Fix the Spear


Prerelease Discussion

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Throughout history, spear and shield has been one of the most common fighting styles. However, without an archetype, this has been impossible in Pathfinder, as spears are two-handed weapons. So no Zulus for you. I would like this to change, at least for characters with martial proficiency.

If D&D can change this, so can Pathfinder.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

One-handed spears are called "shortspears" in Pathfinder.


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Howndawg wrote:

Throughout history, spear and shield has been one of the most common fighting styles. However, without an archetype, this has been impossible in Pathfinder, as spears are two-handed weapons. So no Zulus for you. I would like this to change, at least for characters with martial proficiency.

If D&D can change this, so can Pathfinder.

There is a 1-handed short-spear weapon that enables this.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Agreed. The Dora Milaje were rad!


Howndawg wrote:

Throughout history, spear and shield has been one of the most common fighting styles. However, without an archetype, this has been impossible in Pathfinder, as spears are two-handed weapons. So no Zulus for you. I would like this to change, at least for characters with martial proficiency.

If D&D can change this, so can Pathfinder.

The Doru fixed this problem.


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Gisher wrote:
Howndawg wrote:

Throughout history, spear and shield has been one of the most common fighting styles. However, without an archetype, this has been impossible in Pathfinder, as spears are two-handed weapons. So no Zulus for you. I would like this to change, at least for characters with martial proficiency.

If D&D can change this, so can Pathfinder.

The Doru fixed this problem.

Yep if the Doru was in the CRB, and called a spear; the problem would be fixed.

Of course, we don't know how all that stuff will work in the new version.
I do really hope they fix things of this kind. Slash or stab damage types for longsword, shortsword, and scimitars. Bastard sword not an exotic weapon. Also should be slash, or stab.

I'm also aware that the gladius fixes the problem with the short swords damage type, but it should be core.


a spear is a stick made of wood and a pointy end either made of metal. wood, bone, stone or something else.

thus it is a simple weapon to use as the pointy end goes in the other guy or girl or mutant from the plane of tmnt.

however even RW history there is not just one type of spear.
long spear
regular spear
short spear
javelin
doru
various asian styles
various other european styles
various not white/black/hispanic/ portugese but indegnous orifinal people of the north, central and south americas versions of it.

sorry the simple spear is not good enough for you, but might I offer you a deal on one of its younger cousins- Zethamon, arms MErchant of Sigil

the weapon of choice of the spartans was not a simple spear
but the dory
oh and
THIS IS ABSOLAM!!!!


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Howndawg wrote:

Throughout history, spear and shield has been one of the most common fighting styles. However, without an archetype, this has been impossible in Pathfinder, as spears are two-handed weapons. So no Zulus for you. I would like this to change, at least for characters with martial proficiency.

If D&D can change this, so can Pathfinder.

They have the Short Spear for the Zulu Iklwa (and the Okinawan Rochin, other than those two I can't think of a short thrusting spear like that), but yeah I agree. Spear and shield with a standard 6-8 foot thrusting spear was probably the single most common weapon set in history all over the world. Used from prehistory all the way up into the middle ages (and even longer outside of Europe). I found it ironic that there is a Viking archetype for Fighter that correctly focuses on shield use and mentions spear and shield in the flavor text (much more common than the swords or axes they're often identified with), but has no ability to actually use this combination without using a Short Spear, which is a different weapon.

Just say the spear can be used one or two handed. It's a simple fix, and a weird oversight. It's not like it's unbalanced. And doesn't require vikings to use a weapon from a different continent and time period. Will nobody think of the vikings?


Waterhammer wrote:


Of course, we don't know how all that stuff will work in the new version.
I do really hope they fix things of this kind. Slash or stab damage types for longsword, shortsword, and scimitars. Bastard sword not an exotic weapon. Also should be slash, or stab.

I'm also aware that the gladius fixes the problem with the short swords damage type, but it should be core.

Oh yeah, pretty much every bladed weapon should be 'S or P'. Some are more focused on one or the other, but can do both. I can see not giving rapiers or daggers slashing (they could do it, but not all that well) and /maybe/ not giving scimitar/saber piercing (depends on the individual swords, some were too curved to thrust effectively with, others it's just not optimal and still others are just fine to thrust).

