I would like some feedback from players and GMs alike who used the playable aliens (aliens with PC stats). Are they viable to the same level as both the Starfinder and Pathfinder races, or are they so "nerfed" that they end up being unplayable?
The formian soldier in my campaign is doing just fine in her current form.
I got a dragonkin operative and a skittermander technomancer working as partners. Other than squeezing through regular sized doors and corridors, everything is peachy.
They don't seem stronger or weaker in comparison to the CRB races. Kinda plain, actually. I wish someone would pick the less mundane races, like the floaty brain and the gas monstruosities, but eh.
I've no idea why any of them would be 'so "nerfed" as to be unplayable,' where is that coming from? :/ I'm running a Maraquoi Solarian who I'm quite enjoying so far.
I've no idea why any of them would be 'so "nerfed" as to be unplayable,' where is that coming from? :/ I'm running a Maraquoi Solarian who I'm quite enjoying so far.
Some aliens are severely downgraded from their "bestiary" entries.
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And? That has nothing to do with whether they're playable. Obviously they get all kinds of powers and feats as PCs that they wouldn't get as "monsters." If they keep the flavour and stay balanced with other player races they're fulfilling their role.
I would love to play a bonded Dragonkin sometime, I think. Or an Urog. Some of the larger, more "alien" aliens would present interesting challenges.
And? That has nothing to do with whether they're playable. Obviously they get all kinds of powers and feats as PCs that they wouldn't get as "monsters." If they keep the flavour and stay balanced with other player races they're fulfilling their role.
I would love to play a bonded Dragonkin sometime, I think. Or an Urog. Some of the larger, more "alien" aliens would present interesting challenges.
What I mean is that the playable version can be seen as "severely nerfed", to the point of being called "unplayable".
You pointed out the Dragonkin, well...
- no natural weapon
- no fire immunity
- no paralysis immunity
- very weak breath weapon
- very slow fly speed
I understand the balance, BUT what I'm saying is that this balance might be problematic for some players. Y'know, the usual "I'm not playing this race due to sucking now" kind of argument.
Speaking of the Dragonkin, I actually wanted them to be nerfed. Yes, you've read that correctly:
- Medium instead of Large; dude, they literally said that some Dragonkin used DNA engineering to reduce their size, but... apparently, not enough to got from Large to Medium and just smaller-than-Large-but-still-larger-than-Medium-kinda Large. Yeah... talk about a letdown...
- Replace the breath weapon by the bite attack; I get the breath weapon being treated like a natural weapon, but... get yourself a more reliable Dragon Gland and you're set.
- Gliding wings instead of full flight; the slow fly speed is rather crippling, so... just give me glide instead.
Ok, maybe that's too much, again, "DNA engineering", it would have been "normal", because smaller Dragonkin could have lost some abilities with the reduced size.
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What I mean is that the playable version can be seen as "severely nerfed", to the point of being called "unplayable".
"Unplayable" != "less interesting to power-gamers who want a bunch of OP racial traits on top of all the powers they get as heroes." I'm perfectly happy get a race that can fly, has a breath weapon, has the bonding ability and gets the reach advantages of Large size. I don't get the mindset that is gnashing its teeth about getting those things because one-off monsters with no player abilities get other things.
I understand the balance
Okay. Understanding the balance would seem to be different from calling race "unplayable" for not being wildly over-powered relative to other player races, I think. If you would like a different concept for this or that race, that has nothing to do with whether the ones in the AA are "viable."
Speaking of the Dragonkin, I actually wanted them to be nerfed.
Actually it just sounds to me like you want to homebrew a different player race. You can totally do that if you want to, the one you describe sounds just as interesting.
What I mean is that the playable version can be seen as "severely nerfed", to the point of being called "unplayable"."Unplayable" != "less interesting to power-gamers who want a bunch of OP racial traits on top of all the powers they get as heroes." I'm perfectly happy get a race that can fly, has a breath weapon, has the bonding ability and gets the reach advantages of Large size. I don't get the mindset that is gnashing its teeth about getting those things because one-off monsters with no player abilities get other things.
Scroll down a bit, I'm stating my reasons.
I understand the balanceOkay. Understanding the balance would seem to be different from calling race "unplayable" for not being wildly over-powered relative to other player races, I think. If you would like a different concept for this or that race, that has nothing to do with whether the ones in the AA are "viable."
I used the term "Unplayable" to refer to "underpowered". I do not know how the dev team selects which ability remains for a playable alien, so this shift can make them "unappealing" to players.
