Change to Valeros


Prerelease Discussion


One thing I couldn't help but notice is that on the cover, he has a shield. Previously, he'd been a TWF. Now it seems that he has a shield, which leads me to believe that will be an all out change in his style of play, which I find very interesting. What else do you think they'll change with the iconics?


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I seem to recall a mention of Harsk the Dwarf Ranger having his weaponry changed too.


I believe it already got confirmed that Harsk is now a TWF based ranger (to the rejoicing of all). I think Paizo was rebuilding a few of them to fit less...shall we say esoteric niches and act as more common builds for newbies.


Yoon will be an adult now (she'll be 18). Assuming she's still around, that is, since Damiel has been replaced with a goblin (can't recall his name).

Shadow Lodge

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Hope we get another Kid iconic then. Young heroes are a staple of fantasy.


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It's to show off the exciting new shield mechanics, no doubt.

Shadow Lodge

Maybe fighters have special things they can do with their actions regarding shields.

Or, maybe, he is a TWF shield basher.

Grand Lodge

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Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:
Yoon will be an adult now (she'll be 18). Assuming she's still around, that is, since Damiel has been replaced with a goblin (can't recall his name).

Replaced, or did Damiel mix up an extract and bomb, and therefore got reincarnated into a goblin!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
I believe it already got confirmed that Harsk is now a TWF based ranger (to the rejoicing of all). I think Paizo was rebuilding a few of them to fit less...shall we say esoteric niches and act as more common builds for newbies.

Harsk and Valeros definitely had a lot of problems in that regard. To an extent, I am disappointed since this seems to indicate that Paizo has given up on the longsword/shortsword fighting style. It never got any noteworthy support in PF1E and over the course of the system's lifespan went from being bad to completely unviable. Valeros changing his fighting style will make for a more usable pregen for newbies - which is definitely a positive - but it looks to me like Paizo isn't even going to try to make longsword/shortsword work.

Still an improvement; if we are going to get a dysfunctional fighting style, at least the iconics won't be using it.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Dasrak wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
I believe it already got confirmed that Harsk is now a TWF based ranger (to the rejoicing of all). I think Paizo was rebuilding a few of them to fit less...shall we say esoteric niches and act as more common builds for newbies.

Harsk and Valeros definitely had a lot of problems in that regard. To an extent, I am disappointed since this seems to indicate that Paizo has given up on the longsword/shortsword fighting style. It never got any noteworthy support in PF1E and over the course of the system's lifespan went from being bad to completely unviable. Valeros changing his fighting style will make for a more usable pregen for newbies - which is definitely a positive - but it looks to me like Paizo isn't even going to try to make longsword/shortsword work.

Still an improvement; if we are going to get a dysfunctional fighting style, at least the iconics won't be using it.

Longsword/shortsword is actually pretty solid now, or at least, I've seen that build putting out good damage. The switch to have Valeros also carry a shield, as I've heard it explained, is more to allow the iconic character to have access to the iconic sword and board style. But he still has his short sword, and there's no reason you couldn't build for two-weapon fighting with longsword and shield and then switch in a short sword for better damage and lower defense on occasion.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
I believe it already got confirmed that Harsk is now a TWF based ranger (to the rejoicing of all). I think Paizo was rebuilding a few of them to fit less...shall we say esoteric niches and act as more common builds for newbies.

Harsk and Valeros definitely had a lot of problems in that regard. To an extent, I am disappointed since this seems to indicate that Paizo has given up on the longsword/shortsword fighting style. It never got any noteworthy support in PF1E and over the course of the system's lifespan went from being bad to completely unviable. Valeros changing his fighting style will make for a more usable pregen for newbies - which is definitely a positive - but it looks to me like Paizo isn't even going to try to make longsword/shortsword work.

Still an improvement; if we are going to get a dysfunctional fighting style, at least the iconics won't be using it.

Longsword/shortsword is actually pretty solid now, or at least, I've seen that build putting out good damage. The switch to have Valeros also carry a shield, as I've heard it explained, is more to allow the iconic character to have access to the iconic sword and board style. But he still has his short sword, and there's no reason you couldn't build for two-weapon fighting with longsword and shield and then switch in a short sword for better damage and lower defense on occasion.

We already had a sword and board iconic though, Seelah. Passing the two-weapon fighting to Harsk tells me crossbows might not be any better in PF2, which is concerning.

Grand Lodge

Damiel has been replaced by Mogmurch, the goblin alchemist from the We Be Goblins series?!

Also, please balance Sajan... he's still one of the worst built pregens, 13 Wis at lvl 7 for a monk... wtf?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
I believe it already got confirmed that Harsk is now a TWF based ranger (to the rejoicing of all). I think Paizo was rebuilding a few of them to fit less...shall we say esoteric niches and act as more common builds for newbies.

Harsk and Valeros definitely had a lot of problems in that regard. To an extent, I am disappointed since this seems to indicate that Paizo has given up on the longsword/shortsword fighting style. It never got any noteworthy support in PF1E and over the course of the system's lifespan went from being bad to completely unviable. Valeros changing his fighting style will make for a more usable pregen for newbies - which is definitely a positive - but it looks to me like Paizo isn't even going to try to make longsword/shortsword work.

Still an improvement; if we are going to get a dysfunctional fighting style, at least the iconics won't be using it.

Longsword/shortsword is actually pretty solid now, or at least, I've seen that build putting out good damage. The switch to have Valeros also carry a shield, as I've heard it explained, is more to allow the iconic character to have access to the iconic sword and board style. But he still has his short sword, and there's no reason you couldn't build for two-weapon fighting with longsword and shield and then switch in a short sword for better damage and lower defense on occasion.

Hmm... Could stuff like "Weapon Focus" that locks you into using one kind of weapon be going away/modified to be more flexible? That's one of the problems with the longsword/shortsword style, you were seriously doing TWF wrong if you weren't dual-wielding two of the same weapon so all your bonuses affect both weapons.


Who says Weapon focus still locks you in to one weapon? Look at Starfinder, seems they learned it there, maybe they'll do that here too?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Longsword/shortsword is actually pretty solid now, or at least

Very good to hear. There was always the problem in PF1E that there was negligible incentive to use longsword/shortsword over shortsword/shortsword, but a whole slew of reasons why not to. It's good to hear that it might be more nuanced this time around.

Selvaxri wrote:
Also, please balance Sajan... he's still one of the worst built pregens, 13 Wis at lvl 7 for a monk... wtf?

This was because the iconics were built with the elite array... which isn't as good as it sounds. 15/14/13/12/10/8 is pretty bad for Monks. While he should probably have a headband by 7th, you're never going to have a great Monk with an array like that.

Garfaulk Sharpstone wrote:
Who says Weapon focus still locks you in to one weapon?

Here's hoping; feats and class features that force you to lock into a specific weapon are boring, and are annoying with regards to loot drops since anything that doesn't exactly match the specialization of the PC's is going to be either sub-par or unusable.

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