Silver Crusade Contributor

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I used the Shield Brace feat for this. It'd be nice to see something like that become more mainstream.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Howndawg wrote:

Throughout history, spear and shield has been one of the most common fighting styles. However, without an archetype, this has been impossible in Pathfinder, as spears are two-handed weapons. So no Zulus for you. I would like this to change, at least for characters with martial proficiency.

If D&D can change this, so can Pathfinder.

They have the Short Spear for the Zulu Iklwa (and the Okinawan Rochin, other than those two I can't think of a short thrusting spear like that), but yeah I agree. Spear and shield with a standard 6-8 foot thrusting spear was probably the single most common weapon set in history all over the world. Used from prehistory all the way up into the middle ages (and even longer outside of Europe). I found it ironic that there is a Viking archetype for Fighter that correctly focuses on shield use and mentions spear and shield in the flavor text (much more common than the swords or axes they're often identified with), but has no ability to actually use this combination without using a Short Spear, which is a different weapon.

Just say the spear can be used one or two handed. It's a simple fix, and a weird oversight. It's not like it's unbalanced. And doesn't require vikings to use a weapon from a different continent and time period. Will nobody think of the vikings?

I homebrew spears to work like bastard swords - they're one-handed martial weapons that can be used two-handed as simple weapons.


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Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:


I homebrew spears to work like bastard swords - they're one-handed martial weapons that can be used two-handed as simple weapons.

That's a pretty good solution, but I still think a one-handed spear should be simple. Spear and shield was used by peasant levies as well as professional warriors after-all. And I don't think they're mechanically unbalanced as one-handed simple... Well ok, it's got a x3 crit which no one-handed simple weapon has, along with d8 damage. So that might be the issue. In the new edition with criticals handled differently it will likely be easier to balance.


Doktor Weasel wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:


I homebrew spears to work like bastard swords - they're one-handed martial weapons that can be used two-handed as simple weapons.
That's a pretty good solution, but I still think a one-handed spear should be simple. Spear and shield was used by peasant levies as well as professional warriors after-all.

So was the English longbow.


Bluenose wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:


I homebrew spears to work like bastard swords - they're one-handed martial weapons that can be used two-handed as simple weapons.
That's a pretty good solution, but I still think a one-handed spear should be simple. Spear and shield was used by peasant levies as well as professional warriors after-all.
So was the English longbow.

True, but they were also required to train with the longbow every Sunday. As far as I know there was no such spear training requirement. But I do see the point. It's perfectly reasonable for it to be martial one-handed.


I may be incorrect, but the English longbow was pretty much the realm of people who trained professional with it, on a daily basis most likely. You wouldn't have had peasants suddenly start using the bow. You might have had peasants who joined the brigade to become an archer. But using the English longbow required an enormous amount of strength, to the point where it deformed the skeleton of the practitioners. That definitely isn't something a peasant is just going to pick up and use out of the blue.


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Spears are supposed to give the wielder a longer reach. That's why they were so successful. Neither the doru nor the shortspear adress that. They are just inferior choices compared to basically any one-handed martial melee weapon.


And daggers as represented in Pathfinder don't address how that was the most common way to kill someone in full plate because cutting and piercing basically didn't work. You had to use blunt force trauma or find a gap in the armor.

This is a game, not a simulation.


Doktor Weasel wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:


I homebrew spears to work like bastard swords - they're one-handed martial weapons that can be used two-handed as simple weapons.
That's a pretty good solution, but I still think a one-handed spear should be simple. Spear and shield was used by peasant levies as well as professional warriors after-all.
So was the English longbow.
True, but they were also required to train with the longbow every Sunday. As far as I know there was no such spear training requirement. But I do see the point. It's perfectly reasonable for it to be martial one-handed.

I see training with a weapon every sunday as being fluff for taking the Weapon Proficiency feat for that weapon. Though I think most peasant levies take 1 level in Warrior once they hit 3rd level.


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My spear gripe is, my god, the hoops one has to go through to trip with a spear (get hip-deep into the Spear Dancing Style feat chain, and then you can take the feat that lets staffs trip). Too much, IMO.