Speaking of the Dragonkin, I actually wanted them to be nerfed.Actually it just sounds to me like you want to homebrew a different player race. You can totally do that if you want to, the one you describe sounds just as interesting.
Ok, I'm quoting:
Many starfaring dragonkin families have resorted to genetic engineering to reduce their size to better fit in the narrow corridors of space stations and starships, and thanks to their near-telepathic bond with their partners, no humanoid of the legion would dream of flying a starfighter without her dragonkin copilot.
Emphasis mine. You would think that by "reducing their size", they would have mecanically gone from Large to Medium. That was not the case. It sounds good on paper, but it doesn't pay off in actual gameplay. Furthermore, size... kinda matters more in Starfinder than in Pathfinder, with all the buildings, spaceships and factories.
The breath weapon... is weaker than a level 1 pistol. Yeah, yeah, I know that it scales like a natural weapon, but still... Look, instead of giving me something that is usually on par with heavy weapons, just give me something standard. I mean, the vesk have a bite attack, so... why not the dragonkin?
The fly speed... is pretty useless. I mean, I walk faster than I fly. So again, just give me the ability to glide and I'll fly in some other form.
Right now, I'm saying the size, breath weapon and fly speed as some sort of penalties, when they could have been replaced by useful racial traits on par with the other races. Finally, going back to the "genetic engineering" part, that would have made perfect sense. "Oh, you're a modified Dragonkin, so THAT's why you can't breath fire."... but right now it's "Oh, you're a modified Dragonkin, so THAT's why you can't bite." ???
Yeah, I don't get it either XD
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I used the term "Unplayable" to refer to "underpowered".
I know. It still doesn't make sense. You're still basically trying to justify begrudging having good abilities "because the monsters" and that's fundamentally just wrong-headed AFAICS.
(EDIT: Basically when someone wants to talk about what's "underpowered," always ask the question "compared to what"? Compared to other players of comparable levels? Compared to the threats one is likely to encounter at any given level? If the answer to this is "my level 1 character can't compete with the stats of the CR9 monster in the book" you're dealing with silliness. Act accordingly.)
I do not know how the dev team selects which ability remains for a playable alien
Doesn't seem all that hard to figure out to me. Try thinking "would having a 120 ft. flight speed and a 9d6 innate breath weapon make a character ridiculously over-powered"? If so, chances are you cannot have those things and they will make changes to the playable version for that reason. Most other such decisions have similarly clear rationales.
The fly speed... is pretty useless.
The flight ability is surely more about positioning than speed. You are basically getting the equivalent of early-level Defy Gravity as an innate racial ability. I think that's a pretty freaking incredible thing to grouse about, personally. And instead you want something that (IIRC about Glide) won't allow you to change elevation or give you as much flexibility in Zero-G? *shrug* You do you.
The breath weapon... is weaker than a level 1 pistol.
A level 1 laser pistol does 1d4 F damage, has limited charges and doesn't have a cone effect. Casting about for reasons to begrudge stuff like this makes a person say extremely silly things.
The breath weapon of course is significantly toned down from the CR9 Dragonkin we see in the "monster" stats (who you will note line up exactly with the stats of a "standard" dragon gland), but basically an innate racial breath weapon is a bonus any way you slice it. And yes it does scale like a natural weapon, doesn't it? Isn't that nice? I'd far rather have it than a Bite personally, although there are trade-offs, it seems to me that if having Bite instead is really important you could probably switch one out for the other.
I get your point about the "genetic engineering" thing not being reflected in the actual racial stats and size, but frankly I'd rather have the advantages that come with Large size. And the hindrances too. More interesting and makes the race more distinct and better explains the scale of the STR bonus. There's plenty of room in Large size for differences of mass anyway.
About the only thing I'd house-rule is to allow people to change their type of breath weapon based on their Dragonkin type. Apart from that most of your proposed changes don't seem like improvements at all to me. They would create a different race with a different flavour and that's fine, but beyond that, attempting to justify powergamer-grousing is going to be a flawed exercise more often than not. Rise above... or Glide above, I guess. Whatever works. ;)
About the only thing I'd house-rule is to allow people to change their type of breath weapon based on their Dragonkin type. Apart from that most of your proposed changes don't seem like improvements at all to me. They would create a different race with a different flavour and that's fine, but beyond that, attempting to justify powergamer-grousing is going to be a flawed exercise more often than not. Rise above... or Glide above, I guess. Whatever works. ;)
Maybe that's just me having some Pathfinder stuff in mind...
