If Goblins, Halflings and Gnomes are all going to be core...


Prerelease Discussion

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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
Why not Kobolds?!?!?!
Kobolds aren't Paizo's unofficial mascot. Go check with Kobold Press. Frankly Paizo should probably just replace the Golem mascot with a Goblin and make it official. I don't think most people even remember the golem, but big headed gobos are assosiated with the Paizo brand.

Goblins are Paizo's unofficial mascot, sure, and I do like them and think them being a race is fine. Kobolds though are pretty clearly the single most popular monster race of all, and they could find room for a 9th race. :)


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^^^^^^^^^^^


Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
Well if people wouldn't steal our candles we wouldn't steal your silver! (disclaimer we will still probably steal your silver.)

It really IS your fault for making those sweet, sweet candles... I hear "You no take candle!" and now i just HAVE to take that candle! ;)


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
they could find room for a 9th race. :)

If you look on the back cover, way down at the bottom, in 8 pt type, you may find an asterisk *kobolds are a playable ancestry.

But you might need a magnifying glass to find it.


CrystalSeas wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
they could find room for a 9th race. :)

If you look on the back cover, way down at the bottom, in 8 pt type, you may find an asterisk *kobolds are a playable ancestry.

But you might need a magnifying glass to find it.

LOL Yeah, but that are actually goblins that have found candles... ;)


I ♥ Kobolds too.

They are not ready to be core...unless they are very empowered in the 2nd edition.

Here's hoping.


Frankly I'm in favor of removing stat bonuses and penalties from ancestries entirely. Even with the move away from "race" terminology, it calls to mind all sorts of unpleasant pseudoscience for me - and it discourages creativity in ancestry/ class combos.
I'd prefer they just have ancestry traits, since those a) tend to be more derived from culture and b) often have a narrower impact on your ability to be whatever class you want, especially if alternate traits return.


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worldhopper wrote:

Frankly I'm in favor of removing stat bonuses and penalties from ancestries entirely. Even with the move away from "race" terminology, it calls to mind all sorts of unpleasant pseudoscience for me - and it discourages creativity in ancestry/ class combos.

I'd prefer they just have ancestry traits, since those a) tend to be more derived from culture and b) often have a narrower impact on your ability to be whatever class you want, especially if alternate traits return.

I would have difficulty finding the distribution of Strength values for three-foot gnomes and six-and-a-half-foot half-orcs plausible, though, so I am all for stat bonuses and penalties on that scale.


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the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
worldhopper wrote:

Frankly I'm in favor of removing stat bonuses and penalties from ancestries entirely. Even with the move away from "race" terminology, it calls to mind all sorts of unpleasant pseudoscience for me - and it discourages creativity in ancestry/ class combos.

I'd prefer they just have ancestry traits, since those a) tend to be more derived from culture and b) often have a narrower impact on your ability to be whatever class you want, especially if alternate traits return.
I would have difficulty finding the distribution of Strength values for three-foot gnomes and six-and-a-half-foot half-orcs plausible, though, so I am all for stat bonuses and penalties on that scale.

Don't look at a halfling as another race, think of it as a human who has been hit with a shrink ray and is now half as tall. It's the same person, with the same physical build and so the same Strength score, just smaller.

This shrunken human is now weaker on an objective scale because the cross-sectional area of his bones and muscles is smaller. However, he is now stronger on a subjective scale in relation to his own mass and volume. He doesn't hit as hard as when he was full size because he has less mass and generates less momentum, and he can't lift as many bags of sand at a time... But from his perspective he is actually hitting harder and lifting bigger objects, because less of his strength is going to compensating for his own mass. His shorter legs may give him a reduced stride, but at the same time his legs are stronger in relation to his reduced mass and can propel him higher and faster than at full size.

This is why I feel like size can be represented by just a carry modifier, and a flat modifier to damage and other traits. You don't actually have to change the Strength score. It's reasonable to me for a halfling to have Strength 18, the differences are just accounted for by his size. Small races don't need Strength penalties.

