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Seeing the Fighter Teaser makes me excited to think about the changes to my favorite classes. But even more so for the classes I could never get into.
For me, despite loving the concept behind the class, I don’t like actually playing or building Bards much. And I mostly attribute that to a lack of choices and customization outside of what skills I want to put all of my ranks in. The lack of any Bonus Feats, small number of Spells Known, and the linear progression of Bardic Performances make it feel roughly on par with a Cleric in terms of how many choices I get when leveling up after 1st.
Later books added in more options such as Archetypes, Masterpieces, and “Finale” Spells that fixed this for me to some extent, but with 2E and Class Feats I feel like there’s a chance to address the heart of the issue directly.
That being that every Bard uses Bardic Performances exactly the same way. There’s no real choices about it in combat. There’s no reason NOT to be Inspiring Courage. Even when you unlock Dirge of Doom or Inspire Heroics, you’re powerful enough that you should be able to keep the effects of 2 or more songs active at once.
I’d like for Bard Feats to work like a Barbarian’s Rage Powers that modify their Rage, or the Rogue’s Rogue Talents that modify their Sneak Attack. I want to be able to pick something every even level that makes how my Bard performs different from another Bard. After all, why does anyone who chooses to play a guitar, sing a limerick, or shake their hips always give their audience the same bonus? Maybe instead of giving your allies a bonus to hit and damage or to skills, you could have a Bard Feat that lets you to give them a bonus to AC, or Saves, or the DCs of Spells, or whatnot. Then add in the options that let you use your performance to debuff those stats on enemies, use some specific spell-like abilities, or even other completely new ideas. That way we can have debuff-focused Bards without needing to take a specific archetype. Or create Bards that can truly be customized to help fill any role in the party.
I’m aware that the playtest book is so far along that nothing said here could realistically have any impact on something as important as how major class features works, but it is still fun to speculate. What would you like to see changed about the class?
Yeah. When Mesmerist came out, I was thrilled to finally have what I actually wanted from Bard. I didn't really think about it too much, but Bard's lack of customization was probably a pretty big part of that.
Well, if Power Attack is any indication, Inspire Courage will probably be nerfed some in order to compensate for adding other valuable performance aspects.
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As someone who thinks the idea that Bard's lack customization is nutso, I like your ideas about Bardic performances.
More customizeable bards would be awesome. A bard that would be flavored as a 4E warlord helping control the battlefield and marshalling / directing their allies would be awesome.
As for their magic side, I still really like the alternate bard magic system Monte Cook did in a third party 3.x supplement, Songs And Souls Of Power. Maybe further expanded and built on to be able to stand up as the equivalent of a full caster with 10 spell tiers.
Please give a list of different performances to choose from. Not every bard should have the same.
More choices for performances wouldn't be a bad idea.
There's not much else I would outright change, since I like the bard already. I wouldn't mind the performances and the bard's spellcasting being intermingled in some way, though.
Not sure how that would function, but maybe as a different delivery method for spells, kinda like how familiars can be given a spell to deliver?
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I find it a bit odd that you guys don’t see bards as customizable... There are bard archetypes that buff magic, that allow the entire party to see through mist, build things out of water, that allow them to apply mind control to undead or to do pranks, to be detectives or self-buffers like Dervish Dancer and Archeaologist.
As someone who keeps playing different types of PF1 bards and discovering fun new ways to play them... They’re pretty customizable as it is, and bad ass too. Bards are my favorite class. I have high hopes that we’ll see something cool for them in PF2.
Hmm
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I find it a bit odd that you guys don’t see bards as customizable... There are bard archetypes that buff magic, that allow the entire party to see through mist, build things out of water, that allow them to apply mind control to undead or to do pranks, to be detectives or self-buffers like Dervish Dancer and Archeaologist.
As someone who keeps playing different types of PF1 bards and discovering fun new ways to play them... They’re pretty customizable as it is, and bad ass too. Bards are my favorite class. I have high hopes that we’ll see something cool for them in PF2.
Hmm
I feel that the range of Bard archetypes masks the issue without really solving it. The archetypes almost never stack, so you end up with just one choice, made at first level. You got a ton of choices for that, but it was still limited customization.
My vote YES to being able to pick your songs instead of the fixed progression. Paizo moved away from that design method very quickly!
The main thing I want is for Masterpieces (if they exist in 2e) to have clear rules regarding how they interact if at all with bardic performance.
I'm Utterly astounded that no one has mentioned the possibility of there being a replacement for performance. I think it's good to have a jack of all trades medium BaB caster class for the charismatic hero or generic adventurer role but the bard as is is just so campy, it's as though someone designed this singing dancing weenie as a deliberate parody of fantasy games. There's nothing wrong with singing and dancing outside of combat, but while your friends are being impaled? Come on.
I doubt performance will ever be removed from the game but at the very least an optional replacement would make this class viable in less silly settings.
