|
So, say our intrepid band of <Hero's> is facing off against the BBEG. Both sides are in the talking "feeling each other out" phase, waiting for the other to make the first move.
The BBEG makes the first move, fireing off a supernatural ability.
Exactly when is initive rolled? Does the BBEG get off her attack, then roll? Does everyone roll, and go in order as normal? Both sides were ready, waiting for a trigger. Does the trigger happen before everyone gets to move?
On a related note, can you ready an action outside of combat? "I stand arround the corner and as soon as someone comes into site, i shoot them."
Initiative is what decides who goes first.
If the BBEG attacks, everyone aware of BBEG rolls initiative. BBEG has to wait their turn.
You can't get a free extra round by interrupting the GM and saying, "I attack!" after all.
Defining an attack as some sort of out-of-combat, out-of-initiative "trigger" in order to give the BBEG an extra free attack and say it's per the rules is not kosher. If you want the BBEG to get that free bonus attack because they're the BBEG, just be honest with your players and say the BBEG is getting the opening attack because they're the BBEG.
As to the readied action question? Readied action is not how I would interpret the situation.
That sounds like stealth to set up an ambush. The NPC rounds the corner. Makes Perception opposed by the PC's stealth. And if they fail, the PC gets a surprise round.
The readied action version sounds like a player trying to use specific rules to get around abilities they don't have.
The character still has to react in order to take that attack. On successful perception, the NPC who rounded the corner also has to react in order to attack. Who reacts faster? The purpose of initiative is to find that out.
I'm sure someone will turn up and quote the rules, so I'll just give you a quick breakdown.
You can't "make a first move" without first having rolled initiative. If the BBEG used his supernatural ability mid-speech then you could roll Sense Motive vs Bluff to see if the Heroes catch on. If at least one of the Heroes didn't succeed on their Sense Motive check, then a Surprise Round occurs. If there is no reason for anyone to be surprised, as in they're all in "feeling each other out" phase, then it's straight to combat without a surprise round.
And you can't ready an action outside of combat. If a player was standing around the corner, then you would make a Stealth vs Perception test to see if the enemy notices them or not. If they don't, then the player acts in the surprise round while the enemy doesn't. They still have to roll Initiative before they act.
As soon as one party declares an attack you roll initiative before determining that attack. The person declaring the attack just has to wait their turn in the initiative order as they moved too slowly and were preempted.
A common houserule for if two parties are talking to each other and one side wants to attack the other sneakily/suddenly you can roll using alternative skills to perception vs stealth such as bluff vs sense motive (whats that behind you!) or sleight of hand vs perception (to move your hand closer to drawing your spell components pouch to get that speed edge) to determine if there is a the surprise round.
And you can't ready an action outside of combat.
This is true, but ....
If the BBEG and the players were talking, you COULD roll initiative while everyone's talking, and PC's/NPC's could ready actions or hold actions while everyone's talking. This does get complicated though, so if you're new to the system it might be worth not going into this until you're more comfortable with held actions/readied actions/etc.
This would likely mean that if the BBEG or the PCs tried to initiate combat everyone would suddenly get their readied actions of in a weird order (think a western with a Mexican-stand-off ... when someone finally acts everyone dies).
A common houserule for if two parties are talking to each other and one side wants to attack the other sneakily/suddenly you can roll using alternative skills to perception vs stealth such as bluff vs sense motive (whats that behind you!) or sleight of hand vs perception (to move your hand closer to drawing your spell components pouch to get that speed edge) to determine if there is a the surprise round.
I could be wrong (I don't have the relevant book) but I thought paizo actually added this into Ultimate Intrigue (or something). Is that a thing? Or did I mis-hear/read something?
As soon as one party declares an attack you roll initiative before determining that attack. The person declaring the attack just has to wait their turn in the initiative order as they moved too slowly and were preempted.
A common houserule for if two parties are talking to each other and one side wants to attack the other sneakily/suddenly you can roll using alternative skills to perception vs stealth such as bluff vs sense motive (whats that behind you!) or sleight of hand vs perception (to move your hand closer to drawing your spell components pouch to get that speed edge) to determine if there is a the surprise round.
I agree. I think if there is any question about timing, then it suggests that one side was attempting to "surprise" the other side. In those cases, a bluff check opposed by a sense motive or a stealth opposed by perception.
If you completely forego the surprise round then you end up with the awkward.
"GM: Ok, Player A goes first"
"Player A: um, ok what's the BBEG doing?"
"GM: nothing, you go first"
at least with the sense motive/perception route, it's more of
"You can see the BBEG starting to reach for their ceremonial dagger, but you're able to react before they are able to get it out."
If players declared they were waiting for the BBEG to do X then it seems reasonable to atleast give them a bonus on initiative during the surprise round.
As a DM I will often run the surprise round in those circumstances even if everyone is aware since character actions are limited during a surprise round and it gives the start of the combat a more cinematic feel.
|
|
As soon as one party declares an attack you roll initiative before determining that attack. The person declaring the attack just has to wait their turn in the initiative order as they moved too slowly and were preempted.
A common houserule for if two parties are talking to each other and one side wants to attack the other sneakily/suddenly you can roll using alternative skills to perception vs stealth such as bluff vs sense motive (whats that behind you!) or sleight of hand vs perception (to move your hand closer to drawing your spell components pouch to get that speed edge) to determine if there is a the surprise round.
I agree. I think if there is any question about timing, then it suggests that one side was attempting to "surprise" the other side. In those cases, a bluff check opposed by a sense motive or a stealth opposed by perception.
If you completely forego the surprise round then you end up with the awkward.
"GM: Ok, Player A goes first"
"Player A: um, ok what's the BBEG doing?"
"GM: nothing, you go first"at least with the sense motive/perception route, it's more of
"You can see the BBEG starting to reach for their ceremonial dagger, but you're able to react before they are able to get it out."If players declared they were waiting for the BBEG to do X then it seems reasonable to atleast give them a bonus on initiative during the surprise round.
As a DM I will often run the surprise round in those circumstances even if everyone is aware since character actions are limited during a surprise round and it gives the start of the combat a more cinematic feel.
Thanks, this is what i was looking for. I just needed a way to get the order in my head in a more cinematic way.
Even without doing the surprise round, it makes sense that the party is on edge, and as soon as the BBEG makes her move, the party is able to react. The quickest reactions (highest initive) goes first. Basically the same thematically as readying actions to do something as soon as she makes a move.On the other side, she's doing the same in case the party jumps the gun and initiates hostilities first. As soon as they do, she will take the attack she has ready, and the order everyone goes is determined by how fast their reactions (in the form of initive rolls) are.