If Goblins, Halflings and Gnomes are all going to be core...


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Don't make them all have a strength penalty, Please. Otherwise we have 3 races in the same book, all excelling and Sucking at almost the same things. I'm not sure how to best do it, but please, don't make all the little folk so similar stat wise.


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While Gnomes and Halflings have similar stats in PF1, Goblins are actually pretty different. That said, it sounds (from the Glass Cannon podcast) like they've changed how Size works so maybe a Str penalty won't be necessary?


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On the one hand, I see what you mean. On the other, every single Small race having a Strength penalty because small things are weaker makes sense.

Since not all Small races have +Dex, I feel they would be distinct enough if they kept their current stat spreads (Gnomes are hardier, Goblins are the most nimble, and Halflings are the middle ground).

I mean I think they're pretty distinct already. And nobody thinks Sylphs and Elves are the same, but they're both Medium Races with +2 Dex/+2 Int/-2 Con


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Goblins could easily have a Wis penalty instead of Str, bring surprisingly strong for their size due to being wiry little bundles of muscle and pepper. Then make gnomes distinct in a different way by making them fey.

Or they could get rid of racial ancestry ability penalties entirely, and just have them grant bonuses...


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Or they could get rid of racial ancestry ability penalties entirely, and just have them grant bonuses...

While I know it is never going to happen...

This. So much this.

Shadow Lodge

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What if we removed all racial/ancestry things and your race was just flavor? [/idea that will never happen]


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I personally support "no attribute penalties from your ancestry, full stop". 4e model of giving +2 to one of two stats from your race and +2 to one of two stats from your class is vastly better.

If we have to keep the -2 from one's ancestry, please give us a choice of -2 to a couple of stats. Like if a Dwarf could choose between -2 Dex and -2 Cha, or a Gnome could choose between -2 Wis and -2 Str. We kind of accomplished this in PF1 with dozens of different kinds of aasimar, tieflings, and changelings and Ulimate Wilderness gave Gathlains a way to trade away their Constitution penalty, so just codify this idea everywhere.


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I like most PC races/ancestries having two +2s and one -2 stat array. Small races having a -2 STR penalty seems fine and logical (for a fantasy setting) to me, as long as they also develop ways/archetypes to stay competitive in melee combat/DPR.

That said, I think gnomes could easily change in PF2e to +2 Con, +2 Cha for regular (fey-ish) gnomes and +2 Con, +2 Int for bleachling gnomes with neither taking a STR penalty. Edit: I was thinking this change also ties core gnomes closer to Tian wayangs.

I also think PF2e kobolds should only have a -2 STR penalty.


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Here’s my guess- ancestries with a stat penalty will let you take an ancestry feat to negate it. Want to play a dwarven bard? Put your first ancestry feat into getting rid of that penalty to charisma, and suddenly it’s manageable, even if it’s not optimal.


I also like bonuses only. Also while we are at it I think humans should be a +Cha race. Since the human hero bringing together other races is a pretty common fantasy trope. Of course I'll likely end of home brewing the ancestries myself since I think dwarves should be +Int and Elves +Wis instead of the other way around.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I personally support "no attribute penalties from your ancestry, full stop". 4e model of giving +2 to one of two stats from your race and +2 to one of two stats from your class is vastly better.

I've long contemplated simply making every PC just choose between a +2 / +2, +2, -2 / +4, -2 setup back in my 3.x days. But after having only returned to Pathfinder recently, I haven't put it on the table with my players yet. But I'd much rather that than the mess that racial penalties puts into worldbuilding and cultural bias.


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I think +4 to DEX for Goblin is less conducive to balanced design.
Perhaps +2 but with additional bonus to AC and Reflex?

I have no problem with STR penalty to all of them.


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If goblins are going to be a core race, I want to see tieflings, aasimars, and Dragon Empires races in the corebook too.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Goblins could easily have a Wis penalty instead of Str, bring surprisingly strong for their size due to being wiry little bundles of muscle and pepper. Then make gnomes distinct in a different way by making them fey.

I always wondered why Goblins didn't have a Wis or Int penalty considering how crazy and dumb as a stump they're generally presented as. Thinking ovens are a good place to hide.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MidsouthGuy wrote:
If goblins are going to be a core race, I want to see tieflings, aasimars, and Dragon Empires races in the corebook too.

