Can a class exist in PF?


Prerelease Discussion


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If a class is the source of consistent violation of community guidelines even in a reasoned and polite discussion, is it valid to continue to have the class in the game material?

Several recent threads about a particular class (removed here to keep the tone neutral) went to a very dark place and it was uncertain if it was a deliberate effort to submarine any discussion about said class or legitimate questioning (albeit rather disturbing).

If we cannot discuss the topic of a class when it is something very important to the very fundamentals of the class (see PF1 Shifter), should we have the class in the game if it is going to be that divisive in discussion?

Should the class perhaps be saved for a future supplement instead, when cooler heads have prevailed?

I know there's an argument for tradition on one side of this, but there's also the Community Guidelines and using them to leverage the discussion in favor of tradition (or the removal of said traditions) is not a conducive way to have a positive discussion.

EDIT: Please note! Do NOT mention the class in question in subsequent discussion, as it is a divisive topic and detrimental to the fundamental and basic questions above.

Thank you very much for your time in advance!


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Do we really need a second thread complaining that a discussion over the morality of slavery was shut down? If you have a problem with the moderation of the forums, it should be discussed with the moderation team, not obliquely alluded to in order to gain sympathy from the oblivious forum goers. I don't believe this topic is relevant to playtesting.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This isn't a discussion about morality items.

This is a discussion about a class being so divisive that folks are *dragging* morality items into the discussion to have it shut down.

This is not a plea for sympathy, but an effort to build community to avoid this sort of excrement.

The topic is VERY relevant to playtesting.

If a class destroys the community with toxic posting and cross-fighting, we need to have it removed, imo, for the good of the community.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I agree, Bards are ... ugh.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
I agree, Bards are ... ugh.

Gorbie... Gorbie... C'mon man... or would that be bagman?

I said at the start of the thread to *not* bring the class into the discussion.

Y' killin' me, Smalls.

Scarab Sages

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if morality is fundamental to a class then it SHOULD be discussed. No, that's not an easy topic. No, everyone won't be nice or neutral about it. It may get nasty, and if it breaks community standards then the mods have to do the horrible task of "their jobs."

the only questions about whether a class can exist in the game are as follows: Does it belong in the setting? are the mechanics unique enough to be more than an archetype? does Paizo have the resources to do a good job of it (and look at playtest data) before it's published?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But if we can't discuss the class during the playtest then it cannot be playtested properly.

Silver Crusade

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


But if we can't discuss the class during the playtest then it cannot be playtested properly.

This is disingenuous and you know it >_>


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Just because a bunch of people on the internet behave like entitled children doesn't mean that individual gaming groups can't handle tricky stuff like mature, reasonable adults. It's entirely likely there is some correlation between "immature entitled behavior on the internet" and "running into problems with alignment in a game of Pathfinder" but I would need more data (I have literally never even seen an alignment or Paladin problem in practice).

Plus, once the playtest actually starts the talk about Paladins will be about how weak or strong their feats are, not about how "my Paladin keeps falling in the playtest". It is extremely unlikely a Paladin will fall in a playtest game I'm in, it will be extremely likely that a Paladin will have too much or too little offense or defense.


Classes don't exist. They're a metagame construct holding a prepackaged set of abilities [often with many, many moving parts in Pathfinder] that gives a character their capabilities.

Now, Characters exist, and organizations exist, and sometimes organizations coincidentally align with classes. But classes themselves do not exist.


I think you need to make at least one more thread on this.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Eesh.

Folks, why do we have to keep bringing specifics back into this?

*sigh*

Lantern Lodge Customer Service Manager

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Please, do not make this into a binary choice. Y'all are welcome to discuss paladins, y'all are welcome to discuss morality. But when the discussion turns to "how can I make slavery okay," that is unwelcome here. Paladin threads are just like any other on our site, when stuff becomes too time consuming to moderate and the discussion goes around in circles with people fighting and bickering about tangents instead of having respectful debate or conversations, it ends up locked. Paladin and/or alignment threads do seem to have a higher tendency of getting locked, (unsure if this is confirmation bias or not on my part) because paladins and alignment bring in a lot of philosophical questions about right or wrong or things in between. Values and beliefs vary quite a bit between people and paizo.com has a lot of variation and diverse opinions. I think its also important to remember that some of these questions of morality are really nuanced and are ones still being debated and theorized by professional philosophers!

Additionally, there may be some subjects that work well for discussing with friends over a gaming table, but not on publicly viewable messageboards.

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