Dumb Question on Saving Throws...


Rules Questions


So, yeah... I know that I'll probably be getting backlash for what I am currently trying to do, considering its a sub-optimal build that isn't the extreme best face melting build in existence... but I was hoping for some rules clarification regarding Saving Throws for a Meditation Master character that I'm currently building... Everyone is okay with it, so long as I can make sure the rules don't get too complicated.

As a heads up, these questions include the following: the Blind condition, Body Control, Mindful Meditation, Meditation Master, and Blinding Sword Style.

1st: Are Blind Characters required to make saving throws against enemy Gaze attacks?

2nd: What type of Fort saving throws don't include poison, disease, starvation, or effects that would make you fatigued or exhausted? Are these types of saving throws common enough to take a feat for a +1 Bonus that only affect these types of Fort saves? It also halves the essentials for living for everything.

3rd: What type of Will saving throws don't include charm, compulsion, emotion, and fear effects? Are these types of saving throws common enough to take a feat for a +1 Bonus that only affect these types of Will saves? Also, this feat gives a +5 bonus vs Feint and Intimidation, with a +1 bonus for every 5 levels.

4th: Does Mindful Meditation's "These bonuses increase by 1 for every 5 Hit Dice you have" apply to the Will Saving Throw? Or only to the bonus vs Feint and Intimidation?

5th: Speaking of Feint, can a blind character be Feinted against?

6th: How does the Scent from Sensory Mastery stack with the Scent from Blinding Sword Style? Do I get 20ft or 60ft Scent?


Hurts my head to read your post....can you simplify the questions?

1: blind and blindfolded characters are immune to gaze attacks. They are also unable to make gaze attacks.

2: For starters, just about all the saves for environmental conditions like cold, hot weather, altitude sickness and so forth won't be in the listed groups, but will exhaust/fatigue your character. They are common enough, though it does depend on your GM.

3: lots of spells and effects require will saves. The roll to disbelieve illusions, for example.

4: no clue. Provide a link to class/ability in question, not a partial quote.

5: Yes, feint doesn't require sight. But they would have to be able to percieve the feint, so sight-only based feinting won't work. Basically, it depends how you describe your use of feint to the GM.

6: Please provide links or complete quotes when you have complex questions involving multiple rules for several sources.


@Pax Miles - I generally use the Archives of Nethys search engine to find material which I'm unsure where to find from my collection of books. Likewise, D20pfsrd is a good source for this information.

The Blind condition (Link!) doesn't give information on this. If the character is Blinded (not Blind Folded) are they susceptible to Gaze attacks?

Additionally, here are the links for Body Control (Link!), Mindful Meditation (Link!), Sensory Mastery (Link!), and Blinding Blade Style (Link!).

I highly recommend these resources when you're posting on the forums, so you don't have to reply on someone else copy/pasting the information for you.

(Edit) Also... I'm ~95% certain that "Sickness" = "Disease"....


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Anyone who could help you knows what Archives of Nethys is. However, as a courtesy to those you are asking for help, it is polite and expected to link the abilities in question, especially as many folks like to paraphrase and many abilities have different, similarly or even identically named game elements running around.

Also, please do not open up by strawmanning and insulting the very people you are asking for help. It is likewise bad form, and has a strong chance of chasing away people who could otherwise help you. Also, optimization exists on a spectrum. To say that a build is mechanically ineffectual and should be strongly reconsidered is not the same as saying a build fails for not being the most powerful thing ever.

1) Your question is not about the Blind condition. Your question is about the Gaze monster power. A blind individual, as the power is written, can be affected by Gaze abilities if their eyes are open and uncovered, and they are looking in the direction of the gazer. However, for all practical purposes, there is almost no reason to ever treat a blind character as if their eyes are open.

2) Various spell effects, and some environmental nonlethal effects, most notably death saves and assorted negative energy affects and ability drain/damage, but that list covers most of the things you'd roll Fortitude for. Regardless, it is not remotely worth a feat. Great Fortitude is a +2 to all Fortitude saves and doesn't require that you figure out whether or not it applies every time you roll a Fortitude save. The only part of the feat you reference that might be worth a feat is the halved need for sleep, but that's only for very specific types of games.

3) Just take Iron Will. You'll get twice the bonus without needing to know if it applies, and intimidation and feint are things you seldom need to worry about to the same extent as "all will saves."

4) I find it highly unlikely that the feat would give a +5 to most Will saves.

5) Yes, Feint can still work on blinded characters. Feinting can be more than visual. Any blind character who is not flat-footed by their blindness has some means of tracking enemy movement, and that movement can be deceptive to them the same as anyone else.

