And now you may know fear, like the rest of us... a rant by a big dumb fighter...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Okay, I took the original concept of a big stupid scary tiefling fighter who wields a large greatsword to see what I came up with at level 10. I went with standard wealth by level, but included no outside buffs.

Spoiler:

Tiefling (Qlippoth-Spawn) 10
Str 26 (20+2 level+4 enh) dex 12 con 14 int 5 wis 14 cha 8
Racial Abilities: Scaled Skin (+1 natural Armor, Fire Resistance 5), Skilled (+2 to Escape Artist and Survival), Darkvision 60', Prehensile Tail, Oversized Arms
Skills: Survival +17, Intimidate +26 (+1 skill point from favored class bonus)
Traits: Muscle of the society, Indominable Faith
Feats: 1st: Power Attack, Furious Focus 2nd: Weapon Focus (Greatsword) 3rd: Skill Focus (Intimidation) 4th: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) 5th: Advanced Weapon Training (Warrior Spirit) 6th: Vital Stirike 7th: Corungon Smash [Adavanced Armor Training: Armored Confidence] 8th: Dazzling Display 9th: Signature skill (Intimidation), [Advanced Weapon Training (Armed Bravery)] 10th: Advanced Weapon Training (Dazzling Intimidation)

Important Equipment
Large Adamantine Greatsword +2, Gloves of Dueling, Belt of giant strength +4, cloak of resistance +3 , Full plate +1, ~7000 gp in other equipment

Single attack +25 to hit (+10 BAB, +8 str, +1 WF, +4 weapon training, +2 enhancement), 6d6+29 (+12str +9 PA +2 WS, +4 WT, +2 enh)
Full attack +25/+17 to hit, 3d6+29

With warrior spirit (bane): An additional +5 to hit, +2d6+5 dam 5/day


So calling upon his dark power 5 times a day (making his weapon a +5 bane weapon), he does an average of 62 points of damage as a standard action and 110 as a full action. Each hit he gets a free demorallize check, and if he beats the DC by 10 they have to make a DC 20 will save or become panicked for a round or be frightened for 1d4 rounds (they will be shaken pretty much automatically). By taking a standard action, he can demoralize all enemies within a 30' radius.

Out of combat he has a few roles. He is a a quite competent tracker. He can intimidate pretty much anyone. With the adamantine greatsword he can smash most things to rubble. He can carry over a half ton, and briefly lift over a ton. He has a +12 will save to help keep from killing his friends.

There you go. A big, stupid terrifyingly effective fighter.


Nice. I would never dump int that much, however. And of course spending some of that 7000 to boost wis for a even better Will save. etc.

still, it works quite well.


Well, he is supposed to be dumb after all. It's a feature, not a bug.

One of the issues with fighters and their 2 skill points per level is that once you go below Int 10, there is no reason not to continue to dump Int, since you can't go below one skill point no matter how far down you go. So what if you take a -3 to Int skills. You don't have any Int skills to worry about in the first place.


I'd just like to point out that 10 int and 7 charisma is basically 80% of the people you'll meet in real life... So if they can be funny and can have a conversation and do some limited critical thinking then so can your fighter... Roleplaying 10 int 7 Cha probably doesn't require much for most people because that matches them IRL...


It's usually not just one guy talking, you're a party, you all talk and then the dude with +40 Diplo does the roll.

You can roll to assist and if you're successful great and if not it's not a major loss.


DrDeth wrote:

Nope, the fighter does't have to be buffed, but agaign, D&D is a team game. Does the wizard need condition removal and healing from the divine caster? My Fighter rarely needs buffs to be the most dangerous member of the party.

Just making up a name for something like "mistake zero" doesnt give it any credance. D&D is now, and always has been- a Team game. Each memember of the team contributes. Mitsake Zero is theorycrafting that the team will not play as a team.

Nor did I say ""Ask your teammates to give you buffs" in my post. The OP build a sub-optimal build, and obviously doesnt know about much better, more optimized fighter build- fighters who can- with feats- fly, dimension door, and see invisible.

Yes, of course- my players dont know how to optimize. Trust me, they do.

My spellcaster wouldn't, ever. Most every appropriate challenge would be blasted to bits before they get the chance to react to my spell. The factor that spellcasters, the main focus of the game, defeat the entire purpose of it being a team game with their unmatched power and versatility, means Pathfinder fails to deliver on this front, at the very least on an optimized and/or comparable level.