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I'm Utterly astounded that no one has mentioned the possibility of there being a replacement for performance. I think it's good to have a jack of all trades medium BaB caster class for the charismatic hero or generic adventurer role but the bard as is is just so campy, it's as though someone designed this singing dancing weenie as a deliberate parody of fantasy games. There's nothing wrong with singing and dancing outside of combat, but while your friends are being impaled? Come on.
I doubt performance will ever be removed from the game but at the very least an optional replacement would make this class viable in less silly settings.
As it is, Pathfinder allows you to use Perform in ways which are far from "singing dancing weenie". Your Bard can use Peform to crack jokes, tell stories, recite poems, do theatrics and any other things as long as you and your GM are fine with them falling under Perform. Heck, I'd easily let my PCs use Perform by means of being a slightly over-the-top battlefield commander.
"There are two kind of people in this dungeon, those who are dead, and those who are about to die, so let's kick this demon and get out of here!" is not only Profession (soldier), but also Peform (oratory). Just ask anybody who has ever served under a charismatic military commander.
Also, dancing and Bards = whirling dervishes and all the countless "dancers with weapons" tropes ranging from Elven Wardancers in WFRP to Far Eastern artists-assassins. I mean, the sky is the limit with bards.
I'm Utterly astounded that no one has mentioned the possibility of there being a replacement for performance.
That's because OD&D based bards on...
Assurancetourix (or Cacaphonix in some translations) who is the bard in the Asterix comics.
This said, I am sure than our pals at Paizo will do wonderful things with the bard class. They will be fighter/magic-user/thieves with music (or other types of performance) thrown in on top. I suspect they have redesigned the bard from the ground up. Time will tell.
Even PF1 had the option of using Oratory for your performance which you can more or less skin as your bard barking orders/insults like a color sergeant or whatever.I'm Utterly astounded that no one has mentioned the possibility of there being a replacement for performance. I think it's good to have a jack of all trades medium BaB caster class for the charismatic hero or generic adventurer role but the bard as is is just so campy, it's as though someone designed this singing dancing weenie as a deliberate parody of fantasy games. There's nothing wrong with singing and dancing outside of combat, but while your friends are being impaled? Come on.
I doubt performance will ever be removed from the game but at the very least an optional replacement would make this class viable in less silly settings.
This is the most common counterargument I face. However, the very first performance on the list is countersong, it is explicitly musical and requires singing or an instrument. I'm sure there are similar examples on the list of performances but I will not stare too deeply into that abyss.
The whole idea that you can do everything as an inspiring speach or battlefield command is simply incorrect by the book, unless I'm missing something.
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Even PF1 had the option of using Oratory for your performance which you can more or less skin as your bard barking orders/insults like a color sergeant or whatever.I'm Utterly astounded that no one has mentioned the possibility of there being a replacement for performance. I think it's good to have a jack of all trades medium BaB caster class for the charismatic hero or generic adventurer role but the bard as is is just so campy, it's as though someone designed this singing dancing weenie as a deliberate parody of fantasy games. There's nothing wrong with singing and dancing outside of combat, but while your friends are being impaled? Come on.
I doubt performance will ever be removed from the game but at the very least an optional replacement would make this class viable in less silly settings.
This is the most common counterargument I face. However, the very first performance on the list is countersong, it is explicitly musical and requires singing or an instrument. I'm sure there are similar examples on the list of performances but I will not stare too deeply into that abyss.
The whole idea that you can do everything as an inspiring speach or battlefield command is simply incorrect by the book, unless I'm missing something.
Countersong requires Perform (keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing)
Distraction requires Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory)
Every other Bardic Performance, including the ones that actually matter (Inspire Competence/Courage), are not tied to any specific Perform skill.
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I really the skill monkey buff/debuff role, but I find the Bard lacking in Pathfinder. 5E got an awesome Bard, with 9th spells progression and the ability to debuff the dice of his opponents with his reaction. PF1 got the Mesmerist, that sneaky guy with his eyes powers and an awesome spell list full of evil tricks. The Warlord in 4E had this feeling of charismatic leader, and even if I did not like the game I liked the idea behind the class.
I hope we will see a little bit of all of that in the Perfomances, and « style » we can play with our Bards.
Maybe instead of giving your allies a bonus to hit and damage or to skills, you could have a Bard Feat that lets you to give them a bonus to AC, or Saves, or the DCs of Spells, or whatnot.
This is part of the reason why I love the Solacer bard from the Healer's Handbook; they get a bardic performance called Inspired Tenacity, that gives all of their allies a bonus (albeit not a scaling one, unfortunately) on all saves against mind-affecting effects (so most really bad debuffs), poisons, and diseases, as well as automatically stabilizing any allies that go unconscious.
More Bardic Performances that are useful in combat and give different bonuses would be a huge thumbs up from me.