On that flat modifier note, I hope PF2E takes the opportunity to clean up the wonky crap that is weapon dice scaling and which makes Enlarged Greatsword such a strong route in PF1. Just say that being Large gives you a flat +2 bonus to damage regardless of dagger or Greatsword and be done with it.


Zhayne wrote:
Being Small, as written now, already makes you weaker without a STR penalty; you have to use smaller weapons and lighter armor. The STR penalty on top of it is just insult to injury.

I am curious if this will still be the case in PF2. In starfinder they got rid of a lot of the being small tax. The main changes were the initial racial HP for small races was generally a few points less than a mid sized person but other than that there was not much advantage or disadvantage being small. For weapons they did normal damage they just needed to be sized appropriately and existing weapons could be modified for correct usage.


Quandary wrote:

I think +4 to DEX for Goblin is less conducive to balanced design.

Perhaps +2 but with additional bonus to AC and Reflex?

I have no problem with STR penalty to all of them.

It depends on how they work the initial stat allocation. If they can start with stats above 18 then +4 to one stat is probably OP. But if it is bounded like they did in starfinder where no stat goes over 18 to start no matter how much + bonus attributes you have it just means goblins wind up having high dex and some otherwise more balanced stats.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:


I would have difficulty finding the distribution of Strength values for three-foot gnomes and six-and-a-half-foot half-orcs plausible, though, so I am all for stat bonuses and penalties on that scale.

Don't look at a halfling as another race, think of it as a human who has been hit with a shrink ray and is now half as tall. It's the same person, with the same physical build and so the same Strength score, just smaller.

This shrunken human is now weaker on an objective scale because the cross-sectional area of his bones and muscles is smaller. However, he is now stronger on a subjective scale in relation to his own mass and volume. He doesn't hit as hard as when he was full size because he has less mass and generates less momentum, and he can't lift as many bags of sand at a time... But from his perspective he is actually hitting harder and lifting bigger objects, because less of his strength is going to compensating for his own mass. His shorter legs may give him a reduced stride, but at the same time his legs are stronger in relation to his reduced mass and can propel him higher and faster than at full size.

Yes, but this works according to the square-cube law. A human reduced to half their previous size in all three dimensions feels twice as strong on their own subjective scale, because their weight has gone down by a factor of eight, and their muscle attachment area (which is the limiting factor on strength) has only gone down by a factor of four. Swinging a weapon an eighth the weight with a quarter the strength will feel to you like you are hitting twice as hard, but the weapon's momentum will actually be reduced by a factor of 32. If I wanted to argue solely strict physical and biological accuracy, reverse-engineering from a fourfold drop on the carrying capacity table in the CRB would reduce an Str 18 human to approximately Str 8. I'm not in favour of strength penalties that severe for small races, but I do think there should be some.


If the Wyvarans don't make the PF2 Bestiary 1 cut, maybe we can have Kobolds work as our resident "playable draconic humanoid" race... I mean, ancestry.
High level ancestry feats might grant them fly-able wings and breath weapons, and the like.

This ancestry feat business really sounds promising...
(Well, it's not like racial feats did not exist in PF1 or else, but well, new edition and upgrades to the basic premise is a thing, so...)


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Hello, I'm Bilbo the Barbarian, 18 Strength, level 1. I weigh 30 pounds, the same as a 4-year-old human child, and I can carry 225 pounds. (A little more when 'roid raging...) Suck it, humans.


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the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Yes, but this works according to the square-cube law.

Well we know pathfinder throws all that out or you couldn't have Colossal creatures flying around... We can't really look at pathfinder creatures using real life physics/logic.


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Lucas Yew wrote:

If the Wyvarans don't make the PF2 Bestiary 1 cut, maybe we can have Kobolds work as our resident "playable draconic humanoid" race... I mean, ancestry.

High level ancestry feats might grant them fly-able wings and breath weapons, and the like.