I'd say it does, because Mistake Zero is expecting Rule Zero to compensate for the obvious design choices of the game to make for a more enjoyable experience for those who decide to play well outside of said obvious design choices, a result that varies both wildly, and usually not in favor of the person committing Mistake Zero to begin with. I don't see GMs saying "Okay, Fighters get their own source of spells now," to compensate that they aren't able to change the narrative or properly interact with the game world as spellcasting classes can (and do).

I know you didn't, but when you reference "team game" with a class that doesn't get the ability to buff, and requires said buffs to function, "ask for buffs from your party members" becomes the implied response, unless you have a GM spontaneously deciding Fighters get spells to buff themselves with, which is both way outside the norm and something obviously not intended by the developers.

I'd say it still is. My spellcaster can deal with outsiders of most every kind as needed, especially if they are weaker minions. You're stating that the spellcasters can't even scratch them. Quite frankly, if your spellcasters can't defeat typical outsiders, that's an optimization issue, especially since it appears that your spellcasters are optimized at buffing Fighters, and not slaying demons or other denizens that dare challenge them.


*Thelith wrote:
I'd just like to point out that 10 int and 7 charisma is basically 80% of the people you'll meet in real life... So if they can be funny and can have a conversation and do some limited critical thinking then so can your fighter... Roleplaying 10 int 7 Cha probably doesn't require much for most people because that matches them IRL...

This particular fighter has an Int of 5 and Cha 8. So... yeah.


So almost average looking and 5 int is higher than a dolphin or dog or elephant which are all smart enough to problem solve... Obviously it's a mechanical negative modifier but you can still contribute...


Fighters have it rough, I saw this little fan drawing of wizards,clerics and druids doing all kinds of neat magic stuff. Fighter in chain,shield and longsword is there with a person holding a big Nerfhammer who says, 'We decided to nerf the weapon cord because we felt it was too powerful."


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Nope, the fighter does't have to be buffed, but agaign, D&D is a team game. Does the wizard need condition removal and healing from the divine caster? My Fighter rarely needs buffs to be the most dangerous member of the party.

Just making up a name for something like "mistake zero" doesnt give it any credance. D&D is now, and always has been- a Team game. Each memember of the team contributes. Mitsake Zero is theorycrafting that the team will not play as a team.

Nor did I say ""Ask your teammates to give you buffs" in my post. The OP build a sub-optimal build, and obviously doesnt know about much better, more optimized fighter build- fighters who can- with feats- fly, dimension door, and see invisible.

Yes, of course- my players dont know how to optimize. Trust me, they do.

My spellcaster wouldn't, ever. Most every appropriate challenge would be blasted to bits before they get the chance to react to my spell. The factor that spellcasters, the main focus of the game, defeat the entire purpose of it being a team game with their unmatched power and versatility, means Pathfinder fails to deliver on this front, at the very least on an optimized and/or comparable level.

That's nice. Our party's monk still does yhe lion's share of damage at 11th level while my caster druid mostly plays control, heal, and buff, using blasts only when there are enough foes that the area damage is significant or there's nothing better to do. Meanwhile our wizard occasionally gets in a lucky disintegrate but otherwise is about on par with the rest of the party, and either of us can still get wrecked if they get the surprise round on us. This experience is typical for the tables I play at. Your problems are not universal.


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Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Taking a 14 Int and spending one of three available feats on Cunning/Fast learner as a human fighter gets you 6 SP/level, starting at first level.

The rest of it just makes you a full-blown skill monkey. (Yes, Abundant Tactics + Barroom Brawler does result in Schrodinger's fighter. Unlike Paragon Surge, it's not restricted to one race.)

And if you think casters have that much disposable income, you need to try playing a full caster. Bumping up those save DCs and expanding spells/day cost just as much as a marital pays improving AC/DPR. Assuming the caster is not paying out just as much as the martial on armor. Other items, like a cloak of resistance or a CON belt, everyone pays for.

Six skill points per level is just not good. Especially since skills themselves aren't very good, and many of them are easily obviated by low-level spells. Woo, enough points to match an Int 10 Barbarian off of a worse skill list~

More importantly, I'm not pointing to Paragon Surge as some achievement or boon of the casters. It's a terrible mechanic that shouldn't be in the game at all. My point is, give it to a caster, and they're some absurd god. But giving the exact same trick to muggles and they can barely keep afloat with that. It is telling that you're saying a Fighter needs to Paragon Surge juggle just to have some trace of the flexibility they're billed as having! What's more, Paragon Surge just takes a second-level spell slot and one second-level spell known, which both become easier to spare as you level up. You could even get that spell known as a favored class bonus for some races while your Fighter is getting +1 skill rank with theirs. Or, you can offload it onto a wand or scroll. Meanwhile, the Fighter has to spend a feat to do it once a day, level 4 at the earliest, then another feat to get a second use per day at level 5. Which last a minute a pop.

