paizo.com Recent Posts in What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?paizo.com Recent Posts in What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?2018-03-20T06:53:15Z2018-03-20T06:53:15ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Losobalhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#452018-03-28T20:05:59Z2018-03-28T20:05:59Z<p>A quick and dirty fix I have been fiddling with was use the weapon tiers of (roughly) 5 10 and 15, and use the base damage from those weapons, including their costs, and then change weapon specialization to do 1.5x level bonus. Loosely it makes a level 5 weapon still good until you replace it with the level 10 one, then the level 15 one. You lose a bit in the max dmg, but average damage increases a bit due to the increased spec bonus.</p>A quick and dirty fix I have been fiddling with was use the weapon tiers of (roughly) 5 10 and 15, and use the base damage from those weapons, including their costs, and then change weapon specialization to do 1.5x level bonus. Loosely it makes a level 5 weapon still good until you replace it with the level 10 one, then the level 15 one. You lose a bit in the max dmg, but average damage increases a bit due to the increased spec bonus.Losobal2018-03-28T20:05:59ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Zoggy Grav (alias of Dracomicron)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#442018-03-28T18:21:55Z2018-03-28T18:21:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">L'cutus wrote:</div><blockquote> My biggest problem is the level-locking of weapons. The weapons themselves increase in damage in a progression that is so far beyond what even 3.5 did it feels like the designers chose exactly the wrong lessons learned in the name of innovation. That a longsword progresses from 1d8 to 4d8 by level 11 (to eventually 14d8) evokes the MMO gear grind. And the only in-game reason a level 5 character can never loot that epic longsword is the game mechanic won't allow it. </blockquote><p>The alternative is to not have hit points scale at the level they do, or give melee some function other than "do damage in combat."
<p>Honestly, to get a weapon to do competitive damage in 3.5/Pathfinder, you had to jump through a bunch of hoops by spending thousands (or tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands) of gold enchanting it, getting ALL the right feats, and sacrificing a goat to Asmodeus. And spells of comparable-level casters will still blow you out of the water (the "limited spells per day" argument loses effectiveness when practically every party commits to the 5-minute work day because the wizards demand that the party camps every time they're low on spells).</p>
<p>So I find Starfinder's weapon damage scaling to be actually honest and refreshing. I rationalize it by deciding that the major corporations and governments got together and acknowledged that they live in a very dangerous universe, and it's in everybody's best interests if the weapons that everybody has access to are barely better than BB guns (a first level character has to be shot with a bullet or laser pistol about 3 times before they even need medical attention), but real weapons, that CAN kill normal people with one shot, are extremely expensive and difficult to get their hands on.</p>
<p>(Incidentally, this also tracks with how melee weapons potentially do so much more damage at low levels than guns in SF... how many guns in real life do less damage than a strong guy with a baseball bat?)</p>
<p>As lampshading goes, I find it to be better than some. Rules-wise, it is better if additive combat classes don't get overshadowed by quadratic casters, so give everyone various shades of the same damage scaling.</p>
<p>Yeah, it's gamification of the system... but... you know, it's a game, so I don't how that's "learning the wrong lessons."</p>L'cutus wrote:My biggest problem is the level-locking of weapons. The weapons themselves increase in damage in a progression that is so far beyond what even 3.5 did it feels like the designers chose exactly the wrong lessons learned in the name of innovation. That a longsword progresses from 1d8 to 4d8 by level 11 (to eventually 14d8) evokes the MMO gear grind. And the only in-game reason a level 5 character can never loot that epic longsword is the game mechanic won't allow it.
The...Zoggy Grav (alias of Dracomicron)2018-03-28T18:21:55ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#432018-03-28T15:08:09Z2018-03-28T10:52:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">L'cutus wrote:</div><blockquote> My biggest problem is the level-locking of weapons. The weapons themselves increase in damage in a progression that is so far beyond what even 3.5 did it feels like the designers chose exactly the wrong lessons learned in the name of innovation. That a longsword progresses from 1d8 to 4d8 by level 11 (to eventually 14d8) evokes the MMO gear grind. And the only in-game reason a level 5 character can never loot that epic longsword is the game mechanic won't allow it. </blockquote><p>There's no game mechanic that won't allow you to loot that epic longsword. The level mechanic applies to available purchases. If the GM equips a baddie with one and you can take it, you're golden. Of course, any bad guy who should have such a weapon should be able to trash the low level party without effort.