6) The abilities specify how they interact. One grants or doubles. The other grants or increases by ten. Use whichever is more favorable. And that does not mean 60'. Sensory Mastery either grants Scent at its default range of 30' or doubles it if you already have it. Blinded Blade either grants Scent at 10' or increases its range by 10' if you already have it. The most favorable is 40', which is Sensory Mastery granting you 30' scent and Blinded Blade increasing the range by 10'.


Omnius wrote:
6) The abilities specify how they interact. One grants or doubles. The other grants or increases by ten. Use whichever is more favorable. And that does not mean 60'. Sensory Mastery either grants Scent at its default range of 30' or doubles it if you already have it. Blinded Blade either grants Scent at 10' or increases its range by 10' if you already have it. The most favorable is 40', which is Sensory Mastery granting you 30' scent and Blinded Blade increasing the range by 10'.

what if its an orc with a base 30foot scent would you apply the 10 foot increase 1st then the doubling of the other ability or double 1st then add 10?


@Omnius - Sorry for my original post, I've had a rather interesting history on the Paizo Advice boards. Lets just say there have been a few cases where I've asked for casual advice for a casual build for a casual game, and got put on the chopping block for using the absolute most optimal builds to facemelt everything. I didn't mean for my animosity to come up on the Rules thread - as I'm not asking for rules guidelines rather than advice.

Moving forward, regarding any rules questions regarding specific items in the books, I'll keep in mind to post the exact wording from the page so that people don't have to search for it.

1) Understandable, but what about those characters who are naturally blind?

2) Understandable... though I might still take this feat for the sole reason of half sleep, drink, and food - my DM loves playing with those things so it would be nice to be prepared. I'll keep those checks in mind for if/when they occur.

3 & 4) Every time I read this feat, it gets more confusing and I just can't understand that last sentence.... I'll probably just ignore it. It isn't worth the headache it's causing.

5) Valid points, I was just hoping for RAW rules that would solidify it one way or the other lol.

6) Woops, donno how that typo got past my initial post... Yeah, I assumed 40' or 20' - the wording was confusing so I didn't know which one would be more accurate....

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Are there any scent specific rules I should read other than what's given on the Scent description?

----

@Doomman47 - That.... is a very valid question... I would assume it would be Double +10, so 70', but I could be wrong. Could someone verify this?

-----

(Edit) Another question.... Do feats earned from Level 1 Class bonuses (e.g.: Monk's or Fighters Bonus Feats) count as Prerequests for other Level 1 feats (e.g.: Level 1 or Human Bonus Feat)?


TheMonkeyFish wrote:
(Edit) Another question.... Do feats earned from Level 1 Class bonuses (e.g.: Monk's or Fighters Bonus Feats) count as Prerequests for other Level 1 feats (e.g.: Level 1 or Human Bonus Feat)?

yes


Being naturally blind is not relevant to the rules as written.

The Gaze universal monster ability lists three defenses. Avert your gaze, close your eyes, or wear a blindfold. Whether or not your eyes actually work or have ever worked is irrelevant to the rules as written.

However, always treating a blind character as if their eyes are closed is not an unreasonable approach at the table.


@Doomman47 - Welp, it looks like the only thing I'll be having trouble with until level 2 is ranged attacks. I'll discuss with my DM to make sure he is okay with it, but yeah that seems nice. It looks like the earliest time this build will be complete is level 4.

@Omnius - Thanks, since there isn't a Raw rule, I'll bring this up with the GM to see what he thinks.

This is going to be interesting having a Mute, a Deaf, and a Blind character all on the same team, lmao.


...are these three characters all vanara?


Vanarian Mute Musician Bard
Vanarian Deaf curse Oracle
Vanarian Blind Monk

This is going to be fun! Lmao


TheMonkeyFish wrote:

3rd: What type of Will saving throws don't include charm, compulsion, emotion, and fear effects? Are these types of saving throws common enough to take a feat for a +1 Bonus that only affect these types of Will saves? Also, this feat gives a +5 bonus vs Feint and Intimidation, with a +1 bonus for every 5 levels.

4th: Does Mindful Meditation's "These bonuses increase by 1 for every 5 Hit Dice you have" apply to the Will Saving Throw? Or only to the bonus vs Feint and Intimidation?

TheMonkeyFish wrote:
3 & 4) Every time I read this feat, it gets more confusing and I just can't understand that last sentence.... I'll probably just ignore it. It isn't worth the headache it's causing.

The Mindful Meditation feat requires Meditation Master. The latter does so little, I feel it is nothing more than a feat tax for the former. Getting a scaling feat bonus for some will saves at the price of two feats is not too bat.

As written, you do get the +5 to some saves at 20th level. However, the DCs don't change as they are listed as bonuses.