Normally, when a movie comes out, and we get, say, after a Thor movie, tons of "Help my hammer build become Thor!" posts, I end up with an epic case of eyeroll strain, bad enough that it can keep me from driving my car. That said, the Dora Milaje really really made spears look friggin' awesome.

Silver Crusade

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It'd be nice if a spear could specifically be enchanted as a Staff.

They're basically the same thing, only one has a pointy end.


Claxon wrote:
I may be incorrect, but the English longbow was pretty much the realm of people who trained professional with it, on a daily basis most likely. You wouldn't have had peasants suddenly start using the bow. You might have had peasants who joined the brigade to become an archer. But using the English longbow required an enormous amount of strength, to the point where it deformed the skeleton of the practitioners. That definitely isn't something a peasant is just going to pick up and use out of the blue.

Yes and no. I think from place to place and depending on exactly when this could vary.

It was very encouraged for the average English peasant to practice with the long bow. The strength required to use a bow also varied depending on the bow. I think the weakest draw to be considered a war bow would be about 80 lbs. or so. Generally most war bows would be in the 110 - 130 lbs. range from what I've heard.

I've seen people shoot 110-130 lbs bows and they didn't "look" to be strong at least muscle mass wise. Granted strength gains can be very task specific.

Apparently there were even some monsters bows that were up to 240 lbs draw.
I would assume that would be almost exclusively the realm of professional soldiers as you mentioned.

The skeleton deformation is correct such as "bowed" thickened radius and ulna.

Finally, the pay was good if I remember correctly from an account I heard from the Battle of Agincourt.

So it depends. :)


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Redblade8 wrote:
My spear gripe is, my god, the hoops one has to go through to trip with a spear (get hip-deep into the Spear Dancing Style feat chain, and then you can take the feat that lets staffs trip).

No feats are required to trip with a spear.


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Yes, poor initial choice of words on my part. What I actually meant was, "Get the trip quality on a spear."


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As for spears one handed with reach. That would be nice. I can understand rules wise how it might create issues.

I kind of wish there were more ranges in melee. (Yes this won't happen and I'm sure that it would be too complicated for most people's taste. I'd like it though.)

Personal, Short, Medium, Long & Reach

Reach is as it is now. The others are no different from standard range. However, you get some sort of advantage if you have long over medium, short over personal etc. Well that is if you're fighting out in the open.

If you're fighting in a telephone booth personal(ie: dagger) beats long(two-handed sword or maybe a spear if they don't have reach in the rules etc.) so it can go the other way too.

Yeah that could be a mess but just an idea I had. :)


Redblade8 wrote:

My spear gripe is, my god, the hoops one has to go through to trip with a spear (get hip-deep into the Spear Dancing Style feat chain, and then you can take the feat that lets staffs trip). Too much, IMO.

Normally, when a movie comes out, and we get, say, after a Thor movie, tons of "Help my hammer build become Thor!" posts, I end up with an epic case of eyeroll strain, bad enough that it can keep me from driving my car. That said, the Dora Milaje really really made spears look friggin' awesome.

Ummm...you do realize you can trip with a spear innately. Like requires 0 feats to execute.

Have a look at this.

It does have drawbacks. Your spear doesn't have the trip quality, so if you fail you can drop the weapon and the enemy doesn't get a free attempt to trip you in return. You also provoke for doing so, because you don't have the Improved Trip Combat maneuver. But you can trip someone for free with no investment, it just isn't very good.

Edit: Looks like you know.

Redblade8 wrote:
Yes, poor initial choice of words on my part. What I actually meant was, "Get the trip quality on a spear."

But ultimately the trip quality isn't very useful. It only allows you to drop your spear so the enemy can't trip you if you fail by 10 or more.


@Claxon: Yes, as I said above, poor wording on the part of my initial post.


I am enjoying reading this thread.


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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I am enjoying reading this thread.

Getting into the spear-it of things?


QuidEst wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I am enjoying reading this thread.
Getting into the spear-it of things?

Wow, you got the point of this pretty quick.


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QuidEst wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I am enjoying reading this thread.
Getting into the spear-it of things?

It has piked my interest.


KahnyaGnorc wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I am enjoying reading this thread.
Getting into the spear-it of things?
It has piked my interest.