<p>Much like a Pathfinder GM could hand out inappropriate weapons or just piles of extra loot.</p>L'cutus wrote:My biggest problem is the level-locking of weapons. The weapons themselves increase in damage in a progression that is so far beyond what even 3.5 did it feels like the designers chose exactly the wrong lessons learned in the name of innovation. That a longsword progresses from 1d8 to 4d8 by level 11 (to eventually 14d8) evokes the MMO gear grind. And the only in-game reason a level 5 character can never loot that epic longsword is the game mechanic won't allow it.
There's no...thejeff2018-03-28T10:52:07ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?L'cutus (alias of Oath)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#422018-03-28T05:23:48Z2018-03-28T05:23:48Z<p>My biggest problem is the level-locking of weapons. The weapons themselves increase in damage in a progression that is so far beyond what even 3.5 did it feels like the designers chose exactly the wrong lessons learned in the name of innovation. That a longsword progresses from 1d8 to 4d8 by level 11 (to eventually 14d8) evokes the MMO gear grind. And the only in-game reason a level 5 character can never loot that epic longsword is the game mechanic won't allow it.</p>My biggest problem is the level-locking of weapons. The weapons themselves increase in damage in a progression that is so far beyond what even 3.5 did it feels like the designers chose exactly the wrong lessons learned in the name of innovation. That a longsword progresses from 1d8 to 4d8 by level 11 (to eventually 14d8) evokes the MMO gear grind. And the only in-game reason a level 5 character can never loot that epic longsword is the game mechanic won't allow it.L'cutus (alias of Oath)2018-03-28T05:23:48ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Losobalhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#412018-03-28T00:47:59Z2018-03-28T00:47:59Z<p>In a way just having all those normal equipment costs seems odd, but you'd end up ripping out a large portion of WBL if you just got rid of it. In a practical sense, does anyone feel it makes a difference to just give the PCs access to tier level normal stuff (guns, armor, etc) than to make them do accounting to keep track? Wouldn't a much easier tracking be done if you just kept it for the special stuff? In PF that's mostly magic, but in SF that's the fusion stuff, maybe some cyborg stuff/augmentation. </p>
<p>But I mean otherwise, a sub-equipped normal gear PC group will become normally equipped immediately after a normal challenge level encounter and likely just by encounters alone rather than giving them credits/treasure and making them buy the gun they'll likely be encountering in the next fight because that's the appropriate gun for the CR of the foes they're facing...etc etc.</p>In a way just having all those normal equipment costs seems odd, but you'd end up ripping out a large portion of WBL if you just got rid of it. In a practical sense, does anyone feel it makes a difference to just give the PCs access to tier level normal stuff (guns, armor, etc) than to make them do accounting to keep track? Wouldn't a much easier tracking be done if you just kept it for the special stuff? In PF that's mostly magic, but in SF that's the fusion stuff, maybe some cyborg...Losobal2018-03-28T00:47:59ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Noven (alias of Michael Monn)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#402018-03-24T20:44:46Z2018-03-24T20:44:46Z<p>I find that the Starfinder economy is not very "believable" mainly because the disconnect between items and ships. Then again, I have been lucky with groups that we just hand-wave the concept as apart of the system. If I want something more realistic, I turn to GURPS.</p>I find that the Starfinder economy is not very "believable" mainly because the disconnect between items and ships. Then again, I have been lucky with groups that we just hand-wave the concept as apart of the system. If I want something more realistic, I turn to GURPS.Noven (alias of Michael Monn)2018-03-24T20:44:46ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#392018-03-29T12:13:07Z2018-03-24T19:48:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tryn wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Sure you can disconnect the prices etc. from the world and see it just as a "gameplay reason mechanic", but that is then bad game design. </p>
<p>I just wonder why Paizo decided to go this route instead of creating a believable (NOT an accurate) system? Instead they used an already flawed system and modified it to become even more unbelievable... </p>
<p>And don't tell me that this is not possible, other games managed to get their to a level where it is believable. </blockquote><p>I've never seen one.