/cevah

Sczarni

Pax Miles wrote:

1: blind and blindfolded characters are immune to gaze attacks. They are also unable to make gaze attacks.

unless they are Mesmerists (certain archetype allows blindfolded gaze attacks, go figure).

#5 The classic "tap them on the right shoulder and sneak around to their left" feint employed by everyone, everywhere, at some point in time, on some friend.

Sczarni

Omnius wrote:

Being naturally blind is not relevant to the rules as written.

The Gaze universal monster ability lists three defenses. Avert your gaze, close your eyes, or wear a blindfold. Whether or not your eyes actually work or have ever worked is irrelevant to the rules as written.

However, always treating a blind character as if their eyes are closed is not an unreasonable approach at the table.

While this is true, you might wish to consult the "blind" rules instead of the "gaze" rules. "Immune to gaze attacks" means they need no other defense.


maouse wrote:
While this is true, you might wish to consult the "blind" rules instead of the "gaze" rules. "Immune to gaze attacks" means they need no other defense.

The blind condition does not list immunity to gaze attacks under its effects.


That's pedantic to the point of torture.


blahpers wrote:
That's pedantic to the point of torture.

I'm not saying you should hit blind characters with gaze attacks. But in a question about rules, the topic is rules. And when told to look at a condition for a detail about a condition, pointing out that detail isn't actually there is also relevant.

Yes, treating blind characters as immune to gaze attacks is reasonable. At a table, I doubt anyone would or should ever subject a blind character to a gaze attack. But if the question is about the written rules of the game (which, if someone actually considers, "Are Blind Characters required to make saving throws against enemy Gaze attacks?" a legitimate question, they probably are), that immunity only exists in the description of gaze attacks if you interpret blind characters as always being blindfolded or having their eyes shut.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You have to read all the rules and apply some common sense, and realize this isn't a legal contract but a set of rules that expects basic reading comprehension.

"Only looking directly at a creature with a gaze attack leaves an opponent vulnerable."

It is pretty common knowledge that to look at something requires sight.

"Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the creature or shutting one’s eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent."

The part before the colon is a typical tactic to be employed. The part I bolded is what the tactic is trying to achieve. The section in parenthesis is some other possible ways to achieve that (note that turning one's back would achieve not being able to see the creature but would certainly not achieve 'wearing a blindfold'.) Nowhere does it say that this is an exhaustive list, and reading examples as exclusive options is a mistake.

The idea that it is requires you be believe that if you turn your back to a gaze creature you are safe, but if you put your hands over your eyes (hands are not a blindfold after all) you are not.


Omnius wrote:
blahpers wrote:
That's pedantic to the point of torture.

I'm not saying you should hit blind characters with gaze attacks. But in a question about rules, the topic is rules. And when told to look at a condition for a detail about a condition, pointing out that detail isn't actually there is also relevant.

Yes, treating blind characters as immune to gaze attacks is reasonable. At a table, I doubt anyone would or should ever subject a blind character to a gaze attack. But if the question is about the written rules of the game (which, if someone actually considers, "Are Blind Characters required to make saving throws against enemy Gaze attacks?" a legitimate question, they probably are), that immunity only exists in the description of gaze attacks if you interpret blind characters as always being blindfolded or having their eyes shut.

Gaze wrote:
A gaze special attack takes effect when foes look at the attacking creature’s eyes.

If you're blind, you cannot look at the attacking creature's eyes. Ergo, you are not affected.


Omnius wrote:
maouse wrote:
While this is true, you might wish to consult the "blind" rules instead of the "gaze" rules. "Immune to gaze attacks" means they need no other defense.
The blind condition does not list immunity to gaze attacks under its effects.

There's no need to mention gaze immunity in the blind rules because it's explained in the Gaze rules.

They have to be looking at you for the gaze to function.

So if they are blind, it doesn't work. If they can't see you because you are invisible, it doesn't work. If they can't see you because the lighting level in the room doesn't allow them to see you, it doesn't work. If they just blindfold themselves, or otherwise clamp their eyes shut, it doesn't work.

Gaze attacks are weird in that they have rather defensive rules for an attack ability. The Gaze triggers when others look into your eyes, not when you look into their eyes.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Pax Miles wrote:
Gaze attacks are weird in that they have rather defensive rules for an attack ability. The Gaze triggers when others look into your eyes, not when you look into their eyes.

Note, however, that a creature with a gaze attack can also use it actively.

Rules wrote:
A creature with a gaze attack can actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range. That opponent must attempt a saving throw but can try to avoid this as described above. Thus, it is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before the opponent’s action and once during the creature’s turn.


People, people, you can stop dogpiling on me. I never said to hit the blind people with gaze attacks. I said don't do that.