This ancestry feat business really sounds promising...
(Well, it's not like racial feats did not exist in PF1 or else, but well, new edition and upgrades to the basic premise is a thing, so...)

Or just a "draconic" ancestry for playable dragonblooded humanoids that covers all sorts from kobolds to half-dragons.


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graystone wrote:
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Yes, but this works according to the square-cube law.
Well we know pathfinder throws all that out or you couldn't have Colossal creatures flying around...

Maybe Golarion just has a closer connection to the Elemental Plane of Air than Earth does? (Or maybe the inside of a red dragon works like a hot-air balloon.)


I do hope they change the strength penalty to wisdom. Makes way way more sense when looking at the flavor of Paizo goblins


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MMCJawa wrote:
I do hope they change the strength penalty to wisdom. Makes way way more sense when looking at the flavor of Paizo goblins

Idd. Goblins lack of common sense is pretty evident.

"What do you mean this doesn't look safe, huh?"


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the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Maybe Golarion just has a closer connection to the Elemental Plane of Air than Earth does? (Or maybe the inside of a red dragon works like a hot-air balloon.)

{stops eating book} Me pretty sure dragons fly same way zeppelins fly. First time me meet red dragon, me take a torch and climb down throat to see if they full of hydrogen.


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And Gip know just how to do it! Quickly, to the Hinden-goblin!


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the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
graystone wrote:
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Yes, but this works according to the square-cube law.
Well we know pathfinder throws all that out or you couldn't have Colossal creatures flying around...
Maybe Golarion just has a closer connection to the Elemental Plane of Air than Earth does? (Or maybe the inside of a red dragon works like a hot-air balloon.)

So Roc's are like party balloons?


The whole dragons are balloons things reminds me of that old movie. The flight of dragons (I think that was its name anyways I saw it forever ago on cartoon network when they did the cartoon movies on sunday.)

Dark Archive

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I'm in the Team "If Goblins get to be Core Ancestry, Kobold Ancestry should get same treatment of getting into cities without problems" :D


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I think it's too early yet to say that gobs will be freely allowed into human cities everywhere without any problems, but yeah, kobolds should be allowed there too.

And given protein shakes and steroids to knock that -4 STR penalty down to -2.


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Crazy Harry III wrote:
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Maybe Golarion just has a closer connection to the Elemental Plane of Air than Earth does? (Or maybe the inside of a red dragon works like a hot-air balloon.)
{stops eating book} Me pretty sure dragons fly same way zeppelins fly. First time me meet red dragon, me take a torch and climb down throat to see if they full of hydrogen.

Look, we discussed this at the meeting. You need to shape up if you're going to adapt to human society. We all agreed. We voted.

I know it's hard to use human slang, and to stop referencing to yourself as "me" (it's I), and using complete sentences has been a challenge even for one such as myself, but we have to try. It's the only way we don't get erradicated as a species.

Please try to remember.

Dark Archive

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I personally support "no attribute penalties from your ancestry, full stop". 4e model of giving +2 to one of two stats from your race and +2 to one of two stats from your class is vastly better.

If we have to keep the -2 from one's ancestry, please give us a choice of -2 to a couple of stats. Like if a Dwarf could choose between -2 Dex and -2 Cha, or a Gnome could choose between -2 Wis and -2 Str.

Oh, definitely. I love the idea that some dwarves would be less handicapped at being sorcerers (or bards, or paladins, or other Cha-friendly roles), or that some Halflings would be more 'shire' halflings, living out in country away from the human cities, and being more +Wis and less +Cha.

I've house-ruled two different types of elves (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con or +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str), two different types of dwarves (+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha or +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Dex) and two different types of halflings (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str or +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str), but would love to see something like that, or something even more versatile, as a core option.


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If Dex-to-Damage was a valid option for, say, a level 1 Halfling Barbarian, then Strength penalties wouldn't be a big deal.


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!Ko Bie Len wrote:


Look, we discussed this at the meeting. You need to shape up if you're going to adapt to human society. We all agreed. We voted.