</p>
Maybe I missed it or maybe I've got different standards for believable.</p>Tryn wrote:Sure you can disconnect the prices etc. from the world and see it just as a "gameplay reason mechanic", but that is then bad game design.
I just wonder why Paizo decided to go this route instead of creating a believable (NOT an accurate) system? Instead they used an already flawed system and modified it to become even more unbelievable...
And don't tell me that this is not possible, other games managed to get their to a level where it is believable.
I've never seen one.
Maybe I...thejeff2018-03-24T19:48:55ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Trynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#382018-03-24T19:34:19Z2018-03-24T19:34:19Z<p>Sure you can disconnect the prices etc. from the world and see it just as a "gameplay reason mechanic", but that is then bad game design. </p>
<p>I just wonder why Paizo decided to go this route instead of creating a believable (NOT an accurate) system? Instead they used an already flawed system and modified it to become even more unbelievable... </p>
<p>And don't tell me that this is not possible, other games managed to get their to a level where it is believable.</p>Sure you can disconnect the prices etc. from the world and see it just as a "gameplay reason mechanic", but that is then bad game design.
I just wonder why Paizo decided to go this route instead of creating a believable (NOT an accurate) system? Instead they used an already flawed system and modified it to become even more unbelievable...
And don't tell me that this is not possible, other games managed to get their to a level where it is believable.Tryn2018-03-24T19:34:19ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#372018-03-29T12:12:54Z2018-03-24T19:15:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Smite Makes Right wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Metaphysician wrote:</div><blockquote> Pretty much that. I reject any argument that boils down to "the only things that exist are those things mechanically described in the rules" as being a meaningful position.</blockquote><p>Instead, you are taking the position that the rules cover the topic with no stated exemptions, but it makes sense if you inject them and create a separate system to handle the situation you fabricated.
<p>I'm sorry, but while you may or may not be correct about the design assumptions, your argument about the setting, as presented by the end product, is invalid.</p>
<p>If you publish a novel with a glaring plot hole, it doesn't matter if you addressed it your notes. The story, the immersion, is judged by what is in the final product. </blockquote><p>Do the rules even claim to be a complete economic simulator? Is there the slightest pretence anywhere that they're intended for anything more than money to be used as a parallel experience track to increase power by buying adventuring adventuring gear?
<p>If we pretend they're supposed to be economic rules, they're nonsensical. They don't even model basic supply and demand!</p>Smite Makes Right wrote:Metaphysician wrote: Pretty much that. I reject any argument that boils down to "the only things that exist are those things mechanically described in the rules" as being a meaningful position.
Instead, you are taking the position that the rules cover the topic with no stated exemptions, but it makes sense if you inject them and create a separate system to handle the situation you fabricated. I'm sorry, but while you may or may not be correct about the design...thejeff2018-03-24T19:15:14ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Smite Makes Righthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#362018-03-24T18:45:26Z2018-03-24T18:45:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Metaphysician wrote:</div><blockquote> Pretty much that. I reject any argument that boils down to "the only things that exist are those things mechanically described in the rules" as being a meaningful position.</blockquote><p>Instead, you are taking the position that the rules cover the topic with no stated exemptions, but it makes sense if you inject them and create a separate system to handle the situation you fabricated.
<p>I'm sorry, but while you may or may not be correct about the design assumptions, your argument about the setting, as presented by the end product, is invalid.</p>
<p>If you publish a novel with a glaring plot hole, it doesn't matter if you addressed it your notes. The story, the immersion, is judged by what is in the final product.</p>Metaphysician wrote:Pretty much that. I reject any argument that boils down to "the only things that exist are those things mechanically described in the rules" as being a meaningful position.
