Worries & Queries about Specific Monsters


Prerelease Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My list (for now) w/ some suggestion that occurred to me too:
-Aboleth: Keep them awesome & gooey! Maybe have a reaction illusion like copycat? It'd be neat to see their illusions integrated more into their fighting style.
-Dragons: They'll need lots of coolness added in this new action system, but I wonder how their breaths will balance, especially if they can bite or tail sweep the same round. Also missed some of the flavor from earlier editions. Maybe, since their own pages should be full of examples, there could be one page listing all of their personalities?
-Ettins: These guys used to be the master watchmen, and while they do have a +4, they're way below the giants they used to watch for. I think giving them scent would solve much of this. I'd also like them getting two will saves and/or some other multi-brain abilities.
-Ghasts: The advanced template on Ghouls just didn't seem enough. Maybe shoot for CR 3 base instead.
-Hydras: All critters with 4+ attacks have me wondering, but since it's this creatures main shtick, what's it do? I'd like to see it have enough extra reactions so it's perpetually attacking! "Better put your shield up before swinging!"
-Outsiders: I think that at least the good & evil ones should have some form of sacred/profane bonus (if those remain). I'm thinking to AC, not to increase the regular AC, but to get that touch AC up.
-Owlbears: They need something to differentiate them from "bear immune to animal stuff and you can feel fine about killing". Weren't they once evil? Maybe add a stunning shriek or owl-senses?
-Purple Worms: If swallowing is 1 action...gulp. Round 1: Burrows up, bites, swallows. Reaction: AoO bite. Round 2: Swallow, bite, swallow!!! Aaah! Maybe swallowing is two actions? Maybe stinger does the reaction attacks? (Add Behir here too.) Or is it bite action, grab action, then swallow action?
-Rakshasa: Please keep that SR (or similar aspect) sky high!
-Ropers: At 12 CR, we hardly ever saw them. Maybe add a junior version? Or maybe we just need to delve deeper in future adventures?
-Shadows: I've never liked the 3.x Shadow since it could never come in packs (as it often did previously), or heck even small groups could focus fire for quick kills. It seems the crit-touch issue has been taken care of with touch being a separate action from Str. damage, but maybe we should rethink the amount of damage. How much stat damage (w/o a save) should a CR 3 creature be doing (esp. via touch)?
-Skeleton Champions/Zombie Lords: I love these templates!!! So please balance the CR issues, especially w/ high CR critters that drop to a much lower CR while retaining their high CR offense. On the flip side, Ju-Ju Zombies might need a min. Cha. so they can have/keep the h.p. to go with their increasing CR.
-Wights: Their attack bonus is so, so low...which it might need to be? Hmm... Would like a pack of wights to have meaning.

These last I'm adding on behalf of numerous TPK'd parties...having few issues myself, at least when GMing.
-Ghouls: Maybe multi-stage paralysis? 1st slow, 2nd paralyze? And not always the go to underwater undead or undead-in-a-hole when parties are scouting!
-Harpies: Again, not my issue, but the boards are full of loathing for these gals.

And a request:
Mobs: I love troops, but their stats are only found in esoteric places. And since minions are hard to balance in game, let's break out some mobs or troop, whatever. I think a "generic humanoid war band" would be awesome, maybe it's a base with additions for particular races. And of course zombie hordes (and skeleton and ghoul too!). And manes, larvae, & lemure! Even trolls! I understand building a template for this would have many flaws, but maybe have several base mobs which then can have templates added?
It's such a genre trope for heroes to face hordes, but there's no good way to balance that currently. Please develop these!

Cheers, JMK


Forgot:
-Animated Objects: They need more build options. Maybe even another sample one at a high CR, so 2 pages.
-Rakshasa II: More ties to illusions.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Owlbears need the aura of silence, owls are very silent hunters, would be a cool feature for the Owlbear. I would love to see these as Fey-Beasts and not just as Magical Beasts.

I hope the animated objects get replaced with the Tsukumogami in the first Bestiary of 2nd edition.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Card Game, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Couple I'll theorise on;

Hydras - I suspect they'll get a special ability that takes three actions to fire that lets them attack a bunch of things - maybe make an attack on each adjacent square up to the number of heads?

