Sooo any chance of including metres in this one?


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Hythlodeus wrote:
cfalcon wrote:
Kerrilyn wrote:
I was rather disturbed by Starfinder's use of obsolete units.
Imperial units are used daily in America. They are assuredly not "obsolete".
7.3 billion people would disagree

Then those people are demonstrably wrong.

Quote:

ob·so·lete

ˌäbsəˈlēt/
adjective
adjective: obsolete

1.
no longer produced or used; out of date.


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Like if 5% of the population are still using Windows 95. It's not obsolete as in 'no longer used'... although it could be argued it's obsolete in the sense of 'out of date'.


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The fact that someone, somewhere, uses the word whence does not in any way mitigate the fact that it is not used in common parlance and is most definitely dated.

Likewise, reckoning temperatures in Fahrenheit is obsolete pretty much anywhere outside the Americas.


Arakhor wrote:
cfalcon wrote:
Kerrilyn wrote:
I was rather disturbed by Starfinder's use of obsolete units.
Imperial units are used daily in America. They are assuredly not "obsolete".
Well, the US pint is different to the UK pint and the US hundredweight and ton are different as well. A system used by 5% or less than the world's population shouldn't be used exclusively by the game.

Used by what proportion of their customer base is the more important question.


It would take a matter of minutes to add both Fahrenheit and Celsius into Endure Elements and has long seemed exclusionary to me that they don't.


But measurement systems can't really be "out of date", just not utilized.

It's not like Windows 95 which led to other newer versions of Windows software which theoretically built off the original.

We're talking about a competing system of measurement that has remained popular in a place to the point that most common measurements are performed in the system.

I can understand why the metric world doesn't like it. It is clunky by comparison to a base 10 system. But that doesn't make it obsolete. It makes it not user friendly. It's like using GIMP software instead of Photoshop. It'll get the job done, but it's more difficult to use along the way.


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Arssanguinus wrote:
Used by what proportion of their customer base is the more important question.

Maybe the reason the majority of their customer base doesn't use metric is because their game doesn't cater for players who prefer metric, so those people don't buy it?


You really honestly believe that the international market would suddenly overwhelm the US market for the Pathfinder customer base if they made it metric instead?


Claxon wrote:

But measurement systems can't really be "out of date", just not utilized.

It's not like Windows 95 which led to other newer versions of Windows software which theoretically built off the original.

We're talking about a competing system of measurement that has remained popular in a place to the point that most common measurements are performed in the system.

I can understand why the metric world doesn't like it. It is clunky by comparison to a base 10 system. But that doesn't make it obsolete. It makes it not user friendly. It's like using GIMP software instead of Photoshop. It'll get the job done, but it's more difficult to use along the way.

As someone who uses both quite regularly the idea that metric is simply more user friendly is false. It’s better at some things and worse at others. It’s not inherently superior.


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Arssanguinus wrote:
As someone who uses both quite regularly the idea that metric is simply more user friendly is false. It’s better at some things and worse at others. It’s not inherently superior.

There is no need to get so hyper defensive about imperial. Metric is exceptionally user-friendly. Its adoption internationally and in the scientific community attests to its user-friendliness.


Aldarc wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
As someone who uses both quite regularly the idea that metric is simply more user friendly is false. It’s better at some things and worse at others. It’s not inherently superior.
There is no need to get so hyper defensive about imperial. Metric is exceptionally user-friendly. Its adoption internationally and in the scientific community attests to its user-friendliness.

Not getting hyper defensive, just correcting inaccuracies. I assure you, any hyper defensiveness is only in your own mind.

One of the things metric is good at is precise scientific measurement.

“Eh, they both have their points and uses.” Is not some sort of hyperventilating panic attack.

Dark Archive

Something that perplexes me about the medieval feel of imperial measures - why is coinage in metric?

Also England is in a weird state, as by law metric measures are required for groceries and pretty much all objects. But all speed signs and cars are still in miles / mph (I don't believe there's anything stopping them from putting imperial on as well - they used to have both for a long time).

Also fahrenheit is something grandparents use, that I can never remember how to convert. I do know that when Americans say it's 100 degrees out, I'm only momentarily concerned that the flesh will be melting from their bones before I remember it's not the same thing.

I'm not sure how much a gallon is, but I can visualize a pint. Feet and Inches I would probably have forgotten long ago if not for RPGs as that's pretty much the only thing I use them for.

Lbs and Oz I use in cooking from old recipe books, so I can visualize them as well, though it's easier to think in metric.


Arssanguinus wrote:
Claxon wrote:

But measurement systems can't really be "out of date", just not utilized.