Instead, you are taking the position that the rules cover the topic with no stated exemptions, but it makes sense if you inject them and create a separate system to handle the situation you fabricated. I'm sorry, but while you may or may not be correct about the design assumptions, your argument about...Smite Makes Right2018-03-24T18:45:26ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Metaphysicianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#352018-03-28T14:09:54Z2018-03-24T17:03:29Z<p>Pretty much that. I reject any argument that boils down to "the only things that exist are those things mechanically described in the rules" as being a meaningful position. Complaining that the rules do not describe every single thing possible in the universe is absurd, when they never set about to do that in the first place.</p>Pretty much that. I reject any argument that boils down to "the only things that exist are those things mechanically described in the rules" as being a meaningful position. Complaining that the rules do not describe every single thing possible in the universe is absurd, when they never set about to do that in the first place.Metaphysician2018-03-24T17:03:29ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Hithesiushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#342018-03-24T15:43:36Z2018-03-24T15:43:36Z<p>I believe Metaphysician is arguing not from a hard rules-text perspective, but from a perspective regarding underlying design assumptions. If the rules are intended to accurately simulate a living, futuristic economy, I think it is fairly clear they do so inadequately. But the point of Starfinder is not to delve into the intricacies of the economy of a space-opera civilization inundated with magic and general shenanigans. The point of Starfinder is to go out and be adventurers. Travel to new places, meet new people, get into entirely (un)avoidable firefights with the new people and then kill them and take their stuff.</p>
<p>Though you probably shouldn't jump immediately to that last one if you can help it.</p>
<p>You might not find that argument compelling, in which case <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2um1o?Economic-Slavery#9" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">I have previously written at excess length about it</a>. Short version: Adjust your assumptions. Use MREs instead of Poor Meals and take advantage of long-term housing price discounts and you'll have at worst a monthly income of 45-67.5 credits after expenses if you let people take 10. Anyone with any business at all being a PC will do better than that, as they will have a modifier higher than +5 in <i>something</i>.</p>I believe Metaphysician is arguing not from a hard rules-text perspective, but from a perspective regarding underlying design assumptions. If the rules are intended to accurately simulate a living, futuristic economy, I think it is fairly clear they do so inadequately. But the point of Starfinder is not to delve into the intricacies of the economy of a space-opera civilization inundated with magic and general shenanigans. The point of Starfinder is to go out and be adventurers. Travel to new...Hithesius2018-03-24T15:43:36ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Yako Zenko (alias of Kitsune Kune)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#332018-03-24T15:23:15Z2018-03-24T15:23:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Metaphysician wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>How do people make money doing services? Simple: the rules for rolling Profession checks to make money, are for freelance adventures, doing such in their off time. People who actually do normal jobs for a living, make more money, because they have actual stable jobs that they show up to five days a week, 50 weeks a year.</p>
<p>How do people afford to live? Simple: you don't get the Cost of Living for a random settled, established person, by taking the cost of a restaurant meal and multiplying it times 21 to get weekly food costs. That's the price of hitting McDonalds for every meal. </blockquote><p>While I can accept that a stable job will pay more in the end part. I have to pose a counter argument to your McDonalds comment. If I was using the "common" meals as the price gauge. I would call that standard fast food. "Poor" to me at least, (especially as no "meal" is cheaper.) rings closer to the classic "starving art student" go to meal... A cup of microwave Ramen... which is pretty darn cheap.Metaphysician wrote:How do people make money doing services? Simple: the rules for rolling Profession checks to make money, are for freelance adventures, doing such in their off time. People who actually do normal jobs for a living, make more money, because they have actual stable jobs that they show up to five days a week, 50 weeks a year.