I know it's hard to use human slang, and to stop referencing to yourself as "me" (it's I), and using complete sentences has been a challenge even for one such as myself, but we have to try. It's the only way we don't get erradicated as a species.

Please try to remember.

"Human words are painful and burn us, but they have a certain beauty to them, like the snapping jaws of an angry goblin dog. The GrandMeet didn't affirm the status of mean dogs before I left, so they're still on the Goblin 'Most Wanted' along with evil horses, right?"


BTW, can anybody tell (or link) me to the story behind Goblins' "promotion" to Core?
Personally I just didn't feel it at all, and would have voted on something like Ratfolk 10x.
(which would've also established more continuity with Starfinder, being based in same setting, just time-shifted)
Actually, Ratfolk are pretty Alchemist-orientated AFAIK, so would have been perfect choince instead of Goblins. ???
Paizo should be close to wrapping up CS coverage of all "Inner Sea" nations by time P2E goes final,
so Core Ratfolk would be convenient ice-breaker for logical next step of detailing other regions they've introduced
but not given solid development of, e.g. Tian Xia (as well as Casmaron and Southern Garund).
(and realistically they can't think of doing Kaladay before substantially detailing both Tien culture and Casmaron).

Or relatedly, any angle on removal of Half-Elves/Orcs? Is there any changes to them in setting which would parallel removal from Core?
I could see changing to them be no longer fully self-sustaining "race", even mating with each other only minority of off-spring would be Half-Elves/Orcs,
so without constant "interaction" between Humans and Elves/Orcs the "race" eventually dies out, albeit perhaps with "carriers" within Human populace.
(actually, the idea that Half-Elf + Half-Orc pairings might be only majority likelihood of resulting Half-(either)-X offspring seems intriguing to me)


Quandary wrote:

BTW, can anybody tell (or link) me to the story behind Goblins' "promotion" to Core?

Personally I just didn't feel it at all, and would have voted on something like Ratfolk 10x.
(which would've also established more continuity with Starfinder, being based in same setting, just time-shifted)
Actually, Ratfolk are pretty Alchemist-orientated AFAIK, so would have been perfect choince instead of Goblins. ???
Paizo should be close to wrapping up CS coverage of all "Inner Sea" nations by time P2E goes final,
so Core Ratfolk would be convenient ice-breaker for logical next step of detailing other regions they've introduced
but not given solid development of, e.g. Tian Xia (as well as Casmaron and Southern Garund).
(and realistically they can't think of doing Kaladay before substantially detailing both Tien culture and Casmaron... so get cracking! ;-)).

Or relatedly, any angle on removal of Half-Elves/Orcs? Is there any changes to them in setting which would parallel removal from Core?
I could see changing to them be no longer fully self-sustaining "race", even mating with each other only minority of off-spring would be Half-Elves/Orcs,
so without constant "interaction" between Humans and Elves/Orcs the "race" eventually dies out, albeit perhaps with "carriers" within Human populace.
(actually, the idea that Half-Elf + Half-Orc pairings might be only majority likelihood of resulting Half-(either)-X offspring seems intriguing to me)

We still don't know the in-setting reasoning for Goblins becoming core. It really seems like it's mostly because Pathfinder goblins are popular crazy little things that have become an unofficial mascot of Paizo and Pathfinder. I do agree that Ratfolk are a more justifiable addition considering how they actually fit into normal society (mostly on the fringes, but they're there unlike goblins).

Tangent: I rather like ratfolk, although I have to say, I'm not really a fan of their look in Starfinder. Something just seems off about them, I think it's mostly the leg and head proportions, I'm not entirely sure. I like the PF artwork for them fine, but in SF they look wrong. This one looks cool. This one, not so much.

I haven't heard anything about removal of Half-Elves or Half-Orcs. As far as I know they're still there.