It's not like Windows 95 which led to other newer versions of Windows software which theoretically built off the original.

We're talking about a competing system of measurement that has remained popular in a place to the point that most common measurements are performed in the system.

I can understand why the metric world doesn't like it. It is clunky by comparison to a base 10 system. But that doesn't make it obsolete. It makes it not user friendly. It's like using GIMP software instead of Photoshop. It'll get the job done, but it's more difficult to use along the way.

As someone who uses both quite regularly the idea that metric is simply more user friendly is false. It’s better at some things and worse at others. It’s not inherently superior.

I use both daily or at least weekly as well, because I often have to explain construction plans to older contractors who grew up when Canada was still imperial. I'm struggling to find an example where I have used the imperial system to greater effect than the metric other than the above noted converting for people who don't know it.

Can you provide some examples of where you perceive it to be better? I'm genuinely curious


Metric user here. Both units are fine to me, almost 20 years using imperial units in D&D/Pf games. Yards were horrible, fts and lbs are easier, some quick basic math conversion and a little to none mental effort does the trick nowadays (3ft - 1m ~ 2lb - 1kg).

Mathematically inaccurate, but adequate. I'm not going to lie, my preference is still metric.

Not-so-fun fact before leaving

Grand Lodge

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You can take my Feet from my cold, dead hands!
*Dang! I'll have to make sure I die in a really weird position!*

http://mathcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/cb2.gif


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Sideromancer wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
So why do most metric people seem to act like it is simultaneously really easy for imperial measure people to convert to metric(which really it is) but not easy to go the other way? 5’9” is 5 9/12,5.75. A meter is about 3 1/4 feet.. therefore 5’9” is about 1.75 meters. Or to put it another way a meter is just shy of forty inches. The conversion isn’t that hard.(not that I object to providing both for convenience)
The amount of practice can become meaningful. If you're used to imperial, you'll probably be converting a decent amount of stuff because metric is in common usage, but if you're used to metric, chances are from your perspective Imperial is not in common usage so you only need to convert it when dealing with US grognards. As a Canadian studying physics, I think of speeds in m/s first, km/h second, cm/s third, miles/h never.

fun fact 1m/s is (roughly) 2.2mph, the maths is complicated, but take mph and halve it to get close enough for guesstimate m/s. Was told that at school in physics, then the maths teacher heard me say it, made me stay behind while we worked the conversion, then apologised whe it turned out I was right.. Which is why I can remember it over 20 years later :p


spinningdice wrote:
Something that perplexes me about the medieval feel of imperial measures - why is coinage in metric?

To be pedantic, not really metric, but decimal (metric is decimal based as well). And the reason is also why they use US units, because the US has decimal currency (plus coinage will be different from location to location so having a universal standard makes it easier on players, as well as making it setting neutral). It's really more of a Wild West style currency system than medieval. Where there was a Gold Eagle worth 10 Silver Dollars, each of which were worth 10 Silver Dimes, each of which were worth 10 Copper Cents (and /technically/ by law these were each worth 10 Mills, but Mills never had official coins and were/are just used in a few places as a unit of account). Platinum is probably just tacked on to go higher and possibly to make it so there weren't two silver coins (well there used to be Electrum in earlier editions too) (Platinum wasn't even fully identified until the 18th century, before that it was considered an impurity in gold).


Arssanguinus wrote:
Arakhor wrote:
cfalcon wrote:
Kerrilyn wrote:
I was rather disturbed by Starfinder's use of obsolete units.
Imperial units are used daily in America. They are assuredly not "obsolete".
Well, the US pint is different to the UK pint and the US hundredweight and ton are different as well. A system used by 5% or less than the world's population shouldn't be used exclusively by the game.
Used by what proportion of their customer base is the more important question.

This.

As far as Paizo does 50% or more of their money in USA + UK, this debate has no point.


I'd wish. It would allow for much more variety in creature sizes, movement, and reach.

Though I swear someone did say a few years ago that most of Paizo's customers are from outside the U.S., if that's true then most of their customers don't use feet in day to day life.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
As far as Paizo does 50% or more of their money in USA + UK, this debate has no point.

If you can find a British gamer who works in Fahrenheit, I'll be shocked.


Temperatures are one thing, that comes up way less in rules text so they could just give F/C equivalents each time. But as far as feet vs meters, there's really no reason they couldn't just list ranges in Squares with a simple definition at the start of the book that a square is 5 feet / 1.5 meters.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:

I'd wish. It would allow for much more variety in creature sizes, movement, and reach.

Though I swear someone did say a few years ago that most of Paizo's customers are from outside the U.S., if that's true then most of their customers don't use feet in day to day life.

The last time I worked with the industry, D&D and PF had something like 70-80% of sales in US and Canada. And I'm pretty sure Canada is a small slice of that.

And that's not even including American expats/soldiers across the globe.

I assume the above is still true, because I keep throwing these percentages around and nobody from the industry ever called them out as wrong.


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For me (a French guy), the hardest part of doing a D&D campaign in English was the units (though I did have to work on the language). As you can guess, the French translation uses metric.

@TheFlyingPhoton Nah, the main argument is that "imperial" is inconsistent (with the same names used for slightly different measures) and unwieldy (with different conversion factors all over the place), while metric is easy to do math with (decimal everywhere, units designed to work together).


If america could switch over to metric wed be better off.


Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:

I'd wish. It would allow for much more variety in creature sizes, movement, and reach.

Though I swear someone did say a few years ago that most of Paizo's customers are from outside the U.S., if that's true then most of their customers don't use feet in day to day life.

How does that make any sense at all? How does expressing it in different units allow more variety of movement rich et al?


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TheFlyingPhoton wrote:

This thread went the way of every metrication debate; the primary reasons for using metric that fuel the pro-metric side are:

1) Americans are a terrible and inferior peoples
2) The French are the master race

If you're going to ally with the guys who develop a now measurement system to rebel against the namesake of the old system, I expected more than just making the gallon smaller.

Dark Archive

I realized I meant decimal, not metric for coins while I was driving home... oops. I just thought it was interesting, as it wasn't all decimal when I started playing back in AD&D 1e days.

I'd also argue with Gustavo that UK & US use imperial. Apart from the previously mentioned miles thing (& possibly pints) anyone under 30 in the UK thinks in metric units. A lot of people in the 30-50 age bracket I know think in metric as well, but I think we're the generation that straddles the systems a bit.


Arssanguinus wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:

I'd wish. It would allow for much more variety in creature sizes, movement, and reach.

Though I swear someone did say a few years ago that most of Paizo's customers are from outside the U.S., if that's true then most of their customers don't use feet in day to day life.

How does that make any sense at all? How does expressing it in different units allow more variety of movement rich et al?

Right, that was my thought when I read this.

The measurement system in no way impacts the ability to have variety of sizes, movement, or reach.

The system is locked into squares of movement and reach. And size is basically meaningless for mechanics, it's the size category (number of squares again) that matter.

If you want more variety, you need a game that decouples itself from the grid.


When it comes to people's weights, I only operate in stones without doing maths (diving by 14 for pounds or by 6.3 for kilos). Likewise, although we talk about a pint of milk, what we're really buying is 568 ml or 1.136 l instead.


Regarding the metric system.

Please, no. Just no.

Feet, yards, and miles, please.

Please, please, please, no meters, liters, or any other such like measurements!


Khudzlin wrote:
@TheFlyingPhoton Nah, the main argument is that "imperial" is inconsistent (with the same names used for slightly different measures) and unwieldy (with different conversion factors all over the place), while metric is easy to do math with (decimal everywhere, units designed to work together).

Exactly, and regular (US)Americans are barely better at functional usage like conversions than anybody else, which is farce of the system because it's "native" users are semi-illiterate in it. Really, I am one, I know :-).

At least Paizo is doing away with weight measures... Although I wonder how they implement that across the board... Characters will now have Bulk instead of weight? (relevant for Mounts, or when carried by other characters, etc)

Dark Archive

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I do honestly wonder why people have sometimes rather violent reaction to idea of game having both feets and meters ._. Seriously, how does it harm anyone to have both?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Arakhor wrote:
Well, the US pint is different to the UK pint and the US hundredweight and ton are different as well.

So? I'd expect different systems to be different.

Quote:
A system used by 5% or less than the world's population shouldn't be used exclusively by the game.

Sure it should.

Hythlodeus wrote:
7.3 billion people would disagree

Hey, any number of people can be simultaneously wrong. Literally everyone I knows uses these measurements daily: they are definitely not obsolete.

Matthew Downie wrote:
although it could be argued it's obsolete in the sense of 'out of date'

They are free to use whatever units they want. It doesn't make the ones we use here 'out of date'. It makes them foreign to them.


Just be glad you don't have to use Harry Potter currency . . . .


cfalcon wrote:
Arakhor wrote:
Well, the US pint is different to the UK pint and the US hundredweight and ton are different as well.
So? I'd expect different systems to be different.

Someone was claiming that Imperial measures were used in the UK, which is true, to a point, but given that US "standard" measures are different again, it's actually worse than simply having both pints and litres listed, given that your pint is smaller than my pint!

Quote:
Quote:
A system used by 5% or less than the world's population shouldn't be used exclusively by the game.
Sure it should.

Not if it wants to have any measure of familiarity. I've already said that listing weights in hundreds or thousands of pounds might as well be listed in Chinese for all the meaning it makes to me.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Just be glad you don't have to use Harry Potter currency . . . .

It's a deliberate mockery of the pre-decimalisation system used in the UK before the 70's. Using prime numbers as the conversion factors is really over-the-top (and something that would never have been done in medieval times).


Arakhor wrote:

Not if it wants to have any measure of familiarity. I've already said that listing weights in hundreds or thousands of pounds might as well be listed in Chinese for all the meaning it makes to me.

Pounds to kilos might be the easiest conversion ever (just divide it by half and you have enough accuracy to at least make a mind image of it).

In any case, assuming it is really hard for you for a moment:
Then it will be really hard for Americans the opposite conversion too. Assuming Paizo has to choose between annoying 30% of their player base, or 70%,of the player base, it is an easy choice. And they sell more in US.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I haven't read most of the posts here, but:

I like the yard. It is close enough to a meter that it doesn't matter which one is used. Too bad that 5 feet are not a full fraction of yards, so you can't simply make the 5ft. square 1 yard squares (which would make everything a bit cramped) or 2 yard squares (which would make everything a bit big).
Dealing with 1.5 yard squares is additional math for everyone involved...
(i.e. 30ft.: that's 6 squares now. But 30ft. are 10 yards, so depending on how big a square is, that's 5 squares (2yd), close to 7 squares (1.5yd) or 10 squares (1yd))
But at least the imperial to metric conversion would be a neat rough 1:1.

So that's no use as well.

And with regard to previous editions, the use of the imperial system of most customers and such, I don't think anything will change.


It would be nice for the online reference to include the conversion (as used in the translations), though.


For instance, how hard would it be to say that the dire tiger weighs 3000 lbs (1300 kg)? It's just a few extra characters and a minute's extra work.

Likewise, to help out Europeans, it couldn't hurt to say that the planetar stands 9 ft (2.75m) tall.


Something like that. Though the conversion used in the translations would have 3000 lbs (1500 kg) and 9 ft (2.70 m).


Arakhor wrote:

For instance, how hard would it be to say that the dire tiger weighs 3000 lbs (1300 kg)? It's just a few extra characters and a minute's extra work.

Likewise, to help out Europeans, it couldn't hurt to say that the planetar stands 9 ft (2.75m) tall.

I a whole book, those few extra chars will add up to a page or two.

I would rather have one extra monster in the bestiary than having aid to divide 3000 by 2.


I was talking about the online version. No extra pages required there. A spell like Create Water would really benefit from this information (especially since a US gallon isn't the same as a UK gallon).


For me, it's a flavor thing.

Meters and the metric system really only make sense on Earth, since it was originally based on the distance from the equator to the North Pole (1 meter is one ten-millionth of the distance). On worlds of differing sizes (perhaps Golarion is larger or smaller) the length of a meter would be different, in game.

Hmmm... Perhaps, a Golarion meter is five feet?


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Hrothgar Rannúlfr wrote:

For me, it's a flavor thing.

Meters and the metric system really only make sense on Earth, since it was originally based on the distance from the equator to the North Pole (1 meter is one ten-millionth of the distance). On worlds of differing sizes (perhaps Golarion is larger or smaller) the length of a meter would be different, in game.

Hmmm... Perhaps, a Golarion meter is five feet?

Given how close a match the golarion system is, I'd take geocentric measurements over anthrocentric ones from a verisimilitude perspective.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Arakhor wrote:


Someone was claiming that Imperial measures were used in the UK, which is true, to a point

Right, that point is 1824, at which point the UK changed a bunch of stuff about their measures.

Fads like the metric system have their adherents, but we can't be constantly updating our measurements to meet whatever philosophy is common in Europe at a given time. We'd never have time for football.


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cfalcon wrote:
Arakhor wrote:


Someone was claiming that Imperial measures were used in the UK, which is true, to a point

Right, that point is 1824, at which point the UK changed a bunch of stuff about their measures.

Fads like the metric system have their adherents, but we can't be constantly updating our measurements to meet whatever philosophy is common in Europe at a given time. We'd never have time for football.

I don't see you holding on to the stadion, so this rings a bit hollow.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The metric system is awful.

For weight and linear distance it is beyond useless, and it is based on absolutely random measurements which are meaningless.

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