How do people afford to live? Simple: you don't get the Cost of Living for a random settled, established person, by taking the cost of a restaurant meal...Yako Zenko (alias of Kitsune Kune)2018-03-24T15:23:15ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Smite Makes Righthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#322018-03-24T15:21:24Z2018-03-24T15:20:44Z<p>Metaphysician, where can I find that distinction? What is not in the book is not part of the setting or the immersion of the economy.</p>Metaphysician, where can I find that distinction? What is not in the book is not part of the setting or the immersion of the economy.Smite Makes Right2018-03-24T15:20:44ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Metaphysicianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#312018-03-28T14:09:47Z2018-03-24T13:13:05Z<p>•cough• As has been said many a time, the reason the economy appears to "break down" is because people insist on taking rules from the core book, and apply them •far• more broadly and universally than is actually intended.</p>
<p>How do people make money based on crafting? Simple: the crafting rules as written apply to PCs who do PC stuff, and also build stuff on the side. Professional craftsmen who do that, as their primary vocation? Can make things more cheaply ( relatively to their sell value ), because they've actually focused on being able to do that. Rather than, you know, on being able to do adventures.</p>
<p>How do people make money doing services? Simple: the rules for rolling Profession checks to make money, are for freelance adventures, doing such in their off time. People who actually do normal jobs for a living, make more money, because they have actual stable jobs that they show up to five days a week, 50 weeks a year.</p>
<p>How do people afford to live? Simple: you don't get the Cost of Living for a random settled, established person, by taking the cost of a restaurant meal and multiplying it times 21 to get weekly food costs. That's the price of hitting McDonalds for every meal.</p>*cough* As has been said many a time, the reason the economy appears to "break down" is because people insist on taking rules from the core book, and apply them *far* more broadly and universally than is actually intended.
How do people make money based on crafting? Simple: the crafting rules as written apply to PCs who do PC stuff, and also build stuff on the side. Professional craftsmen who do that, as their primary vocation? Can make things more cheaply ( relatively to their sell value ),...Metaphysician2018-03-24T13:13:05ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Trynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#302018-03-24T08:37:06Z2018-03-24T08:37:06Z<p>"Smite Makes Right" isn't that wrong, this "loot-driven" gameplay is more for Fantasy P&P/MMOs.
<br />
In a world with a established society, equipment is mostly bought and not looted.
<br />
Paizo also missed to introduce a "legal system" which could be used to restrict equipment (I look at you Shadowrun). </p>
<p>All in all it's just a copy paste of a system which partial worked in a fantasy setting, but can't hold up ot a scifi setting (if you play it as this and not as "Fanatasy-Setting with Laserrifles".</p>"Smite Makes Right" isn't that wrong, this "loot-driven" gameplay is more for Fantasy P&P/MMOs.
In a world with a established society, equipment is mostly bought and not looted.
Paizo also missed to introduce a "legal system" which could be used to restrict equipment (I look at you Shadowrun).
All in all it's just a copy paste of a system which partial worked in a fantasy setting, but can't hold up ot a scifi setting (if you play it as this and not as "Fanatasy-Setting with Laserrifles".Tryn2018-03-24T08:37:06ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?rook1138https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#292018-03-23T22:24:30Z2018-03-23T22:24:30Z<p>I agree from the professional skills and services cost POV that the economy is kinda wonky.
<br />
but for items/upgrades as you level and such, for the most part, I don't have an issue with it. (10% to sell used stuff. seems legit #GameStop)
<br />
Crafting, well, that's a whole other issue imo. Although as someone who crafts a lot of stuff, this kinda rings true...
<br />
"Why buy something for $5 when you can get the stuff needed and make it yourself for $15" :-p</p>I agree from the professional skills and services cost POV that the economy is kinda wonky.
but for items/upgrades as you level and such, for the most part, I don't have an issue with it. (10% to sell used stuff. seems legit #GameStop)
Crafting, well, that's a whole other issue imo. Although as someone who crafts a lot of stuff, this kinda rings true...
"Why buy something for $5 when you can get the stuff needed and make it yourself for $15" :-prook11382018-03-23T22:24:30ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Yako Zenko (alias of Kitsune Kune)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#282018-03-24T15:15:51Z2018-03-23T20:55:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Smite Makes Right wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Azalah wrote:</div><blockquote> I'm just confused at to why everyone is all up-in-arms about the economy anyway. From what I've seen in nearly every game ever, pretty much all of the best stuff comes as loot.</blockquote><p>The murder hobo lifestyle works better in fantasy than in civilized science fiction. The Starfinder upgrade model is just an MMO translated to paper, but they are too lazy to include crafting rules.