Well there is no inherent need for "in-setting" rationale for "Core" format, that is just rules presentation... equally true for inclusion of Goblins and exclusion of Half-X. (please tell me if I'm off on my understanding re: exclusion of Half-Elves/Orcs)

I agree though that Goblins' inclusion feels "off" UNLESS there is some major setting change... which I really don't see basis for. After all, their popularity was based on their disfunctional Gremlin stylings, i.e. opposite of what you want from cooperation-focused Core race. Like you, my impression is that Goblins were chosen because Paizo felt they were widely popular and Paizo specific trope... but that doesn't justify including them as Core Race. People weren't widely playing them even though their Race stats were trivially available. If that really was the basis of the choice, IMHO that is misguided and cheap marketing trick which undervalues and disrupts game itself.

I guess I don't get caught up in differences in art-work like that...variations in limb thickness doesn't seem more than amongst real Humans. Is it such a stretch that there is sub-racial variation amongst Ratfolk? I mean, some of them lived on planets with different gravity for 1000s of years BEFORE Starfinder. And besides, who is to say all art-work is "realistic"? It just clearly isn't "photorealistic". Those seem much less divergent than how real humans can be depicted in art by different stylistic norms, and they are after all depicting worlds 1000s of years apart... Would you expect ancient or medieval artists to depict modern techno-soldiers like modern artists do? I do agree art variations like catfolk have, some being more 'humans with cat features' and others 'cats with bipedal humanoid features' is too wide a gap to bridge.


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Quandary wrote:

Well there is no inherent need for "in-setting" rationale for "Core" format, that is just rules presentation... equally true for inclusion of Goblins and exclusion of Half-X. (please tell me if I'm off on my understanding re: exclusion of Half-Elves/Orcs)

I agree though that Goblins' inclusion feels "off" UNLESS there is some major setting change... which I really don't see basis for. After all, their popularity was based on their disfunctional Gremlin stylings, i.e. opposite of what you want from cooperation-focused Core race. Like you, my impression is that Goblins were chosen because Paizo felt they were widely popular and Paizo specific trope... but that doesn't justify including them as Core Race. People weren't widely playing them even though their Race stats were trivially available. If that really was the basis of the choice, IMHO that is misguided and cheap marketing trick which undervalues and disrupts game itself.

I guess I don't get caught up in differences in art-work like that...variations in limb thickness doesn't seem more than amongst real Humans. Is it such a stretch that there is sub-racial variation amongst Ratfolk? I mean, some of them lived on planets with different gravity for 1000s of years BEFORE Starfinder. And besides, who is to say all art-work is "realistic"? It just clearly isn't "photorealistic". Those seem much less divergent than how real humans can be depicted in art by different stylistic norms, and they are after all depicting worlds 1000s of years apart... Would you expect ancient or medieval artists to depict modern techno-soldiers like modern artists do? I do agree art variations like catfolk have, some being more 'humans with cat features' and others 'cats with bipedal humanoid features' is too wide a gap to bridge.

Paizo has said they're only adding Goblins to the Core, they aren't removing anything. No idea where you saw they're getting rid of half-elves and half-orcs, they aren't.

Shadow Lodge

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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Tangent: I rather like ratfolk, although I have to say, I'm not really a fan of their look in Starfinder. Something just seems off about them, I think it's mostly the leg and head proportions, I'm not entirely sure. I like the PF artwork for them fine, but in SF they look wrong. This one looks cool. This one, not so much.

GOOD GRIEF YES. The Starfinder one has a huge head and blocky torso with teensy stick legs and arms. That's almost painful to look at. Augh.


Crayon wrote:
While Gnomes and Halflings have similar stats in PF1, Goblins are actually pretty different. That said, it sounds (from the Glass Cannon podcast) like they've changed how Size works so maybe a Str penalty won't be necessary?

That would be cool. My house rule that turns STR into a kind of strength-to-mass ratio and everyone has a SIZ attribute that fluctuates a bit more than small, medium, large caused enough confusion that I stopped using it, even though I still love it.

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