Ghouls - from other places it seems that conditions have different levels, so I could see a multi level paralysis. As someone who has lost a PFS character to opening a door to suprise round paralysis, start of the round coup de grace I'd be happy for a change!

Skeletal champions etc - given that they seem to be looking closer to the SF monster creation, I suspect these will become grafts, so you'll take an appropriate CR chassis and apply the Zombie Lord graft to make it Zombish

Scarab Sages

Please end the unnecessary distinction, between Grapple and Grab.
Or at least give creatures with appropriate body parts the choice, whether to attempt a grapple, or attack for damage (with a free grab attempt).

While it looked generous, for some creatures to have a bonus rider effect on their attacks, what it meant in practice, was that many creatures (especially oozes), whose entire schtick was to adhere themselves, or engulf a target, were incapable of doing so, because they were having to roll vs Full AC, while grapplers were rolling CMB vs CMD, thus ignoring armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses.

Scarab Sages

Please allow poisons to take effect, on one failed save, rather than requiring two failed saves in a row before effects are felt.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I would like the troop subtype brought back and put into the first bestiary. It fills an important niche that I doubt PF2E will remove, and I would like to see it show up earlier in the cycle so it can get a bit more support


The tarrasque needs a vaguely written anti-death clause that also overlooks something like Possession which makes a single spell defeat pretty easy.

Scarab Sages

Snorter wrote:
Please allow poisons to take effect, on one failed save, rather than requiring two failed saves in a row before effects are felt.

What do you mean? Poisons always have effects when you fail the save (except for poisons with onset times)?

EDIT: Poison Blog for reference.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

MMCJawa wrote:
I would like the troop subtype brought back and put into the first bestiary. It fills an important niche that I doubt PF2E will remove, and I would like to see it show up earlier in the cycle so it can get a bit more support

If they're going to do so, I hope it's more than a vague set of guidelines like it is now. If you've tried to actually create a troop you'd find it's actually harder than creating a monster from scratch, and has weird side effects like how it seems like nothing ever dies, the creatures just scatter when they get below a certain hp value.

I had a village use this to their advantage by always forming into troops, that way nobody in the village ever died in battle.

edit: Don't get me wrong, I would love for troops to be included, but I would also like troop rules to be part of it. Like templates, for example, which are a specific set of instructions for creating a creature.


If they put troops in the first bestiary (which I hope they don't) I hope they put it at the end of the book, together with templates, playable races, and the normal animals. Much like how the MOnster Manuals work, I don't want to skip so many pages, and I never read/use the back of the book.

Another worry for me is that I have to skip another 30+ pages of D&D dragons... Especially the Metallic ones bore me. Rather see the Bestiary 2 and 3 dragons. The bestiary 4 dragons were okayish, the 5 and 6 dragons had only a few ones I actually liked.

Scarab Sages

Raisse wrote:
What do you mean? Poisons always have effects when you fail the save (except for poisons with onset times)?

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

I meant far too many poisons have onset times, as do diseases.

Diseases tend to be the worst offenders, as they have longer onset times than poisons.

Most players have a good idea when they've failed a save, and take early steps to negate the effects, rather than realising they've caught the lurgy when they wake up aching.

Scarab Sages

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I think diseases in general only work in certain situations:

  • A low level wilderness campaign where access to healing is hard to come by. Catching a disease can lead to a harrowing few days of travel trying to reach the nearest town, or braving a dangerous location for the rare McGuffin Flower.
  • A danger for NPCs that drives the plot. A plague has swept through an area, and while the PCs can protect and heal themselves and maybe a small number of others, they can't cure the entire city fast enough to stop the spread.
  • Magically enhanced diseases. Whether that's diseases that are particularly tenacious and resist normal healing methods (with very slow progression to death, this acts as a campaign timer instead of a direct threat), or something like a corruption cult that has magic/monsters that can infect and accelerate the progression of diseases so that they act more like poisons.