<p>My wife and I both enjoy crafting and creating characters that craft. My wife really enjoys downtime and likes to have characters with a business or shop. The Starfinder model of every merchant sells goods at cost is unrealistic and detracts from the world.</p>
<p>NPCs are just vending machines for upgrades. </blockquote><p>First off, I am entertained by "Smite Makes Right" referring to murder-hoboing.
<p>Now that I have finished that tangent, to the points at hand. In a situation where two groups of armed and trained mercenary groups meet,and tensions rise to the point of conflict. I doubt that the survivors will just leave the loot behind. It is only murder-hoboing, imho, if they attempt to shoot it out before talking it out first.</p>
<p>As for the Vending Machine comment. Based off the "Earning a living" line in skills. I honestly have to say I cannot determine how the crafting fits in, or a character earns the 1000 credits listed at start.. Let's do some math here. A character with max stat in profession (artist), takes Icon, plus performers toolkit (at negative cash now) plus professional wear (even more negative), has the profession as a class skill. </p>
<p>if they roll max, they make 70 credits a week. We then minus for 3 poor meals a day, 7 days for the week, that's minus 21 credits. So a level one character, who rolls max, on a maxed out skill (from what I can see from my few glances at the crb)earns 49 credits, if they are at the top of their field, at the top of their game. That same person, if has a terrible week, worst possible, would make 22 credits... and so would net gain 1 credit a week. </p>
<p>Assuming they had taken the loan to buy the kit and wear, that'd take 25 weeks to pay off the kit and wear if they roll minimum. (If no interest, 'cus its a nice loan I guess.)</p>
<p>Now we look at the same job, using an average stat person (with the point buy of this system means I'll be nice and give them a 14 in the ability score.) They just got started up, have no cash to loan the equipment. They get a nice +7 from icon, class skill, and ability score.</p>
<p>Best week of their lives earns 33 credits. An average week (aka equivalent to "takes 10") earns then a net 13 credits. A "nat 1" type week gets them a negative 5 credits. (remember, all of these are assuming that the person does nothing but eat, sleep, work. No other purchases or mishaps. No utilities to pay. No rent. no taxes. Never buying any new clothes.)</p>
<p>So, for the 13 credit gain, the person above did nothing but eat, sleep, and work, for 77 weeks. Taking 10 every week. (we can drop it to 57 weeks, assuming they bought the kit and wear ASAP after the second week and risked starving.) </p>
<p>Over a year of doing nothing but hard-work, poorest food around, no utilities, no rent, just slaving away in a loincloth in filth like making it to the Starfinders is the only goal left in life... At that point, I can understand people being a bit twisted mentally, and going all murder-hoboing. </p>
<p>Tl;DR the Economy definitely seems a TAD off to me... but what the hey. "Hi ho! hi ho! A murder-hoboing we go!"</p>Smite Makes Right wrote:Azalah wrote: I'm just confused at to why everyone is all up-in-arms about the economy anyway. From what I've seen in nearly every game ever, pretty much all of the best stuff comes as loot.
The murder hobo lifestyle works better in fantasy than in civilized science fiction. The Starfinder upgrade model is just an MMO translated to paper, but they are too lazy to include crafting rules. My wife and I both enjoy crafting and creating characters that craft. My wife...Yako Zenko (alias of Kitsune Kune)2018-03-23T20:55:53ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Azalahhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#272018-03-23T20:34:18Z2018-03-23T20:34:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Smite Makes Right wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Azalah wrote:</div><blockquote> I'm just confused at to why everyone is all up-in-arms about the economy anyway. From what I've seen in nearly every game ever, pretty much all of the best stuff comes as loot.</blockquote>The murder hobo lifestyle works better in fantasy than in civilized science fiction. </blockquote><p>How is taking the spoils of a battle being a murder-hobo? Sure, you can be a murder-hobo and start fights and, ya know, murder. But at the end of every fight, murder-hobo or no, there will be loot one way or another.Smite Makes Right wrote:Azalah wrote: I'm just confused at to why everyone is all up-in-arms about the economy anyway. From what I've seen in nearly every game ever, pretty much all of the best stuff comes as loot.