They've already said that there's only going to be one new core race.


CrystalSeas wrote:
MidsouthGuy wrote:
If goblins are going to be a core race, I want to see tieflings, aasimars, and Dragon Empires races in the corebook too.
They've already said that there's only going to be one new core race.

Maybe a large race.

Cantaurs! Half ogre? Something non-humanoid so enlarge person isn't a problem.


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*Thelith wrote:

Maybe a large race.

Cantaurs! Half ogre? Something non-humanoid so enlarge person isn't a problem.

No, it's goblins. They've already announced it.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
I always wondered why Goblins didn't have a Wis or Int penalty considering how crazy and dumb as a stump they're generally presented as. Thinking ovens are a good place to hide.

I've always wonder why Paizo ignored the fact that goblins are as smart as any other non-elf race.


I'm liking the idea of dropping penalties entirely, or making an option to negate them or switch them out to something else. It will allow odd class/race combos to not be dramatically impaired (having your main stat not have a +2 is one thing, but having a -2 is just double suck).

My group is going to start up Ironfang Invasion as an all dwarf party this Saturday (inspired largely by a silly song that caught on we also once did an all crazy-gnome Legacy of Fire that was entertaining). The CHA penalties have already caused one to switch out to a dwarf-based assimar and another to a dwarf-ifrit because the first is playing a cleric and doesn't want to be gimped with channels (and dwarf clerics are supposed to be common, but they are hurt with cha-linked channel) and the second is playing an Archanist and likewise doesn't want to be behind on the various CHA linked abilities. Another was looking at a bloodrager and might end up going dwarf-assimar, but they might just go fighter, they are undecided. So right from the start our all-dwarf concept is a bit shaky due to penalties. At least my ranger and the druid are full-blooded dwarves.

Also, as it is assimars are Just Plain Better because they have no negative and you can pick a subtype to get the bonuses you want. It's not unusual for our group to have 2 assimars out of 5 players.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:


I mean I think they're pretty distinct already. And nobody thinks Sylphs and Elves are the same, but they're both Medium Races with +2 Dex/+2 Int/-2 Con

No no, we definitely call them "fart elves."


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Being Small, as written now, already makes you weaker without a STR penalty; you have to use smaller weapons and lighter armor. The STR penalty on top of it is just insult to injury.


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Zhayne wrote:
Being Small, as written now, already makes you weaker without a STR penalty; you have to use smaller weapons and lighter armor. The STR penalty on top of it is just insult to injury.

I don't really get the "lighter armor" part. Armor bonus doesn't care about your size nor does carry weight, and Armor sized for Small Characters weighs half. A Halfling with 14 Str and a Human with 14 Str can wear plate armor and it will be +9 AC for both, and the halfling will actually come out better because his weighs half. He's even losing less speed than the human, though he's still slower. And if you build a character for combat well, damage dice stop being relevant pretty quickly (though, maybe not in PF2E, from what we know so far...)

Small things being weaker and bigger things being stronger makes perfect sense and it's something everyone can instantly wrap their head around. The small races are only partly defined by their Ability Score modifiers, they all get special stuff to differentiate them beyond that.

They're fine as is. It's not like you're forbidden from playing a high Str small-raced character, it will just require more investment (if you're using point buy).


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Goblins could easily have a Wis penalty instead of Str, bring surprisingly strong for their size due to being wiry little bundles of muscle and pepper. Then make gnomes distinct in a different way by making them fey.
I always wondered why Goblins didn't have a Wis or Int penalty considering how crazy and dumb as a stump they're generally presented as. Thinking ovens are a good place to hide.

Ovens is good places! Small, like goblins, have shield-doors, and fire! for after you get out and get the longshanks!


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Definitely should normalize the speeds at 30' like Starfinder, though. Leave 20' for races that have a physical reason for moving slower (like dwarfy dwarves, merfolk, oread, etc).

Shadow Lodge

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If they change ability point buy to a flat 1 for 1 like starfinder, then the racial ability modifiers become a whole lot less important.


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I actually like the idea of small races being physically weaker and being less powerful in melee. Seeing gripli fighters, etc. doing more-or-less the same melee damage as half-orcs as always seemed very silly to me.