    As for poisons... I'm with you on the poisons with onsets being pretty frustrating, but perhaps they're designed more for different styles of games than my usual fare (intrigue and spy work perhaps). My biggest problem with poisons is that they are usually ridiculously expensive for a single try against an enemy, and the DCs are usually low enough that it's trivial, and then even if they fail the effect isn't very bad. Most of Pathfinder's poisons are only really penalizing for PCs. The monster took 2 points of DEX damage? Well, I guess his AC is one lower, oh he's dead now. If a PC takes 2 points of DEX damage, it affects his AC, Reflex, Initiative, Stealth, etc. etc. until he either heals it or rests. There's exceptions of course (looking at you, drow poison), but overall, poison is usually not worth using as a PC.

    I'd love for PF2 to incorporate poison as a viable tactic, via free, powerful poisons as class features for the alchemist, and if they want to keep expensive poisons anyone can use a thing, that's fine. Give the alchemist a poison focused archetype, possibly doing things like removing extracts for powerful poisons, and removing bombs for either poison bombs or something like sneak attack.


  • 2 people marked this as a favorite.

    Adding to list:

    Genies:
    -The Shaitan is overpowered for its CR. It's mastery of terrain & Stoneskin combined make a solid thug into an overpowered beast.
    -Wishes: I know it's iconic for Efreeti to pass out wishes like candy, but it breaks verisimilitude when the Efreeti have non-genie allies who don't exploit this (especially in combat deadly to the Efreeti). Maybe tone it down so it's not daily, or limited wishes, or only the leaders can do so. Or keep the mechanic and make it cost the Efreeit a dire price (even if an unspecified RP mechanic) or maybe they hate to do so because they can't NOT cast the wish they give and don't trust others enough.

    Cloud Giant: That oversized weapon ability should be limited to their iconic morningstars. Otherwise they get a HUGE damage boost just for taking up a different weapon. Or maybe just give them greatclub proficiency instead.

    All Monsters:
    Perception. It's iconic for the wily, outclassed thief to be able to sneak around the lairs of monsters who could squish them with one blow. Maybe it's too hard to balance vs. sneaky PCs at CR taking too much advantage of this weakness, but I'd like it to be doable if possible.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

    well...I think poison and disease are being completely revamped. So we will probably get some change there.


    MMCJawa wrote:
    well...I think poison and disease are being completely revamped. So we will probably get some change there.

    It is pretty much 100% likely to be the progressive affliction system from Starfinder. Which I do like more than the PF1 version of poison and disease.

    Dark Archive

    Something I do worry about: Monsters hat have different statblock in generic bestiary and their original source.

    Like in some cases I guess it might be nerf, but it also might be because they have just one page in Bestiary while in original source they had two pages <_< Raelis is such example I'm wondering about.


    Clay Golems (and other critters with cursed wound abilities:
    It was already difficult adjudicating how caster level interacted with non-spell healing which is being expanded even more. We'll need clear rules on if Fast Healing counts as natural healing and if this applies to spell sources too. Regeneration? Heal skill? Alchemy? Extraordinary h.p. boosts from class abilities?

    This issue overlaps with those of bleed damage. Does Fast Healing or Regeneration seal up the wounds or are they not magical enough to count as "magical healing"? In PF2, will 1 Bleed kill a non-intelligent monster if you shut the door and wait? (Would really like durations on bleed effects.)


    TROLLS
    First, I'd like them to have the ability to squeeze in tight spots, so perhaps the malleable ability or even swarming. It's hard to have the iconic mob of trolls when they're all large. A "Troll Horde" solves this too. :)
    And Regeneration (the spell) mentions not going below Death 3, so does that mean we'll have to track penalties & recovery from this as well as regeneration itself? :(


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    Are troll mobs iconic? The most I've seen in one place in anything was three, I think.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    QuidEst wrote:
    Are troll mobs iconic? The most I've seen in one place in anything was three, I think.

    Depends how far back one goes.

    In 1st Edition, definitely. Module G3 had many scores of trolls in an area which couldn't fit them in PF1 terms. D&D fiction, including Gygax's, had army units of trolls, in some cases let loose from their tight warrens. Trolls were something a PC could face nearly one's whole career, from that first single troll to the room in Q1 where two drag your lead PCs inside where they'd be surrounded by a dozen or so. It wasn't unusual in tough regions to run across a half-dozen to twenty trolls as wandering monsters. Armies were equipped with burning coals simply to burn up troll bits.

    2nd Ed. had gangs of trolls, and kept the lore that they slept in holes. Effectively, there'd be a cavern full of 5x5x5 holes where trolls nested, then erupted from.