The murder hobo lifestyle works better in fantasy than in civilized science fiction. How is taking the spoils of a battle being a murder-hobo? Sure, you can be a murder-hobo and start fights and, ya know, murder. But at the end of every fight, murder-hobo or no, there will be loot...Azalah2018-03-23T20:34:18ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Smite Makes Righthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#262018-03-23T19:30:46Z2018-03-23T19:30:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Azalah wrote:</div><blockquote> I'm just confused at to why everyone is all up-in-arms about the economy anyway. From what I've seen in nearly every game ever, pretty much all of the best stuff comes as loot.</blockquote><p>The murder hobo lifestyle works better in fantasy than in civilized science fiction. The Starfinder upgrade model is just an MMO translated to paper, but they are too lazy to include crafting rules.
<p>My wife and I both enjoy crafting and creating characters that craft. My wife really enjoys downtime and likes to have characters with a business or shop. The Starfinder model of every merchant sells goods at cost is unrealistic and detracts from the world.</p>
<p>NPCs are just vending machines for upgrades.</p>Azalah wrote:I'm just confused at to why everyone is all up-in-arms about the economy anyway. From what I've seen in nearly every game ever, pretty much all of the best stuff comes as loot.
The murder hobo lifestyle works better in fantasy than in civilized science fiction. The Starfinder upgrade model is just an MMO translated to paper, but they are too lazy to include crafting rules. My wife and I both enjoy crafting and creating characters that craft. My wife really enjoys downtime and...Smite Makes Right2018-03-23T19:30:46ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Azalahhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#252018-03-22T18:56:54Z2018-03-22T18:46:32Z<p>I'm just confused at to why everyone is all up-in-arms about the economy anyway. From what I've seen in nearly every game ever, pretty much all of the best stuff comes as loot.</p>
<p>As a GM, you can choose either to give the players the cash needed to upgrade all their gear, or you can have them find it/loot it from enemies.</p>
<p>Think your player's Soldier needs a new heavy weapon? Well, put in an enemy that just so happens to be using that heavy weapon. Want the players to have their own ship? Have them save an old, retired pilot and he rewards them with a fixer-upper ship that they can then personalize.</p>I'm just confused at to why everyone is all up-in-arms about the economy anyway. From what I've seen in nearly every game ever, pretty much all of the best stuff comes as loot.
As a GM, you can choose either to give the players the cash needed to upgrade all their gear, or you can have them find it/loot it from enemies.
Think your player's Soldier needs a new heavy weapon? Well, put in an enemy that just so happens to be using that heavy weapon. Want the players to have their own ship? Have...Azalah2018-03-22T18:46:32ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Dread Mooreshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#242018-03-22T18:03:37Z2018-03-22T18:03:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Telok wrote:</div><blockquote>Starfinder doesn't have an economy. It has PC equipment rules. And never the twain shall meet. </blockquote><p>This can't be stressed enough. Trying to model post-scarcity "maker" economies is pretty challenging in game mechanics. The only other place I've seen it really attempted (and even there, it had issues) was the reputation economy found in Eclipse Phase.Telok wrote:Starfinder doesn't have an economy. It has PC equipment rules. And never the twain shall meet.
This can't be stressed enough. Trying to model post-scarcity "maker" economies is pretty challenging in game mechanics. The only other place I've seen it really attempted (and even there, it had issues) was the reputation economy found in Eclipse Phase.Dread Moores2018-03-22T18:03:37ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Vexieshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#232018-03-22T16:12:10Z2018-03-22T13:40:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Telok wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">kaid wrote:</div><blockquote>The cost to acquire weapons and armor is also taking into account all the behind the scenes licensing fees/security authorizations and what not to acquire/build them.</blockquote><p>Per page 235 you can just build the stuff from UPBs. No behind the scenes anything. Even NPC services are just 2•bonus per day, amazingly cheap compared to buying stuff.