But when the question is, "Are Blind Characters required to make saving throws against enemy Gaze attacks?" presented as a serious rules question, then I'm gonna treat it like a serious rules question.

My answer, and the answer per the rules is, in no uncertain terms, is that nowhere does it actually say blindness grants immunity to gaze effects.

If you dig in, you can find that interpretation with some asterisks attached that make it a not-invalid interpretation. I have said multiple times I wouldn't subject a blind character to a gaze attack, and would not recommend doing so.

But, the fact remains a blind character that has their eyes is fully capable of opening those eyes and pointing them in a direction. They can look in a direction, regardless of whether their senses make it useful to do so. (Also, true blindness is rare. Most individuals classified as blind have some measure of sight, just not enough to be particularly useful. They can, for example, tell when you turn on a light.)

But the situation where that level of digging in is necessary probably should not come up in game.

Is a blind character immune to gaze attacks?

No. Explicitly, no, per the rules. But the caveats are so minor that for all practical purposes, they should be treated as immune.

Also, the invisibility interaction with gaze attacks is houserule and interpretation not delineated anywhere. It's not an unreasonable houserule. Rules are not physics and yeah table calls and applied reason are appropriate, but that doesn't change what the rules do and do not say.

The rules do not say blindness confers immunity to gaze attacks. You can only kind of get there if you squint at it and selectively interpret the wording.


...I quoted the exact sentence that said that blindness did confer immunity to gaze attacks. : ( Unless you're arguing that you can look at someone's eyes while blind. (Maybe they're only legally blind, as in "no driver's license for you"?)


Omnius wrote:

People, people, you can stop dogpiling on me. I never said to hit the blind people with gaze attacks. I said don't do that.

But when the question is, "Are Blind Characters required to make saving throws against enemy Gaze attacks?" presented as a serious rules question, then I'm gonna treat it like a serious rules question.

My answer, and the answer per the rules is, in no uncertain terms, is that nowhere does it actually say blindness grants immunity to gaze effects.

And we're saying you've got it backwards. Blindness doesn't grant immunity to Gazes, Gazes don't affect blind creatures. There's no need to have immunity on the blindness profile, because you can't target a blind person with a gaze.

Immunity would only need to be mentioned if you could target a blind person with a gaze attack. They are ineligible targets. Same reason Gaze attacks don't work on objects.


blahpers wrote:
...I quoted the exact sentence that said that blindness did confer immunity to gaze attacks. : ( Unless you're arguing that you can look at someone's eyes while blind. (Maybe they're only legally blind, as in "no driver's license for you"?)

Yes, you are entirely capable of opening your eyes and pointing them in a direction while blind. Technically, rules as written, that can make you subject to gaze attacks. There is no reason to ever subject a character to this, but it is how the rules are written.

Looking does not necessitate seeing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Look: verb (used without object)
1. to turn one's eyes toward something or in some direction in order to see.

2. to glance or gaze in a manner specified.

3. to use one's sight or vision in seeking, searching, examining, watching, etc.


Omnius wrote:
blahpers wrote:
...I quoted the exact sentence that said that blindness did confer immunity to gaze attacks. : ( Unless you're arguing that you can look at someone's eyes while blind. (Maybe they're only legally blind, as in "no driver's license for you"?)

Yes, you are entirely capable of opening your eyes and pointing them in a direction while blind. Technically, rules as written, that can make you subject to gaze attacks. There is no reason to ever subject a character to this, but it is how the rules are written.

Looking does not necessitate seeing.

In pathfinder, they are the same. Looking is seeing. Things outside of your field of vision, in pathfinder, are considered invisible. For example, in darkness, a creature with darkvision 60ft treats everything beyond 60ft as being invisible. Or rather, they treat themselves as blind to everything beyond 60ft.

I agree, from a philisophical standpoint, you can look at something with functioning eyes and never really see it for what it is.

As for pointing eyes that don't function, no, that isn't looking. That's like seeing the "eyes" on a moth's wings and saying those are looking at you. If they don't function as eyes, them looking at you is merely an illusion (or misconception). A statue or painting can't look at you, it can be designed to mimic the behaviour of a creature looking, but they aren't actually looking.

Sczarni

I guess "cannot see" and "all activities that rely on vision automatically fail" do not actually say "immune". Ok. Whatever. Pedantic semantics. Blinded = immune to gaze. I guess you just choose not to see it. "Immune = automatic failure"... Nowhere does it say those exact words, but we all understand the meaning.

Gaze attacks state repeatedly they rely on visibility (vision). Ergo, blinded people are immune - unless your contention is now that they automatically fail their saves? After the obvious 50/50 total concealment roll, of course... Not. They are immune.

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