Well, we have had a good stab at it so far.


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Eben TheQuiet wrote:
KahnyaGnorc wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I am enjoying reading this thread.
Getting into the spear-it of things?
It has piked my interest.
Well, we have had a good stab at it so far.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm going to post something on-topic.

Many years ago I was running a bronze-age themed game where I implemented the "spears and longspears are one-handed martial weapons that can be used as two-handed simple weapons" houserule. It turned out to be surprisingly unintrusive. It made it much easier to use spears for flavor reasons, and the addition of a general-purpose one-handed reach weapon proved to be a non-issue in actual play. After the game concluded, I just kept the houserule on the books, and it's been there ever since without causing issue.


Claxon wrote:

And daggers as represented in Pathfinder don't address how that was the most common way to kill someone in full plate because cutting and piercing basically didn't work. You had to use blunt force trauma or find a gap in the armor.

This is a game, not a simulation.

Half-swording worked perfectly fine.


Threeshades wrote:
Claxon wrote:

And daggers as represented in Pathfinder don't address how that was the most common way to kill someone in full plate because cutting and piercing basically didn't work. You had to use blunt force trauma or find a gap in the armor.

This is a game, not a simulation.

Half-swording worked perfectly fine.

You're kind of only demonstrating my point more though.

Sure you could half-sword to simulate using a dagger.

You still had to use a special technique to damage someone in full plate using piercing damage. Slashing damage was ineffective. Blunt force could be very effective.

The game doesn't represent this nature at all. It can't and wont.

Not everything will be represented accurately (in fact almost nothing is) and at a certain point you just have to accept that this isn't reality.


Kalindlara wrote:
I used the Shield Brace feat for this. It'd be nice to see something like that become more mainstream.

I'd like to see this be a core feat for anyone with trained or better spear proficiency.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
KahnyaGnorc wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I am enjoying reading this thread.
Getting into the spear-it of things?
It has piked my interest.
Well, we have had a good stab at it so far.

It's definitely not something I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Howndawg wrote:

Throughout history, spear and shield has been one of the most common fighting styles. However, without an archetype, this has been impossible in Pathfinder, as spears are two-handed weapons. So no Zulus for you. I would like this to change, at least for characters with martial proficiency.

If D&D can change this, so can Pathfinder.

yes i really really want decent spear rules

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Threeshades wrote:
Spears are supposed to give the wielder a longer reach. That's why they were so successful. Neither the doru nor the shortspear adress that. They are just inferior choices compared to basically any one-handed martial melee weapon.

that's highly debatable, spears paticularly short spears are highly effective weapons, i would choose one over a sword in many situations

The Exchange

here we go, link to older thread...

Why don't spears get any love

and stealing a post from over on that thread, complete with the links...

Gaurwaith wrote:

One handed spear usage, spear & shield vs sword and shield. The swords are quite similar to viking style swords, although viking swords might have favored close range draw cuts more, based on extrapolation from the shape of the pommel.

(same)

Melee combat, spears used one handed, spears and shields vs swords and shields. Swords outnumber spears close to 2:1 and odds are fairly even.

Two handed spear usage. Spear vs longsword, no shields.
(same)

Two handed spear usage. Spear vs sabre, no shields.

Spear vs sidesword (essentially a broadsword, a one handed cut and thrust medium length sword with good hand protection).

A person well trained in short sword fighting going against a spear for the first time. No shields.

The Exchange

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Historically, Spears are the melee weapon of choice and swords are side arms.

In Fantasy fiction (and art!) though, we tend to forget that - which is why we get such a distorted view in our games.

Even after the invention of fire-arms, the weapons used on the battlefield still included spears. (That's why the "transition period" to gunpowder weapons is called "Pike-and-shot" and not "Broadsword-and-shot"). Even after we get good firearms, the bayonet was invented - not the musket ax.

I expect in a few hundred years, fantasy games set in our current time will have the heroes fighting mass battles with armies armed with pistols... not rifles and sub-machineguns... The hero Patton charging into combat riding on his tank, striking down enemies (who are poking out of their tank hatch trying to get a shot at him with their pistols) with his pearl handled revolver...

The Exchange

Suggestions for fixing the Spear in PFS...