    By 3rd, hordes in general became untenable, and even large packs didn't match well with CR requirements. When "tall large" became 10'x10', that made it hard for any pack of giants, even rubbery, hording trolls.

    What I'd most like is for them to be able to function well in cramped spaces (and in 2nd ed. there was at least one dungeon they needed to be rubbery to navigate their own lair full of crevices and narrow tunnels).
    The "Troll Horde" would be secondary re: trolls, though I really long for hordes in general. I miss having armies being worthwhile & balanced opponents for strong PCs.

    And now I'm reminded of how troll pieces continued to fight as the troll got chopped up. That'd be a truly awesome addition to PF2 Trolls!


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

    One of the things that I don't think worked well in Pathfinder was the concept of the big bad guy. Action economy was always so heavily in the player's favour against a single opponent that they either folded without getting to do much or just completely wiped the party.

    I know multiple opponents made much more interesting encounters that did work well but it would be nice if in some cases the new mechanics or monsters could function in such a way as to allow single big bad guy fights.

    So more a worry/query about a style of monster than a specific one.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    gbonehead wrote:

    If they're going to do so, I hope it's more than a vague set of guidelines like it is now. If you've tried to actually create a troop you'd find it's actually harder than creating a monster from scratch, and has weird side effects like how it seems like nothing ever dies, the creatures just scatter when they get below a certain hp value.

    I had a village use this to their advantage by always forming into troops, that way nobody in the village ever died in battle.

    edit: Don't get me wrong, I would love for troops to be included, but I would also like troop rules to be part of it. Like templates, for example, which are a specific set of instructions for creating a creature.

    I tweaked troops for a game I'm running in PF1. The party of four 10th level paladins was going up against an army of gnolls and goblins. One PC had Cleave. Another had abilities that triggered on dropping enemies.

    The main change I made was that instead of doing swarm damage (which made heavy armor useless), I changed it to the troop basically making four attacks, and each attack was treated as being a Vital Strike (or Improved, or Greater, depending on the troop's BAB). That way I could scale the damage they deal to be appropriate for their CR.

    I designed it so three attacks would do 'appropriate damage.' They get four attacks normally, but once reduced below half HP, their morale is shaken and they only get two attacks. So they have a ton of HP, but you do make progress against them.

    Additionally, the troop had a 'Drop Threshold,' and any time an attack did damage equal to or greater than that threshold, it counted as dropping a member of the troop.

    (I'd have to look back at my notes, but I set it up as something like, "A troop fills four Large spaces, and consists of thirty enemies. They have HP equal to about 15 times what one member of the troop would have.")

    Any attack that did damage to an area did normal damage if it affected 1 or 2 5-ft. squares; double if it included 3 or 4 squares; triple if 5 or 6; quadruple if 7 or 8, ... to a max of 8 times damage if you caught the whole troop in one spell. So a 5d6 fireball, doing 17 damage, might hit a troop with 100 hp and kill them all if they failed their save.

    It played pretty well in practice. And it was awesome when the party of four PCs slew a hundred gnolls while charging their way to the high priestess of Lamashtu.


    I'd like a more granular logical breakdown of Undead (this is from my Knowledge House Rules):
    Animated Dead: You know the psychology and culture of liches, which are sapient corporeal undead creatures; the habits and capabilities of mummies, which are sentient corporeal undead creatures; and the capabilities of wiedergänger (e.g., skeletons and zuvembies). Also, you know the rituals and magic surrounding lichdom, mummy-making, and techniques for animating the dead.
    Plagueborne: You know the psychology and culture of wights, which are sapient viral corporeal undead creatures; the habits and capabilities of ghouls, which are sentient viral corporeal undead creatures; and the capabilities of zombies. Also, you know about the epidemiology of undead plagues spread by these creatures.
    The Returned: You know the psychology of phantoms, which are sapient incorporeal undead creatures; the habits and capabilities of ghosts, which are sentient incorporeal undead creatures; and the capabilities of poltergeists. You understand the reasons apparitions return from the dead and how to put them to rest. You also know the habits and capabilities of revenants, which are sentient corporeal undead that are risen from the grave; and wandering corpses.
    Soulsuckers: You know the psychology and culture of wraiths, which are sapient viral incorporeal undead creatures; the habits and capabilities of spectres, which are sentient viral incorporeal undead creatures; and the capabilities of shadows. Also, you understand how these creatures spread and multiply.
    Vampires: You know the psychology and culture of vampires. Vampires are unique in that they have selective spawning capabilities; they can choose to make new vampires and are not compelled one way or another to do so. (Accidents happen, though.) Also, they can often assume both corporeal and incorporeal forms.