- The Breath Weapon is powerful on its own right... expect that the Dragon Gland a similar mecanic of "1d6 x level". To me, it seems that this is just how breath weapons scale. I guess that maybe some feats might increase the damage (like an extra 1d6 per feat), but the system is still pretty new.
- The Fly speed has been for the most part being equal to the base creature's land speed if it can't be greater than it. This time, it's slower, and there's a small rule that the Dragonkin must complete his flight path or else it falls, until 5th level. Again, maybe soe racail feats can complement it, but still...
About the only thing I'd house-rule is to allow people to change their type of breath weapon based on their Dragonkin type. Apart from that most of your proposed changes don't seem like improvements at all to me. They would create a different race with a different flavour and that's fine, but beyond that, attempting to justify powergamer-grousing is going to be a flawed exercise more often than not. Rise above... or Glide above, I guess. Whatever works. ;)Maybe that's just me having some Pathfinder stuff in mind...
The Dragon's Breath spell in Pathfinder scaled the way it did because it is a spell for Pete's freaking sake. You don't get it as an innate racial ability that you can use after any ten-minute rest. Expecting that in Starfinder is purest munchkinry. Come on.
FWIW though, Fly speed is equal to a PC's base speed which is 30 feet. (Yes, yes, the CR9 monster gets more! So do characters as they level up. Relax.)
While none of the playable races are as powerful as their non-playable counterparts for obvious reasons, I can confidently say that none of them are in my experience underpowered. Some race/class combinations are certainly MORE powerful than others but even combos that take racial penalties to their main stat can still be reasonably viable in a lot of cases.
One of the PCs in a campaign I'm running is a contemplative. We've had great fun exploring the interesting aspects of that race and how it impacts the game. As a GM, I enjoy the more "alien" options, as they present fresh role play opportunities. Mechanically speaking, I haven't noticed anything unbalanced or unfun about the race.
The Dragon's Breath spell in Pathfinder scaled the way it did because it is a spell for Pete's freaking sake. You don't get it as an innate racial ability that you can use after any ten-minute rest. Expecting that in Starfinder is purest munchkinry. Come on.
Woaw, woaw, woaw, chill out dude.
I didn't go with the spell, I went with the item. Furthermore, I was expecting for a breath wepaon to be 1d6 per 2 HD, like in other cases. Right now, it's 1d6 + 30 (at 20th level), maybe with some calculation, it might actually on par with other weapons, I dunno, but I'm not that good with comparison. Still, nothing prevents me from buying a Dragon Gland.
FWIW though, Fly speed is equal to a PC's base speed which is 30 feet. (Yes, yes, the CR9 monster gets more! So do characters as they level up. Relax.)
Wrong, the Dragonkin's land speed in 40 ft. There is no sign that it is 30 ft. I've look everywhere and no change to speed.
While none of the playable races are as powerful as their non-playable counterparts for obvious reasons, I can confidently say that none of them are in my experience underpowered. Some race/class combinations are certainly MORE powerful than others but even combos that take racial penalties to their main stat can still be reasonably viable in a lot of cases.
That's good to hear.
One of the PCs in a campaign I'm running is a contemplative. We've had great fun exploring the interesting aspects of that race and how it impacts the game. As a GM, I enjoy the more "alien" options, as they present fresh role play opportunities. Mechanically speaking, I haven't noticed anything unbalanced or unfun about the race.
I see.
Here's my concern: that the aliens were so downgraded that they wouldn't properly work. While some aliens are actual "0HD races", others are clearly downgraded versions, like the Dragonkin, Gray and Haan.
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I dont get it. Let's say a certain alien can teleport at will. The PC version can't do that, for balance reasons. Therefore your players name it as unplayable because it is now underpowered, and instead go and build a human... who also cannot teleport at will???
If a "downgraded" dragon kin is still on par with a Vesk, then it is not underpowered. A player who is asking for a non downgraded Dragonkin who is better than a Vesk isn't reasonable. If he doesn't like the downgraded Dragonkin he can roll a Vesk instead
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Wouldn't "properly" work again seems to mean "aren't sufficiently OP to outperform all the other player races." It just goes around in circles. :D SMH
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Wrong, the Dragonkin's land speed in 40 ft. There is no sign that it is 30 ft. I've look everywhere and no change to speed.
Considering they feel the need to specify the goblin has a 35 foot land speed as a PC race when it already has a 35 foot land speed as a monster, I'm inclined to think the dragonkin follows the general principle of not having any benefits it is not explicitly granted. This includes a land speed other than the default 30 feet. The shobhad is another example, if you want a large PC race where its higher than normal speed is explicitly noted.