1) Increase the damage they do. Bump the damage dice up by one step.

Long Spears/Spears do 1d10, short spears do 1d8. Javlins do 1d8 (I think they should do 1d10 like they do in RuneQuest, but let's keep this simple). (And while you are at it, bump up the damage for Slings to 1d6...)

2) Make One Handed Spear a marital weapon, while keeping the 2-H Long Spear a Simple weapon. That way you can have people fighting one handed with a spear (the way most of the armies in history did).


nosig wrote:

Historically, Spears are the melee weapon of choice and swords are side arms.

In Fantasy fiction (and art!) though, we tend to forget that - which is why we get such a distorted view in our games.

Even after the invention of fire-arms, the weapons used on the battlefield still included spears. (That's why the "transition period" to gunpowder weapons is called "Pike-and-shot" and not "Broadsword-and-shot"). Even after we get good firearms, the bayonet was invented - not the musket ax.

I expect in a few hundred years, fantasy games set in our current time will have the heroes fighting mass battles with armies armed with pistols... not rifles and sub-machineguns... The hero Patton charging into combat riding on his tank, striking down enemies (who are poking out of their tank hatch trying to get a shot at him with their pistols) with his pearl handled revolver...

I think that already happens in Western RPGs (RPGs based on the US 1800s Wild West). The Pistol is the weapon of choice, with gunslingers, Sheriffs, Marshals, Rangers, Outlaws, and the rest.

I think the Rifle was historically more effective back then (and now).


Like the sword, a pistol is something you can casually carry with you at all times, while a spear or rifle is something that has better range, but is far more inconvenient.

A spear is generally better than a sword on the battlefield, but a longbow is better still (if you know how to use it) and it's hard to carry both at once.


Claxon wrote:
I may be incorrect, but the English longbow was pretty much the realm of people who trained professional with it, on a daily basis most likely. You wouldn't have had peasants suddenly start using the bow. You might have had peasants who joined the brigade to become an archer. But using the English longbow required an enormous amount of strength, to the point where it deformed the skeleton of the practitioners. That definitely isn't something a peasant is just going to pick up and use out of the blue.

The English longbow, maybe.

The bow, in general, is used by all kinds of troops, including levies, and for hunters (and fishers) of all kind, since forever.

Truth is an axe is not more difficult to use than a morning star, or a spear for that matter. The reason why axe is martial and morning star is not, is because axe is a better weapon in game stats. Just like Bastard VS longsword


Spears come in three 'weights' in game terms ... the run-of-the-mill spear (1d8, x3 crit, throwable) should be 1-handed. The shortspear is light one-handed, leaving the longspear as 2-handed. Leave 'em all as Simple weapons.

Granted, I'm not clear on how weapon proficiencies are going to work.


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I am a French specialized in History. I can indeed confirm that the English Longbow was far from easy to use. They practiced a lot, and it was a good way for a peasant to increase their sold as well as their social respectability. On the other hands we got Crossbow bought at a high price, very proud of our new toy that can transform a peasant into a murdering machine with almost no training. Well, we just get butchered because the longbows when fire in volley got a better range, and the English were well trained.

And of’course It did not help to decide to make a charge of heavy cavalry into a muddy terrain. Azincourt is probably one of the worst battle of the French history, at least before the last century. We were so proud of our numbers and gear that England just wiped the floor with us. It is basically the story of a 3 level two cavaliers with noble and rich background against a lvl 6 ranger with almost no gear, quick fire, and favored enemy French in his expert environnement.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

one thing i love about the stormlight archive novels are that spears are not a simple weapon there a trained one that masters can use to great effect.


I just have a house rule that allows Martial Weapon Proficiency to use the spear as a one-handed weapon.


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All weapons should have simple and martial proficiency (and probably expert, master and legendary).

Using a sword like a club is not as good as swordplay and fencing, but a metal club with an edge is still a damn good club.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:

All weapons should have simple and martial proficiency (and probably expert, master and legendary).

Using a sword like a club is not as good as swordplay and fencing, but a metal club with an edge is still a damn good club.

This is what I'm pushing too. A dagger, a bow, a greataxe, a staff, a rapier, a weapon of any type should all get progressively better as your proficiency rank increases, and not just in attack bonus.

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