    In my game, all Undead echo Evil because they are undead, but sapient undead can technically have any alignment.

    I like genies, too:
    Ifriti: You know the psychology and culture of ifriti. Genies have free will, but their choice of alignment will cause them to change form over the centuries to one of the five main genie races; ifriti are those who maintain a NE (including (L)E and (C)E) alignment for centuries.
    Jann: You know the psychology and culture of jann. Genies have free will, but their choice of alignment will cause them to change form over the centuries to one of the five main genie races; jann are those who maintain a Neutral alignment (including N(LG), N(G), N(CG), N(L), N, N(C), N(LE), N(E), and N(CE)) for centuries. Jann are easily the most numerous of the genies, though for a reason that is not understood, they tend to be the least powerful, regardless of age and experience.
    Jinn: You know the psychology and culture of jinn. Genies have free will, but their choice of alignment will cause them to change form over the centuries to one of the five main genie races; jinn are those who maintain a NG (including (L)G and (C)G) alignment for centuries.
    Marid: You know the psychology and culture of marid. Genies have free will, but their choice of alignment will cause them to change form over the centuries to one of the five main genie races; marid are those who maintain a Chaotic alignment for centuries. CG marid resemble azata, while CE and CN marid resemble demons.
    Shaitan: You know the psychology and culture of shaitan. Genies have free will, but their choice of alignment will cause them to change form over the centuries to one of the five main genie races; shaitan are those who maintain a Lawful alignment for centuries. Shaitan tradition teaches respect for the Dominion, and it is said the first genie was a Shaitan who was created, along with a human and an angel, as the first three sapient beings in all of Creation. The first Shaitan still supposedly resides in Djinnestan, with no feeling of malice for being kept from entering Heaven, which genies cannot do upon their deaths. LE shaitan resemble devils, while LG and LN shaitan resemble angels.

    Silver Crusade

    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Castilliano wrote:

    I miss having armies being worthwhile & balanced opponents for strong PCs.

    Troop subtype is your friend. I hope it's right there in the first PF2 bestiary.


    3 people marked this as a favorite.

    If Wendigos are the mythological embodiment of fear of running out of food in a killer winter, going slowly mad, and resorting to cannibalism, then they can't be CR 17.

    An adventure where you lose your way in the snow, struggle to deal with the elements, and are worn down by the blizzard, the nightmares, and the maddening howls of the stalking beast out in the storm sounds great, and it can be.

    It doesn't work with 13th level PCs who can endure elements, create food magically, and teleport to their own personal heavenly demiplane whenever they fancy a rest. The time to run that game is when the PCs are 3rd level with a CR 7 monster.


    I hope they keep vampires as a template, and NOT as a generic monster. Ditto with all other templated creatures!


    Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    I hope Hags become Fey with a Hag Subtype

    I hope Elementals are separated from Outsider

    I hope creatures from the Shadow Plane get a Creature Type (Why are Nightwaves, Nightwalkers, etc. Undead when they could be umbral creatures of living shadow)


    Will O' Wisps
    I expect their magic immunities will remain, but I worry that their super-duper ACs might be hard to implement in this system.
    They'd have to be hittable when fighting singly, but barely so, and then still hard to hit when fighting in groups (CR-3 or lower).

    Proposal
    Give Will O' Wisps a Reaction ability that allows them to dodge one attack per round or boost their AC once. So when one is a major threat, all the group focusing on it will overcome that and when the Will O' Wisps surround the party at later levels, the ability keeps their iconic hard-to-hit quality relevant.
    (Also, they were easily shut down with a Communal Resist Energy, even off a scroll, so that might need addressing.)

    Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion / Worries & Queries about Specific Monsters All Messageboards
    Recent threads in Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion