Pathfinder Playtest parts 3 & 4 with the Glass Cannon Podcast is released!


Prerelease Discussion

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https://glasscannonpodcast.com/the-pathfinder-playtest-parts-3-and-4/

Post below about your observations.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Spoilers ahead:

Falling damage is 1 foot = 1 damage, and someone critically fumbled their reflex save, so they took double damage.

Starfinder non-lethal damage rules, only the last hit matters, no more separate tracking.

EDIT 1:

Thievery is a skill, a fumble caused the characters lock pick kit to be "dented",which gives an unspecified penalty

Occultism is a skill, having to due with "strange runes or symbols"
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EDIT 2:

Crits are no longer confirmed, there is a weapon property called deadly. It was on a short bow, and it mean that a crit did double damage +1d10. Rapier also has deadly.

Cantrip called "Forbidding Ward" that selects 1 enemy and 1 ally, giving the ally +1 to AC and "improved your saving throws against the target enemies attack spells and effects"
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EDIT 3:

Knowledge(Religion) is still its own skill (not sure if that had been confirmed yet).

It appears that knowledge skills are now called lore instead.

Lore skills can be done untrained, it is up to the GM to decide if someone with out training would know a specific piece of lore/knowledge with no training.

Lore(underworld) which applies to "criminal elements, like thieves guilds, criminal syndicate or network"
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EDIT 4:

The party was given a crystal vial labeled "Health" that healed 1d8 (no additional modifiers). That is similar to the healing serums of Starfinder

There is a concept called "Resonance Score", it is Level + CHA. Whenever you activate magic items or drink potions, you use up your resonance. Once it at 0, you have to start making checks to use items/drink potions. If you fail the check causing the use of the magic item to fail, and if you fumble it, you are cut of from magic items for the rest of the day. Potions no longer do anything.

When you start the day, you do whats called "Investing", where you put on your magic items, and invest your resonance so they are good all day. Even if you are cut off, you keep your bonuses (I believe)

If you find a magic items that have active effects, each use of that appears to use a resonance as well (example given was a sword that can shoot a ray of fire, each ray would cost one point of resonance).

The check after you resonance is done appears to be a "flat check", which means its a d20 with no modifiers. Starts at 10, goes up by one each time your "overspend". Again if you fumble you are cut off, which means you would need to roll a 1 on your second one to be cut off for the day.

Personal Notes: This is a big change from PF1, and it does curb the wand of CLW meta pretty heavily. It seems to borrow ides from ABP. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I would recommend everyone listen to this part to make sure I did not miss anything(Starts at 58:45).
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EDIT 5:

Condition called sick [x]. "Take -[x] on all checks and DC's, cannot willing ingest potions or anything else. Can spend action to attempt to recover to reduce by 1, or 2 on a critical success". Party could not try to recover until they exited the effect.

Added some spacers to make reading easier

That is it for part 1. I have to run SFS tonight, so I will not be able to listen to part 2 until tomorrow at the earliest. Any one can go ahead and step up and go through part 2 if you wish.

Dark Archive

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Aww man, but Starfinder non-lethal damage rules makes it hard to capture enemies alive unless everyone in party agrees to attempt! Especially if NPCs die instantly on k.o. unless gm throws party a bone


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I am really wondering how many skills PF2 is going to have. They seem more specific than in PF1.


Partizanski wrote:

Spoilers ahead:

Falling damage is 1 foot = 1 damage, and someone critically fumbled their reflex save, so they took double damage.

Starfinder non-lethal damage rules, only the last hit matters, no more separate tracking.

EDIT 1:

Thievery is a skill, a fumble caused the characters lock pick kit to be "dented",which gives an unspecified penalty

Occultism is a skill, having to due with "strange runes or symbols"

EDIT 2:

Crits are no longer confirmed, there is a weapon property called deadly. It was on a short bow, and it mean that a crit did double damage +1d10. Rapier also has deadly.

Cantrip called "Forbidding Ward" that selects 1 enemy and 1 ally, giving the ally +1 to AC and "improved your saving throws against the target enemies attack spells and effects"

Are we 100% about the crits? I know beating AC by 10+ auto confirms, but what happens when you threaten a critical and don't beat AC by 10+?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Scias Starset wrote:
I am really wondering how many skills PF2 is going to have. They seem more specific than in PF1.

Have you actually seen any evidence of a finer level of detail in the skill list? "Society" was one of the Consolidated Skills in Pathfinder Unchained, and "Occultism" is probably a combination of Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, and Knowledge (Arcana) as the Consolidated Skill "Spellcraft".


By "threaten", do you mean roll a nat 20? I believe thats a crit now regardless if it makes the 10 over target.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
SorrySleeping wrote:


Are we 100% about the crits? I know beating AC by 10+ auto confirms, but what happens when you threaten a critical and don't beat AC by 10+?

It was not mentioned, just that a natural 20 did not need to be confirmed, it just rolled critical damage.


SorrySleeping wrote:


Are we 100% about the crits? I know beating AC by 10+ auto confirms, but what happens when you threaten a critical and don't beat AC by 10+?

It seems like crits don't require 20s or confirmation anymore, only beating the AC by 10+


I'm liking that we seem to be getting class feats at 1st and every even level. Lets you get set up properly, even if you have to take something boring-but-practical like using two bombs a round.

Falling damage is changed: one point per foot.


Partizanski wrote:

Spoilers ahead:

Falling damage is 1 foot = 1 damage, and someone critically fumbled their reflex save, so they took double damage.

Starfinder non-lethal damage rules, only the last hit matters, no more separate tracking.

EDIT 1:

Thievery is a skill, a fumble caused the characters lock pick kit to be "dented",which gives an unspecified penalty

Occultism is a skill, having to due with "strange runes or symbols"

EDIT 2:

Crits are no longer confirmed, there is a weapon property called deadly. It was on a short bow, and it mean that a crit did double damage +1d10. Rapier also has deadly.

Cantrip called "Forbidding Ward" that selects 1 enemy and 1 ally, giving the ally +1 to AC and "improved your saving throws against the target enemies attack spells and effects"

EDIT 3:

Knowledge(Religion) is still its own skill (not sure if that had been confirmed yet).

It appears that knowledge skills are now called lore instead.

Lore skills can be done untrained, it is up to the GM to decide if someone with out training would know a specific piece of lore/knowledge with no training.

Lore(underworld) which applies to "criminal elements, like thieves guilds, criminal syndicate or network"

Everything about this is bad news except for what I've bolded. That one is just common sense, so I guess it's good they've pointed it out that you can rule that way.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like Starfinder's take on nonlethal much better. It takes commitment to take someone in alive. The monk landing a few punches early doesn't give the barbarian license to go full HAM with the greatsword.


Scias Starset wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:


Are we 100% about the crits? I know beating AC by 10+ auto confirms, but what happens when you threaten a critical and don't beat AC by 10+?
It seems like crits don't require 20s or confirmation anymore, only beating the AC by 10+

The most consistent theme in reporting is that you score a crit for either (a) hitting 10+AC or (b) rolling a 20, even if that isn't 10+AC (it's unclear if a 20 that wouldn't ordinarily hit is a crit). In neither case do you have to confirm.


Partizanski wrote:


EDIT 4:
...

I'm not sure how I feel about this "Resonance" system yet. I suppose I'll have to see how it plays, but it's probably the most radical change we've seen so far.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
I like Starfinder's take on nonlethal much better. It takes commitment to take someone in alive. The monk landing a few punches early doesn't give the barbarian license to go full HAM with the greatsword.

Now the monk just leaves the party instead...


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Thebazilly wrote:
Partizanski wrote:


EDIT 4:
...
I'm not sure how I feel about this "Resonance" system yet. I suppose I'll have to see how it plays, but it's probably the most radical change we've seen so far.

I'm okay with it in principle, but I'm really not feeling the fact that potions use up resonance.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A rather poor idea with NonLethal there.

It needs to have some charting beyond 'GM fiat' or 'Nobody does Lethal'.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

The magic item rules...sound a bit too complicated for my taste


Acrobatics to move through an enemy space is vs. their reflex DC. Enemies may or may not have reactions to respond to a failure. With three actions to spend, it's a lot likelier that you can pull it off during a turn. Trained-only.

Bull-rush is athletics.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Resonance sounds interesting. I like the push away from spamming wands of cure light wounds.

How it works at higher level play will be something I will want to playtest.

Paizo Employee Designer

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QuidEst wrote:

Acrobatics to move through an enemy space is vs. their reflex DC. Enemies may or may not have reactions to respond to a failure. With three actions to spend, it's a lot likelier that you can pull it off during a turn. Trained-only.

That Acrobatics use isn't trained only.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Without any knowledge of prices (which theoretically might have a huge impact), I'm fine withe the change to magic items - except when you include potions. Because if a potion doesn't work, it's wasted. If you try to eke an extra charge out of a wand and nothing happens, all you've wasted is effort. But you have to drink a potion, which means that it's gone with no effect. You can't try again later, or resign yourself to waiting until tomorrow. It's gone. You've wasted the resources you spent on the potion in the first place AND wasted the opportunity cost of using it, both at the same time. (EDIT: which is extra punishing if you were drinking said potion out of desperation)

So, unless potions are cheaper by an enormous margin compared to their current prices, I think that difference between potions and other magic items warrants special consideration for an exception. (EDIT: even if that means that potions remain expensive because of it)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I’m a fan of most of these changes, I think.

I share the feeling that it’s odd that potions no longer do anything for you past a certain point, but so I can see why it’s difficult to get around a limit like this if you want to get away from the “heal up to full after every battle” model. After all, potions of CLW aren’t *that* much more expensive than wands of CLW, and are of negligible cost once you hit higher levels...


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We finally find out what a +1 weapon does.
+1 to attack, and you get the weapon damage a second time.

(So magic daggers are really weak compared to magic swords.)


Xenocrat wrote:
Scias Starset wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:


Are we 100% about the crits? I know beating AC by 10+ auto confirms, but what happens when you threaten a critical and don't beat AC by 10+?
It seems like crits don't require 20s or confirmation anymore, only beating the AC by 10+
The most consistent theme in reporting is that you score a crit for either (a) hitting 10+AC or (b) rolling a 20, even if that isn't 10+AC (it's unclear if a 20 that wouldn't ordinarily hit is a crit). In neither case do you have to confirm.

That makes me worry about what they are doing with weapons. Having classes being able to crit fish more than others seems like a good idea from an understand, since the fighter should know the weak points of his enemies, but it seems like a massive balance issue. At least crit fishing won't be the go-to for the magus.

Does anyone know what classes we are getting? I thought I saw 12 classes, but Core 1E only has 11 classes.


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SorrySleeping wrote:

Does anyone know what classes we are getting? I thought I saw 12 classes, but Core 1E only has 11 classes.

All the PF1 classes plus Alchemist.


Great changes. I like the magic item one, should give plenty of item usage without devolving into the stupidity of wand usage in PF1. Having my party I DM spam Mage Armor pre battle and CLW after battle is tedious and contrived.


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Some of these changes are troubling. I'm not a great fan of the Starfinder systems in general anyway, and it seems we are leaning towards them in many areas. I'm still in the wait and see camp, but at this point I may be in the "steal interesting things but continue with PF1" group.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As both an occultist lover and someone who seeks to teach an easier system to her boyfriend and his friends that still has the customization I want, the magic system has me concerned and I want clarification and ideally confirmation that they aren't scrapping occultist for this form of magic item usuage.

The terminology used is almost an exact rip of the terminology used for occultist and it's class resource, all you need to do is shove focus somewhere in there. Is this intentional, because investment involves picking and choosing where your "focus" or resonance points go, or is it more along the lines of attunement, where you can only used attuned items with points. Either way doesn't really sound too great for me, as even my more experienced friends have had some trouble with focus management when they've tried occultist.


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There's a nimble dodge reaction to boost AC. I think that was the Rogue? It was nice that it wasn't wasted even against a really good enemy roll- it prevented a crit.


I dislike the "pinball" effect of role-playing game revisions.


Touch attacks sound brutal, given how much easier crits are with them.

Shadow seems pretty broken still.


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Bloodrealm wrote:
Partizanski wrote:

Spoilers ahead:

Falling damage is 1 foot = 1 damage, and someone critically fumbled their reflex save, so they took double damage.

Starfinder non-lethal damage rules, only the last hit matters, no more separate tracking.

EDIT 1:

Thievery is a skill, a fumble caused the characters lock pick kit to be "dented",which gives an unspecified penalty

Occultism is a skill, having to due with "strange runes or symbols"

EDIT 2:

Crits are no longer confirmed, there is a weapon property called deadly. It was on a short bow, and it mean that a crit did double damage +1d10. Rapier also has deadly.

Cantrip called "Forbidding Ward" that selects 1 enemy and 1 ally, giving the ally +1 to AC and "improved your saving throws against the target enemies attack spells and effects"

EDIT 3:

Knowledge(Religion) is still its own skill (not sure if that had been confirmed yet).

It appears that knowledge skills are now called lore instead.

Lore skills can be done untrained, it is up to the GM to decide if someone with out training would know a specific piece of lore/knowledge with no training.

Lore(underworld) which applies to "criminal elements, like thieves guilds, criminal syndicate or network"

Everything about this is bad news except for what I've bolded. That one is just common sense, so I guess it's good they've pointed it out that you can rule that way.

The part you've bolded is the worst possible solution,

It will lead to huge table variance with no means of resolving what can and cannot be learned untrained.


SorrySleeping wrote:
At least crit fishing won't be the go-to for the magus.

The class that can resolve all attacks as touch attacks?


If you're charismatic enough, you can pull of ten magic rings.

Fewer bonus types. (More like "spell bonus" or "item bonus".)

Paizo Employee Designer

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QuidEst wrote:

Touch attacks sound brutal, given how much easier crits are with them.

Shadow seems pretty broken still.

That was one of the really interesting meetings: "We have made shadow much less broken than before, but it's still pretty brutal. Is that an important fundamental feature of the monster shadow and the stories people tell with it?" That's going to be something you guys will help us decide in the playtest! Might be a fun thread topic too.


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QuidEst wrote:
Touch attacks sound brutal, given how much easier crits are with them.

I sort of expect that you can't crit with touch attacks. Which makes a kind of sense, since if the reason my plate armor doesn't protect me from your shocking grasp is that metal conducts electricity, it's not like there's a vital area you can poke me in to make your grasp more shocking. If the ray affects me just by touching me, why does it matter where it touched me?

Do we know for a fact that you can crit with touch attacks?


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In light of new information... Holy crap this game is awful.
The Resonance thing is basically taking the Occultist's Mental Focus mechanic (which is fine for one class out of more than 40 to have) and forcing it on every single character.


Interesting though that the Strength drain was an action on it's own. I wonder if that applies to other drains like level drain or just the Shadow


All of these seem good except for the lack of official guidance on what you can know untrained (will lead to wildly varying rulings from table to table), and the Starfinder nonlethal variant. I'm good with Resonance overall buuuut I'm a little iffy about potions also spending it.

Maybe the number of potions you can have per day should be equal to half your Constitution score instead of spending Resonance? That way it's not spending this uber important resource you need for all your /other/ magic. Perhaps further extend this (maybe as an optional rule) that if you try to drink potions beyond your Constitution limit that you start rolling on something like ye olde Potion Miscibility mishap tables?


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Maybe the number of potions you can have per day should be equal to half your Constitution score instead of spending Resonance? That way it's not spending this uber important resource you need for all your /other/ magic. Perhaps further extend this (maybe as an optional rule) that if you try to drink potions beyond your Constitution limit that you start rolling on something like ye olde Potion Miscibility mishap tables?

I think separate pool is a fine alternative to a complete exemption from the normal rules from potions, and basing it on CON feels rather natural. If your CHA affects your ability to get magic items to do their thing for you, then your CON affects your ability to handle the amount of stuff the existing magic which a potion can impart. It also acknowledges the dichotomy between the way in which potions (already cast magic) and wands/scrolls (stored potential to cast magic) work.