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I like the customization.
I sort of hate the hate bards get as being "weenies" idk I grew up with alot of characters with powerful musical themes and abilities not to mention in the setting there is a clear effect that all of this "silly singing and dancing"is empowering, healing, effecting the tides of combat. Saying all a bard does is sing and dance is like saying all a wizard does is wiggle his fingers and play with eyes of newt.
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Kubo (from Kubo and the Two Strings) is a bard. Demyx from Kingdom Hearts is a bard. The blind musician assassins from Kung Fu Hustle and Katayanagi Twins from Scott Pilgrim are bards. All do awesome powerful things with magic music and aren't weenies.
Edward from FF4 is a parody of a bard, not the core bard archetype. You just need to shift how you think of them.
One of the things that disappointed me most about D&D 5e was how they reduced the myriad different bardic performance options to a single universal "bardic inspiration dice" mechanic. Bards are killer from a mechanical standpoint in 5E, but they lack the awesome flavour of PF1's bard. I'm really looking forward to seeing how PF2 does bards.
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Sona from League of Legends is the poster-child for bard. I want a bard archetype where she uses weaponized music as her primary weapon.
I dream of defeating Evil with the power of HEAVY METAL!
Can be an archetype of the bard or something similar, but i would like to see the class get decent pet options.
Honestly, if im playing PF, im playing with a "pet". Can be a familiar or AC or eidolon or phantom... hell even a "NPC", but im certain to have one of these by my side. Or im not sitting to play PF.
Im hoping bards in PF 2.0 come with more options here.
Can be an archetype of the bard or something similar, but i would like to see the class get decent pet options.
Honestly, if im playing PF, im playing with a "pet". Can be a familiar or AC or eidolon or phantom... hell even a "NPC", but im certain to have one of these by my side. Or im not sitting to play PF.
Im hoping bards in PF 2.0 come with more options here.
From what I read in the Skills blog post, anyone is capable of getting an Animal Companion if they invest in Nature and pick up the corresponding skill feat, so hypothetically anyone could get a pet if they wanted to
I always envisioned Inspire Courage to just be that you enter the fight with higher morale from the bard performing in between fights. That way you are not singing or dancing during combat.
And now I'm stuck thinking "if you think KH is kiddy, you haven't seen half the final bosses in Kirby." Because sometimes a game just produces a meme that the rating board didn't get the 100% ending (Kirby 64 was originally released as an E-rated game. Re-releases are E10+ for animated blood)
To be fair, the ESRB didn't add E10+ to their rating system until 2005, and frankly I doubt that they're gonna slap Kirby 64, which came out in 2000, with a T rating.
Speaking of KH, Kingdom Hearts 2 was my favorite game growing up and it's part of the reason why I love gish classes like the Magus
I've always liked the Bard because of the jack of all trades set up. That includes an arcane and divine spell list; albeit limited. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Id love a bard to get a few spells from all 4 lists!
Y'all might be right, but damn if I dont hope y'all are wrong.
You know, this raises some interesting ideas. I actually prefer the Skald to the Bard, and part of that may be that it gets powers to pass on. But it also suffers from not working in every party. Maybe the Skald could be collapsed into the Bard, so you can have raging songs and powers but retrain them to more generalist performances if need be.
Honestly, psychic totally makes sense for something that feels "between" all three of the Arcane / Divine / Nature trio, especially with psychic likely expanded to be more of a combo Telepathy / Psychometabolism / Clairsentience flavor. Healing feels at home there, especially Druidic-style regen-over-time as opposed to burst healing. Skaldish rage-manipulation feels at home there as spells. All the emotion buffs and debuffs as well as provoking / aggro stuff feels at home there.
The dev Mark mentioned a bard being all out of spells in the fighter preview thread. So it's confirmed bards are casters. All out of spells being significant implies to me that they are more than a half caster, good chance they become a full casters. At least we know they don't exclusively focus on performance instead of casting.
Well with everything as a feat then at least bards will get to pick what bardic performances he will have.
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Well with everything as a feat then at least bards will get to pick what bardic performances he will have.
Everything isn't a Feat, there are still Class features that everyone has (all Rogues have Sneak Attack, for example). Which is not to say Performances won't be pick-able, they could be, just that its not a requirement of the system.
Personally, I suspect Inspire Courage (or the equivalent) will be baseline, but more specialized Performances (like Suggestion or most Masterpieces) will be available as Bard Feats.
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If Inspire Courage is selectable and not baseline, then every performance needs to be balanced against it and just as good as it. Both so inexperienced players and first time bards don't screw themselves, and so people who might know better aren't having to make a huge sacrifice and live with the knowledge of being a bad bard just so they can play a bard with different thematics.
I feel like most of the old performances wouldn't make great choices anyway, since they tend to be too situational to ever know if you will use.
I love bards. I would play one in every game, if I could get away with it.