Silver Crusade

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Dragonborn3 wrote:
What if we removed all racial/ancestry things and your race was just flavor? [/idea that will never happen]

Because that is nonsense. Different races excelling at different things makes sense, those same races not being as good at other things also makes sense. This notion that everything should be the same with race and/or class is silly. This is the same thing as those who want full casters to not be penalized for multi-classing and want the ability to keep their full spell progression.

The no penalty thing also says "everybody gets a trophy"

But then again, I'm still fine with the notion that Dwarves shouldn't be able to cast arcane spells, but these Golarion dwarves, they're different I guess.


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since ability scores will be increasing at a faster rate and many rolls will be adding +Level, any ancestry bonus will be rendered negligible pretty quickly so I feel they'll probably be looking at other ways to distinguish between the options


CrystalSeas wrote:
*Thelith wrote:

Maybe a large race.

Cantaurs! Half ogre? Something non-humanoid so enlarge person isn't a problem.

No, it's goblins. They've already announced it.

The point of a playtest is to get player feedback. If enough people say they want more races in the corebook, Paizo will probably listen.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

They are looking for very specific kinds of feedback. So specific that they've got surveys for each thing they want feedback on

Playtest Feedback

FAQ wrote:

. We will take a few weeks to focus on each section, giving you a chance to play it with your friends and submit feedback in the form of detailed experience surveys.

Are you really going to listen to our feedback?


Absolutely! We'll have a survey system in place that will collect feedback on a weekly basis. It will be categorized and easily sortable on our end. We'll make sure that voices are heard and tweaks can be made.

They've been very, very clear that the 12 classes and 12 ancestries aren't going to change


I am happy with STR penalty for all Small races, unless one appears which is especially strong for size.

Liberty's Edge

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Look I've already got my Goblin Barbarian planned for 2E. Penalties or no penalties, my boi is going to be wrecking stuff.


CrystalSeas wrote:
They've been very, very clear that the 12 classes and 12 ancestries aren't going to change

I mean, page count (since they have to actually print the thing on paper) is sort of non-negotiable. So if they were gonna add more ancestries or classes, they would have to cut something else. Considering that they are absolutely going to print more classes and ancestries in later books, "fitting as many as possible in the core rules" isn't really advisable.

Shadow Lodge

Kain Dragonhand wrote:
Different races excelling at different things makes sense, those same races not being as good at other things also makes sense.

Which is something the Ancestry system sounds like it could handle really easily.


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CrystalSeas wrote:
They've been very, very clear that the 12 classes and 12 ancestries aren't going to change

Dwarf, Elf, Goblin, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Human is 8 ancestries. If there actually are 12 ancestries (I never heard this, only that they were adding goblins), it sure sounds to me like the other 4 slots are up for grabs. :)


Fuzzypaws wrote:
CrystalSeas wrote:
They've been very, very clear that the 12 classes and 12 ancestries aren't going to change
Dwarf, Elf, Goblin, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Human is 8 ancestries. If there actually are 12 ancestries (I never heard this, only that they were adding goblins), it sure sounds to me like the other 4 slots are up for grabs. :)

The other four are going to be Flumph, Half-Flumph, Half-Halfing and Murderhobo.

Kidding of course. I think the mention of 12 was a mistake. It seems pretty clear that it's the PF1 races plus Goblin.


Doktor Weasel wrote:
The other four are going to be Flumph, Half-Flumph, Half-Halfing and Murderhobo.

The Paizo Blog: Murderhobo thread is the solution to world energy needs.


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Kobolds in core or the world burns!


Fuzzypaws wrote:
CrystalSeas wrote:
They've been very, very clear that the 12 classes and 12 ancestries aren't going to change
Dwarf, Elf, Goblin, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Human is 8 ancestries. If there actually are 12 ancestries (I never heard this, only that they were adding goblins), it sure sounds to me like the other 4 slots are up for grabs. :)

Most likely it's 5 flavors of human. ;)


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Why not Kobolds?!?!?!


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YEAH! WHY NOT KOBOLDS?!


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Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
Why not Kobolds?!?!?!

Goblins ate them... With hot sauce... and pickles.


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*marks down on to do list* Wipe out goblin race. got it. check.


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Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
Why not Kobolds?!?!?!