<p>Starfinder doesn't have an economy. It has PC equipment rules. And never the twain shall meet. </blockquote><p>Considering the fact that it costs you an identical amount in UPS to build a item as buy it.. it not a inexpensive way to acquire gear as your saving nothing at all. If you hire a NPC to do it its even more expensive or did you assume they just provide the UPS out of the goodness of their heart? Also it states you must posses an equal amount of ranks as the item lvl to construct it which again coincides with item lvl system in place. As for a NPC creating it.. again item lvls constrict them to what they are legally allowed to create for you.
<p>That said there is nothing inherently wrong with the lvl system for gear as the price pretty much gates them anyway. Its clearly stated in the rules why this is the case (just for immersion) which is it also represents the lvl of influence and proper licensing required to be able to purchase said item legally. There is absolutely NOTHING stopping you from acquiring whatever lvl of gear as treasure.. or stealing it for that matter provided your GM decides to sprinkle that item in. Im curious why I see some people beg for laws and wonder why there is no gun control in Starfinder.. yet its already there in the lvl system and stated as the RP reason the lvl system exists in the first place for legal purchases.</p>Telok wrote:kaid wrote:The cost to acquire weapons and armor is also taking into account all the behind the scenes licensing fees/security authorizations and what not to acquire/build them.
Per page 235 you can just build the stuff from UPBs. No behind the scenes anything. Even NPC services are just 2*bonus per day, amazingly cheap compared to buying stuff. Starfinder doesn't have an economy. It has PC equipment rules. And never the twain shall meet. Considering the fact that it costs you an...Vexies2018-03-22T13:40:07ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Telokhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#222018-03-22T04:53:12Z2018-03-22T04:53:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">kaid wrote:</div><blockquote>The cost to acquire weapons and armor is also taking into account all the behind the scenes licensing fees/security authorizations and what not to acquire/build them.</blockquote><p>Per page 235 you can just build the stuff from UPBs. No behind the scenes anything. Even NPC services are just 2•bonus per day, amazingly cheap compared to buying stuff.
<p>Starfinder doesn't have an economy. It has PC equipment rules. And never the twain shall meet.</p>kaid wrote:The cost to acquire weapons and armor is also taking into account all the behind the scenes licensing fees/security authorizations and what not to acquire/build them.
Per page 235 you can just build the stuff from UPBs. No behind the scenes anything. Even NPC services are just 2*bonus per day, amazingly cheap compared to buying stuff. Starfinder doesn't have an economy. It has PC equipment rules. And never the twain shall meet.Telok2018-03-22T04:53:12ZRe: Forums: Starfinder General Discussion: What are your experiences with the Starfinder economy?Smite Makes Righthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uzto?What-are-your-experiences-with-the-Starfinder#212018-03-22T02:21:06Z2018-03-22T02:21:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Metaphysician wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Tryn wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Based on this vehicles and ships have to cost more then 1 Mio credits (because vehicles/ship should be more expensive then normal weapons). So player will NEVER have enough credits to buy a new ship (or so much that they can buy weapons far above their APL).
<br />
</blockquote>Exactly how are either of these things problems? PCs •shouldn't• be buying random new ships out of petty cash, and they •shouldn't• be buying weapons far above their APL. </blockquote><p>Why? That's an artificial limitation. If the party wants to pool their resources to buy a team member a powerful item, why stop them?
<p>Why should leveling up mean that new gear is suddenly available to you with no increase in personal wealth. Why should I be eyeing a weapons upgrade, but have to weigh waiting for more options after leveling up?</p>
<p>It is not just unimmersive, it actively works against immersion.</p>Metaphysician wrote:Tryn wrote:
Based on this vehicles and ships have to cost more then 1 Mio credits (because vehicles/ship should be more expensive then normal weapons). So player will NEVER have enough credits to buy a new ship (or so much that they can buy weapons far above their APL).
Exactly how are either of these things problems? PCs *shouldn't* be buying random new ships out of petty cash, and they *shouldn't* be buying weapons far above their APL. Why? That's an artificial...Smite Makes Right2018-03-22T02:21:06Z