Will Flurry work the way one of my players think it will?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I have a player who is doing a shifter 5/brawler 2. They grabbed Feral Combat Training and Multiattack and I already ruled that Feral Combat Training will let their natural attacks work with Brawler's Flurry. However I'm not certain it will let them make as many attacks as they think it does.

Here's what they've got on their sheet:

1.) First attack (-2 from brawler's flurry)
2.) Second Attack (-2 from brawler's flurry, again)
3.) Third Attack (-7 from flurry and BAB)
4.) Natural Attack 1 (-2 from multiattack)
5.) Natural Attack 2 (-2 from multiattack)

Do they have the right of it? If not what is the most attacks they can do in a full-round action?


Where is your player growing the 2 extra arms from?

Flurry
Right hand (BAB primary)
Left hand (2-wpn primary)
Right Hand (BAB secondary)
Left Hand (2 wpn secondary) (Brawler 8th lvl)

Non-flurry
Right hand (BAB primary)
Right Hand (BAB secondary)

the multiattack feat reduces the use of a natural attack from -5 to -2, so the Right hand secondary would only take a -2 from BAB not the -5 as listed in your example so only -4. There is nothing in there that gives them extra natural attacks. Feral training only changes the way their natural attacks interact with the flurry it doesn't add to them. So rather than using their basic fists in the flurry they can now use their natural attacks in the flurry, presumably the natural attack to hit and dmg being higher than just their fists.

Look up the demon-seraptis for example of the listing in a monster listing, 1 wpn + 3 natural or 4 natural attacks. This is similar as Imp Unarmed strike turns your fists into wpns, without the feral combat training, they would have to choose flurry with human fists or 2 strikes with shifter claws at BAB & BAB-2.


The get the attacks from flurry, as either unarmed attacks or with weapons.

FCT lets you use natural attacks when you flurry if you are a monk, (could be argued to work for brawler but they're two separate classes by base). If this works for them it lets them make attacks with their claws as if using natural attacks (they'd get the flurry attacks and natural attacks with the natural attacks acting as secondary ones), not that they can't be holding anything in their hands if they want to use their claws for attacks though.

By RAW though a brawler can make natural attacks with his flurry (just can't use them for it), since only core monk specifically calls out that you can't use natural attacks when you flurry.

Multi attack would lower their penalty for their natural attacks.

Shadow Lodge

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The wording's a bit vague. There's an FAQ clarification:

FAQ wrote:

Feral Combat Training: What does “with” in the Special line for this feat mean for monks making a flurry of blows?

Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows (Core Rulebook 57). Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.

The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.


Yeah, flurry and brawler's flurry lock you out of getting any extra attacks by any means outside of that flurry attack routine.


Willu is wrong, has nothing to do with arms. Brawlers are odd and can TWF single handed.

If your going to rule FCT works for brawlers, apply the Monk FAQ equally to them as well. Basically, it changes "can flurry with monk and close weapons" to "can flurry with monk weapons, close weapons, and claws". It does not allow them to make extra attacks. Let them retrain multiattack, it does nothing while Flurrying. Brawler / Shifter is not a good combination really.

Brawler's Flurry wrote:
A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
Yeah, flurry and brawler's flurry lock you out of getting any extra attacks by any means outside of that flurry attack routine.

...and ki points, and haste...


Litany of issues here.

FIRST is an apparent misunderstanding of how Unarmed Strikes works (I presume this brawler is using his unarmed strikes). Unarmed Strikes are not expressly made with fists, but with ANY part of the body. Fists, yes, but also elbows knees, feet the forehead, cock slapping, doesn't matter. An unarmed strike is not limited to fists.

SECOND is a misunderstand of the Monk/Brawler Flurry of Blows. ANY single weapon can be used for the full benefits of a flurry, even if that weapon is a two-handed weapon, as long as it is a monk weapon. Period. You can make a staff out of a dragon's baculum, and you can flurry with it.

THIRD is an apparent misunderstand of Feral Combat Training. I say this because, even though it DOES actually expressly state that it only has an effect on monks, since the brawler is a mon/fighter hybrid, it's perfectly within the allowance of the rules to allow this variant monk type to use his claws with Flurry if he's taken the feat.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
Brawlers are odd and can TWF single handed.

Actually, the Brawler, just like the monk, can make multiple attacks without using ANY hands. Brawlers and Monks can use Fists, elbows, knees and feet - those last two don't even require arms, let alone hands.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Weirdo wrote:

The wording's a bit vague. There's an FAQ clarification:

FAQ wrote:

Feral Combat Training: What does “with” in the Special line for this feat mean for monks making a flurry of blows?

Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows (Core Rulebook 57). Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.

The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.

Thank you for pointing me to the FAQ; I'm just glad the player in question took the news okay given how excited they were about the flurry + claws.

toastedamphibian wrote:
Brawler / Shifter is not a good combination really.

Oh, they know. They also don't mind.


Nintendogeek, if he wants a raw number-of-attack builds, natural attacks are always the way to go.


toastedamphibian wrote:

Willu is wrong, has nothing to do with arms. Brawlers are odd and can TWF single handed.

If your going to rule FCT works for brawlers, apply the Monk FAQ equally to them as well. Basically, it changes "can flurry with monk and close weapons" to "can flurry with monk weapons, close weapons, and claws". It does not allow them to make extra attacks. Let them retrain multiattack, it does nothing while Flurrying. Brawler / Shifter is not a good combination really.

Brawler's Flurry wrote:
A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks.

Oh derp, I guess it's was only unchained monk that they forgot the natural attack language on.


willuwontu wrote:
Oh derp, I guess it's was only unchained monk that they forgot the natural attack language on.
Quote:
He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so.

This is the part in unchained that prevents natural attacks from being added to the flurry.


Except that refers to using multiple weapons for the flurry of blows.

Which the natural attacks aren't being used by, they're being used as rider effect of a full attack action (which flurry is).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The bolded portion is not limited to just weapon attacks - it simply flat-out says you don't get any more attacks, period. Source doesn't matter.


YogoZuno wrote:
Quote:
Brawlers are odd and can TWF single handed.
Actually, the Brawler, just like the monk, can make multiple attacks without using ANY hands. Brawlers and Monks can use Fists, elbows, knees and feet - those last two don't even require arms, let alone hands.

Not talking about physical hands but... you know what, nevermind.


YogoZuno wrote:
The bolded portion is not limited to just weapon attacks - it simply flat-out says you don't get any more attacks, period. Source doesn't matter.

incorrect. If you ignore "but" and everything before that, as well as "for" and everything following it, it would mean what you claim it to. But then if I ignore "not" and everything after "attack" in the quote up there, it's meaning magically changes as well.


Nintendogeek01 wrote:

toastedamphibian wrote:
Brawler / Shifter is not a good combination really.
Oh, they know. They also don't mind.

Not sure exactly what type of character they had in mind, but maybe consider suggesting they take a look at the Menhir Guardian? Full shifter claw progression, with the ability to flurry with them straight out the box.

Possibly a better answer would be to simply take TWF as a feat (in place of FCT) and not use flurry at all. With just the feat, the progression in your first post is correct. He could make 3 kicks and 2 claws.

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