Kobolds aren't Paizo's unofficial mascot. Go check with Kobold Press. Frankly Paizo should probably just replace the Golem mascot with a Goblin and make it official. I don't think most people even remember the golem, but big headed gobos are assosiated with the Paizo brand.

Also fun fact: The element Cobalt is named after Kobolds, a fairy or goblin from German folklore. Kobolds were said to replace silver ore with a useless and even poisonous counterfeit which which was later identified as an element and named Cobalt. Interestingly the toxic reputation mostly seems to come from cobalt ores usually containing arsenic as well, not the cobalt itself. Nickel has a similar name origin, with Nick and Nickel being a name for a goblin, devil or evil spirit (e.g. Old Nick) who did a similar trick with copper ore and nickel. Nickel also gives part of the name to Pumpernickel bread. Pumpern being a word for a flatulent person. Literally devil's fart bread. Folklore, elements and farts. Woo!


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Well if people wouldn't steal our candles we wouldn't steal your silver! (disclaimer we will still probably steal your silver.)


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Dwarf, Elf, Goblin, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Human is 8 ancestries. If there actually are 12 ancestries (I never heard this, only that they were adding goblins), it sure sounds to me like the other 4 slots are up for grabs. :)

Yep, It's 12 classes and 8 ancestries. My bad


Fuzzypaws wrote:
Or they could get rid of racial ancestry ability penalties entirely, and just have them grant bonuses...

Because players read "penalty" and think "argh, I should avoid this by all means"? It's just a -1. If you play a half-orc (with +2 Str) instead of a full orc, it's also -1. If you play dwarf instead of half-orc, it's again -1. But these two downgrades (when it comes to Str) are perceived as much less problematic as the race which officially gets a "penalty".

While the reduced damage die of a Small weapon are a thing, there are also Medium sized races with a Str penalty, like undine and kitsune - they are usually not recommended for Str focused characters either.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
Why not Kobolds?!?!?!

Kobolds aren't Paizo's unofficial mascot. Go check with Kobold Press. Frankly Paizo should probably just replace the Golem mascot with a Goblin and make it official. I don't think most people even remember the golem, but big headed gobos are assosiated with the Paizo brand.

Also fun fact: The element Cobalt is named after Kobolds, a fairy or goblin from German folklore. Kobolds were said to replace silver ore with a useless and even poisonous counterfeit which which was later identified as an element and named Cobalt. Interestingly the toxic reputation mostly seems to come from cobalt ores usually containing arsenic as well, not the cobalt itself. Nickel has a similar name origin, with Nick and Nickel being a name for a goblin, devil or evil spirit (e.g. Old Nick) who did a similar trick with copper ore and nickel. Nickel also gives part of the name to Pumpernickel bread. Pumpern being a word for a flatulent person. Literally devil's fart bread. Folklore, elements and farts. Woo!

Wikipedia, cobalt wrote:

Cobalt-based superalloys have historically consumed most of the cobalt produced. The temperature stability of these alloys makes them suitable for turbine blades for gas turbines and jet aircraft engines, although nickel-based single crystal alloys surpass them in performance.

Although in 2018 most cobalt in batteries was used in a mobile device, a more recent application for cobalt is rechargeable batteries for electric cars.

It is a key constituent of cobalamin, also known as vitamin B12, the primary biological reservoir of cobalt as an ultratrace element.

Yep, definitely useless. I would clearly take silver that can't keep itself from tarnishing over this.


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The Sideromancer wrote:


Wikipedia, cobalt wrote:

Cobalt-based superalloys have historically consumed most of the cobalt produced. The temperature stability of these alloys makes them suitable for turbine blades for gas turbines and jet aircraft engines, although nickel-based single crystal alloys surpass them in performance.

Although in 2018 most cobalt in batteries was used in a mobile device, a more recent application for cobalt is rechargeable batteries for electric cars.

It is a key constituent of cobalamin, also known as vitamin B12, the primary biological reservoir of cobalt as an ultratrace element.

Yep, definitely useless. I would clearly take silver that can't keep itself from tarnishing over this.

Well those superalloys and batteries were not even dreams in the medieval period when it was thought that little goblins were stealing their ore. Normal steel was still difficult to produce at that point. So useless to them, not to us.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Doktor Weasel wrote:
The other four are going to be Flumph...

Aaaaaaawesome! Best day of my life!

Quote:
Kidding of course.

Dammit!!!

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