Although, after thinking about things a bit more, I guess the current system doesn't feel as much like a 'gotcha' when it comes to potions as it felt from my first reaction to it. When you go to drink that extra potion, you know you're at risk of wasting it. You get to decide whether you're desperate enough to roll those dice. So, while I feel like I've talked myself out of thinking that there's need for an exemption or separate pool in an absolute sense, I think I (and some of my players who suffer from "frozen pea syndrome") would be rather happier if it was there. Especially at low levels.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Leedwashere wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Maybe the number of potions you can have per day should be equal to half your Constitution score instead of spending Resonance? That way it's not spending this uber important resource you need for all your /other/ magic. Perhaps further extend this (maybe as an optional rule) that if you try to drink potions beyond your Constitution limit that you start rolling on something like ye olde Potion Miscibility mishap tables?

I think separate pool is a fine alternative to a complete exemption from the normal rules from potions, and basing it on CON feels rather natural. If your CHA affects your ability to get magic items to do their thing for you, then your CON affects your ability to handle the amount of stuff the existing magic which a potion can impart. It also acknowledges the dichotomy between the way in which potions (already cast magic) and wands/scrolls (stored potential to cast magic) work.

Although, after thinking about things a bit more, I guess the current system doesn't feel as much like a 'gotcha' when it comes to potions as it felt from my first reaction to it. When you go to drink that extra potion, you know you're at risk of wasting it. You get to decide whether you're desperate enough to roll those dice. So, while I feel like I've talked myself out of thinking that there's need for an exemption or separate pool in an absolute sense, I think I (and some of my players who suffer from "frozen pea syndrome") would be rather happier if it was there. Especially at low levels.

I'm with you in that I could go either way with this. On one hand, I kind of like the idea of taking a risk/pushing your luck with potions. On the other, I also worry about wasting items, especially at low levels. But it could make those low levels more challenging and rewarding to survive.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I also like making knowledge skills available to roll on untrained. If a player can justify why their character would have that knowledge, I have no issue with them attempting it. Plus there's always the chance they have some random trivia stored away from watching Golarian Jeopardy while they were home sick from school. I think every skill should have some wiggle room for PCs, especially if they're willing to risk the new skill fumble rules.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:
At least crit fishing won't be the go-to for the magus.
The class that can resolve all attacks as touch attacks?

You mean the class that turns touch attacks into normal attacks? His shocking grasp may be able to crit more often by itself, but it no longer gets weapon damage or Str (or dex) to damage.


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That Resonnance thing seems bad to roleplay. « No my boots of fly don’t work since yesterday, I had a bad night. On the other hand my rusty ring can launch fireballs since this morning. »

All the rest is good for me.


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Resonance feels like more than a little forced way to make CHA relevant. I hope resonance isn't so powerful or limiting a mechanic that suddenly only the suave and charming adventure.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It’s a lot easier to boost Charisma as you level in PF2, and the difference decreases as levels increase. I don’t think Charisma will become dominant, just more useful for more characters.


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It gives something so Cha isn’t always an automatic dump stat for everyone. This also gets rid of a lot of the christmas tree aspect of this. You can wear as many amulets/rings as you want, it’s just up to you to decide what to use them for. I don’t super love having another resource to track, but this is infinitely preferable to wand spammage.


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I hope resonance is one of those 'extreme rule versions' were they have a more conservative backup plan, because I cn already tell, this will not be popular during playtest.
'Lore' being an untrained skill however, makes sense and we houserule that on our tables since, I don't know, knowledges were a thing. You lived your whole life in that village? Good, roll Knowlede (local). What? You haven't invested a rank in it? Sorry, you have no idea where the grocery store is.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Except for a particular time when my playtesters explicitly tried to see if they could get away with saving money on CLW wand spam despite being high level adventurers who could afford a better wand, and a few extreme stress test situations where I told them "This is the only fight today. Nova your heart out," my playtest group never really hit hard against the resonance caps, even the ones with lower Charisma.

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