As a more immediate example, the author of the dragonkin's entry felt it was necessary to specify that the playable version also has darkvision and low-light vision. A curious waste of space and ink if it's implicitly inherited from the monster entry.
As for the original question, while I'm not sure any of the PC race options are mechanically underpowered as such - though I too am a bit disappointed by the breath weapon - I do think some of them have been tweaked in such a way that it is somewhat more difficult to reflect what they are nominally supposed to be capable of. A PC Sarcesian will never spend all day out in the vacuum simply by virtue of race. A PC Reptoid will never have any long-term infiltration ability with a 10 minute per level time limit.
I'm not convinced either of those two examples need to be true for them to be balanced, but they are.
The Reptoid example is one that I really found odd. I mean, a whole race devoted to infiltrate a society, and yet he can only stay in disguise for *that* short of a time?
I feel like all the PC-capable races like that are just the "runts" of whatever race they come from. They can't hang with the normal versions of their kin, so they gotta find something else to do.
The underlying assumptions are cinematic, I think. The activities of monsters are abstract and mostly off-screen, whereas PC's are assumed to have more going on and for it to be more interesting for them to have to find ways to use abilities strategically. (Also maybe that a Reptoid with an adventuring vocation probably does not have Infiltration as their entire life's mission and reason for existing in the story, unlike their "monster" kin.)
Change Self for Reptoid PC's does actually match the Disguise Self spell for duration, which is well impressive for a racial ability.
That is a possible reasoning, yes, but it is also one I strongly disagree with. I look at the sarcesians and I see their ability to survive and even thrive in a vacuum as a cornerstone of the concept; I can accept a reduced fly speed, but I see no value in depriving them of the ability to spend resolve points to extend their survivability. Perhaps it is 'cinematic,' from a certain perspective, and it reflects what the designers think would be more interesting to focus on. I believe it is counterproductive, and erodes the conceptual strength of the race that would make it an interesting option in the first place.
I don't think the reptoids needed the time limit, even with comparisons to Disguise Self, unless there are some particularly compelling stories about kitsune shapeshifters ruining everything in Pathfinder with equivalent abilities. But as the astrazoan in Pact Worlds has been explicitly billed as a shapeshifter, I'll withhold further judgment until I see how that compares.
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I can't speak to Kitsune in particular -- well I mean I could, in that being able to spend just two feats to get unlimited casts of Alter Self as swift actions does look broken as hell to me, but I mean I can't speak to it from actual play experience of how any of that or their version of Change Shape worked out -- but in general Starfinder does feel to me like they learned some lessons from ridiculously overpowered races in Pathfinder (Aasimar, Tieflings, Strix and such), and chose balance, drama and character challenge over "consistency" and the priorities of the powergamer. Whether they're the right lessons is a matter of opinion, but in most cases I don't find myself sympathetic to many of the "we should get what the monsters get" stuff around the AA races. The conversation upthread about Dragonkin is a perfect example.
All of that said, I think I could agree with you about Sarcesians and being able to spend a Resolve Point to hang in void conditions longer. That's not a super-radical or obviously OP mechanical shift and brings some interesting dynamics with it.
I've noticed that a lot of the racial abilities can be made up for with classes. The Sarcesian thing about not being able to survive in the void, for example, could be easily fixed by dropping a level into Star Shaman Mystic.
Now, obviously there are issues with that. "But I shouldn't have to drop a level into another class to get what the race should give me anyway!"
I'd say that is a fair point. But you could also view it as that perhaps, as a race, Sarcesians are Star Shaman Mystics at whatever level, and the character you are playing as chose a different path. As such, it has a lesser version of that ability.
I do think most of the racial abilities for PC's are built with the assumption that their class builds give them abilities that the monsters don't get, and that they can choose to use those either to become more "typical" of the race or to diverge further from it.
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Also, the vast majority of NPCs don't get to gain levels or go shopping. Or find love.
And isn't that, when it all comes down to it, the greatest Feat of all? *stares mistily into the middle distance and sheds a single manly tear*
What's that you say, no mechanical bonuses from Love? Ah, screw it. I'll just get the wyrm gland.
It's funny because it's true.
The Haan in our group is doing fine. Grunbly about not having balloon or claw attacks. I made her spend feats to have access to those. Even than it's been relatively easy for me to deal with.
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The Shobhad melee blitz soldier in our 2nd-level party just absolutely destroys everything with his 50-foot speed, reach, and cleave feat.
He's not broken by any stretch of the imagination, but he is unmistakably powerful. Powerful enough that I think it just manages to
hedge out some of the other races in the Alien Archive.
