-20 with the improved criticals if I'd like.

I will say the falcata could be interesting. Does anyone know how to calculate the avg dmg, factoring in the expanded crit range? I think it would be 4d8(19-20x2) vs 4d6(19-20x3). I may take improved critical, or I may just buy it.


if its not for pfs see if you can play as a half giant they can use large weapons right off the bat there for you could use a large butchering axe for 4d6 damage then 6d6 with enlarge and 8d6 with impact


Lady-J wrote:
if its not for pfs see if you can play as a half giant they can use large weapons right off the bat there for you could use a large butchering axe for 4d6 damage then 6d6 with enlarge and 8d6 with impact

The book Bloodforge has two more races that can do it (an anti-fey half-giant race w/o psionics and a part-ogre race), as well as a feat that certain types and subtypes (like giant, dwarf, monstrous humanoid, etc) can take a little later (requires +4 BAB iirc)


If you aren't playing pfs I'd recommend playing a fighter with the barbarian vmc. You have the rage to offset the -2 and activate the furious finish feat, the spare feats to pick up the vital strike line, and the advanced weapon training (warrior spirit) to enchant your bastard sword with any enchantment you would like say furious and/or impact. No wizard needed.... Well eventually.
And if you really want to cheese your attack take the mutation warrior archtype to get mutagen to buff your strength too.
And at level seven you can grow wings to fly As Well. That opens up the feat fly by attack. It's like a spring attack that you can use vital strike with. Just saying.... If you are going to specialize in vital strike you might as well be able to use it often and well. All this and you still haven't picked your race or magic items yet. Have fun.


Thought of another trick: Ancestral Weapon. At low levels the +1 will help, as will suddenly having a masterwork weapon for another +1. Should buy me enough time to get to Irongrip.

J


Then again it's a regional trait, and I'd rather have Wayang Spellhunter.


Don't waste a trait on Ancestral Weapon; aside from the nerfage some odd years ago, it's obviated with a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone.


fel_horfrost wrote:

If you aren't playing pfs I'd recommend playing a fighter with the barbarian vmc. You have the rage to offset the -2 and activate the furious finish feat, the spare feats to pick up the vital strike line, and the advanced weapon training (warrior spirit) to enchant your bastard sword with any enchantment you would like say furious and/or impact. No wizard needed.... Well eventually.

And if you really want to cheese your attack take the mutation warrior archtype to get mutagen to buff your strength too.
And at level seven you can grow wings to fly As Well. That opens up the feat fly by attack. It's like a spring attack that you can use vital strike with. Just saying.... If you are going to specialize in vital strike you might as well be able to use it often and well. All this and you still haven't picked your race or magic items yet. Have fun.

Can you take Fly By Attack just because you get a fly speed? It is a Monster Feat, after all. And I have seen specific examples where you are given access to the feat, but I didn't think anyone could take it just because they can fly. The Strix Airborne Ambusher gives you access to Hover and Fly By Attack, but it's a bonus of that archetype, or so I thought.


It says in Monster Feats that players can qualify for them. It's just that monster feats were made with monsters in mind, and it isn't expected for most players to qualify for them, so it's not uncommon to expect to require DM permission to take them.

Airborne Ambusher specifically allows you to take Flyby Attack and Hover with your Fighter Bonus Feats. They normally could not be taken with these bonus feats because they are not Combat Feats.

On a Strix note, they have a few racial feats that require Hover and Flyby-Attack, but Buffeting Wings, Fling, and Snatch-and-Drop themselves are not Monster Feats. Though anyone with wings is allowed to take the Strix feats from Inner Sea Monster Codex, with permission.


Got it. Thanks.


Slim Jim wrote:

It's *never* worth doing at low level. At higher level...maybe.

Notes:

* You can use a bastardsword two handed as a martial weapon (so youdon't need EWP or an opalescent white pyramid).

* The difference between an Enlarged large bastardsword and an Enlarged greatsword is 3d8 vs 2d8. -- So you're getting a ~4.5 damage gain for the -2 to attack, and a ~9 point damage gain if you have Vital Strike. Needless to say, this gets better and better the higher level you get.

-- If you have Vital Strike and you're routinely Enlarged, the large weapon has better math working for it than Power Attack does, and isn't too bad even if you don't.

fel_horfrost wrote:
...enlarge person spell with a large sized impact bastard sword 4d8....
Pretty sure Paizo isn't letting Enlarge and Impact stack anymore.