On another note, I absolutely hate it when the defining trait of an alien race is not well represented in the race's PC equivalent. The reptoid disguise duration is one great example, especially in light of the new astrazoan race from the Pact Worlds book, who can take on any humanoid form (not just one), can emulate specific persons, AND has unlimited duration!
The reptoid should have its duration brought up to unlimited. I'm not even going to consider playing one until that gets errata'd.
And I'll be damned pissed if Paizo ends up neutering the astrazoan race instead. That would fix nothing and only leave us with two useless races* rather than one!
I think the one I would look at house-ruling would be the Sarcesians. In fact I've been playing them "wrong" as NPCs because I guess I was supposed to be factoring in that they needed to spend Resolve Points to live in vaccuum past an hour, and I just had a group of them living in vaccuum. I'm hard pressed to think of situations where I would particularly want to be tracking NPC Resolve Point spends in this way.
On the other hand the Resolve Point spend version of that ability would make a lot of sense for the PC race. Especially if you're in an adventure where you're going to be taxing those time limits, that could drive some interesting and dramatic choices. So I would consider just not defining a limitation on the NPC Sarcesians and using their canon NPC ability for PCs.
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On another note, I absolutely hate it when the defining trait of an alien race is not well represented in the race's PC equivalent. The reptoid disguise duration is one great example, especially in light of the new astrazoan race from the Pact Worlds book . . .
I dunno about the astrozoans, but for reptoids if anything I would extend some version of the PC limitation to the NPCs -- or just play that limitation ad hoc As Drama Dictates -- rather than the other way around.
This is at odds with the claim that reptoids can spend more of their lives in other shapes than in their own shape, but I think it gets closer to why the limitation is there and why that's a good thing. The classic cinematic shapeshifting-infiltrator trope is that the shapeshifter has limits, and the Heroes happen across one of them in their True Form. And the moving parts that the conspiracy requires to operate around that limitation -- maybe a cell of reptoids needs to rotate playing the same guy, whose memory of key events will show telltale inconsistencies a a result, to keep the role inhabited around the clock -- makes it more possible for the Heroes to stumble across the truth.
And in the moment of reveal: Horror! The Unseen are here! Can they get anybody to believe them? Can the aliens silence the Heroes before the operation is exposed? And will Dex Chandling finally confess his true feelings to the beautiful lashunta scientist Dalya? Limitations on the reptoid ability would be ideal for stories like that. (Well, not necessary for that last beat, but you get the idea.)
Likewise for hero-character shapeshifters. The old Liam Neeson classic Darkman was great for this, because the hero could imitate anyone... but only for an hour before his false face started to melt off. Imparted lots of tension where an unlimited ability wouldn't have. If the astrozoans have none of that going on that would seem less interesting, unless their ability has to be maintained by concentration or has some other inbuilt vulnerability.
A bigger question about playability.
What did you do for Height, Weight, and Starting Age?
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Nothing?
Outside of common sense (our Haan is big but being a critter with natural flight not altogether that heavy) or a rare case where weight matters height is typically handled by size category alone. Starting age doesn't really factor in as we can assume most everyone is an adult with sufficient training and expereince to do what they do. Anything outside of that is the purview of the GM, Player, and the needs of the narrative.
That Haan player clearly isn't getting enough mileage out of shooting flame from between legs. Mine would absolutely pose like a spraying skunk.
Shooting flame out of your butt is unsanitary.
She spits.
On that note though we've also determined Haan do not poop and all waste product is a byproduct emitted from their dorsal tubes in the form of gas.
I had a bit of a problem myself with the races missing iconic abilities from their pc entries. I solved this by allowing players to pick those up with feats.
That way, if a player wants to play a dragonkin that has spend most of his life in a spaceship (and as a result, has underdeveloped wings and fire breath), they totally can. If they want to be free range, they can put feats into it.
As far as reptoids go, you can rationalize it by saying that shapeshifting ability, like artistic skill, is not a constant among all members of the species. Only the strongest shapeshifters (and NPCs)assume positions of power, whereas a PC reptoid could be a good shapshifter (operative, mystic, technomancer) or a not particularly skilled one (soldier, mechanic, etc.)
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That Haan player clearly isn't getting enough mileage out of shooting flame from between legs. Mine would absolutely pose like a spraying skunk.Shooting flame out of your butt is unsanitary.
She spits.
On that note though we've also determined Haan do not poop and all waste product is a byproduct emitted from their dorsal tubes in the form of gas.
And totally possible . . . .