Maybe I'm missing something but you can't wield a large two handed weapon. You can wield a large one handed weapon two handed. Therefore you need EWP Bastard sword.


Slim Jim wrote:
Don't waste a trait on Ancestral Weapon; aside from the nerfage some odd years ago, it's obviated with a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone.

First of all, apologies to all for the Spellhunter post, that was meant to be in another thread.

To the point: I think you're referring to Heirloom Weapon, which did indeed get massively nerfed because it was OP in many folks' opinion. It came out in the Adventurer's Armory. Ancestral Weapon came out in People of the River, and AFAIK the language has never been modified. It states:

"You have inherited a sacred tribal weapon wielded by your forebears, and you were trained in its use from a young age.

Benefit: Select either cold iron or silver. You begin play with a masterwork melee weapon made of the material of your choice. You must be proficient with this weapon, and its combined cost cannot exceed 500 gp. You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with weapons made of the selected material."

This is effectively a +2 to attack (in addition to strength bonus and BAB) at 1st level, which offsets the -2 for wielding a Large weapon. It does NOT give me proficiency with the weapon, I need to already have it. Now the choice is whether to keep the EWP I took at 1st level--which makes flavorful sense given the trait--or take a -4 on attack rolls for non-proficiency, plus the -2 for wielding a Large weapon. The +2 I get from the trait mitigates some of that, but it's still a -4 total until I get the Ioun stone hopefully somewhere in my second level. For me this means I blow the 1.5k on that, before I can start saving up the 4k I need for the Irongrip Gauntlets. But you're right, is it worth taking the trait? I don't know. I don't think I want to have to pay 1.5k, and better to get proficiency with a trait than with a feat, right?

Since I'm not a half-elf and can't take Ancestral Arms, that leaves me with taking the feat. At least I can't think of anything better.

As far as the Vital Strike chain of feats, I'm starting to agree with N Jolly that the chain of feats is a trap. Vital Strike is a consolation prize for having to move in a round, not a legitimate strategy for combat (unless you're playing mythic). Not worth investing three feats into--I'm going to have Pounce, I'm good. Plus I'd rather take stuff like Fortified Armor Training (which is going to give me a -1 for using the buckler anyway) or extra rage powers.

Those are my thoughts.

J


Lemartes wrote:


Maybe I'm missing something but you can't wield a large two handed weapon. You can wield a large one handed weapon two handed. Therefore you need EWP Bastard sword.

Normally you can't. But the Titan Fighter and Titan Mauler archtypes both allow it. The damage is a little more (enlarged, large, impact is 6d6 vs 4d8) but the accuracy is worse. But also opens up options for Gorum worshippers.


IF you are going for furious finish with vital striking, consider going slayer VMC barbarian.

Furious finish maxes all your variable dice, with slayer you get sneak attack variable dice.

Human +racial heritage + savage critical
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/savage-critical/

means that every time you vital strike you trigger sneak attack

That's a lot feats, maybe its not worth it


You have to be an ogre to take Savage Critical.

Anyways, Vital Strike is pretty lame unless combined with Gorum's divine fighting style, which allows you to use Vital Strike on a charge attack with a greatsword.

Combine it with the Cleave feats and Greater Sunder, qualifying for Weapon Trick: Cleaving Smash and Crush Armor.

Add Rhino Charge to ready a full charge as a standard action.

You have no feats left, even as a Fighter (Strix Airborne Ambusher/Dervish of Dawn for flight and lots of charge related goodness), but you can do some stuff with your greatsword.


Shakalaka wrote:
Lemartes wrote:


Maybe I'm missing something but you can't wield a large two handed weapon. You can wield a large one handed weapon two handed. Therefore you need EWP Bastard sword.
Normally you can't. But the Titan Fighter and Titan Mauler archtypes both allow it. The damage is a little more (enlarged, large, impact is 6d6 vs 4d8) but the accuracy is worse. But also opens up options for Gorum worshippers.

I know this. However, I figured if they were using a bastard sword then they would not be playing one of those archetypes. If so I would use a great sword. Regardless thanks. :)


VoodistMonk wrote:

You have to be an ogre to take Savage Critical.

You cant get it via human and racial heritage? If so, why not ?


You can with racial heritage, I'm stupid. Don't mind me.

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