You are extolling two feats to get two minutes of a worse version of a single second-level spell as something that makes the fighter flexible and viable outside of combat. If that's not damning, I don't know what is.

And what makes it all worse is... Fighter is one of the better muggles. Especially with the apology patch that is the Weapon/Armor Master's Handbooks. Brawler stands about equal and the Barbarian and Slayer are a cut above, but you've still got the Rogue, Monk, Ninja, Cavalier, Samurai, Swashbuckler, Vigilante.

Now, as to disposable income? First, there are nine ninth-level casters in this game. Only three of them- the Wizard, Witch, and Arcanist- have to pay for spells. An even smaller portion of the sixth-level casters have to pay for spells.

Second, no. No, scribing spells to your spellbook does not cost nearly as much as the magic weapon/armor treadmill unless one of two things happens. Either you try and scribe ALL OF THE SPELLS, which is a colossal waste of money, or the GM is actively going after the spellbook/familiar and you need to make backups or replace familiars. In this case, the GM is not playing fairly, unless they are also going after the Fighter's magic sword, equally without recompense in terms of wealth by level. That is also a terrible idea, since destroying expensive permanent items essential to character performance without compensating wealth breaks the design assumptions of the game.

But no, maintaining a fat spellbook/familiar is not expensive relative to magic weapons/armor, even setting aside the fact that most casters don't need it. And I know. I've played more than my share of Batman witches and wizards. Yes, the Wizard wants the stat boosting items and the save-boosting items that everyone else wants, but again, everyone else wants those. For the Fighter, it's in addition to the weapon/armor treadmill, and the magic items they need to not be completely pigeonholed.

DrDeth wrote:

This idea that the Fighter is somehow "less than stellar" doesnt mmatch how I have see the fighter player, or how the Developers own games are played. Perhaps the Fighter being less that steller in your games is the outlier then?

Few spells are insta kills. Most likely you have a "save or suck" in which case, it is the fighters job to kill the now sucky monster.

Umm, no, that's usually bad tactics. What is good tactics is for one member to delay or hold off three foes, while three party members quickly finish one foe at a time.

The classic wizard is the Treatmonk "God wizard" who most specifically does not "win the combat" he instead "provides the
tools for the rest of the party to win, by "controlling reality""

And of course, buffing can and often should go on before the combat and/or will include the entire party. Haste for example.

You don't need insta-kill spells.

You have tons of spells that remove the enemy from ability to be a meaningful threat, either by denying them the mobility to reach the fight in a meaningful length of time or denying them the ability to act as they choose. If you are in a four-person party and spend one round's actions to deny half the enemy the ability to engage for two rounds, you've done an entire party's worth of work in terms of action economy.

There's not just save-or-die and save-or-suck. There's save-or-lose.

The quote you give is something of a PR piece to the Batman-style Wizard. It implies something not-quite true.

It implies that killing the enemy is winning the fight.

In reality, for all practical purposes, the fight is won long before the last HP is gone. The fight is decided in the first couple of rounds, and the rest is just cleanup.

Part of a mage's job is providing tools, but a larger part is denying them to the enemies. When the enemy has been effectively neutralized as a threat, DPR and where the damage is coming from become largely academic questions because the fight's already won and the Fighter didn't even show up. They get the glory shot of killing strokes, but that's not influencing the outcome of the fight that was won two rounds ago.

What's more, most two thirds or full casters are legitimate martial powers of their own if they so choose to be.

Of those nine ninth-level casters and twelve sixth-level casters, not counting unchained and archetypes?

Two of the ninth-level casters, the Cleric and Druid, are classic unstoppable wrecking balls of martial madness that is CoDzilla if you choose to build that way. The Oracle and Shaman aren't difficult to turn into CoDzilla, either.

And the sixth-level casters? Literally all of them either are or can easily be turned into legitimate martial forces to be reckoned with, possibly excepting the Mesmerist. In some cases, mainly the Summoner, this is by proxy, but that eidolon is one of their main class features. So it's not like by being a mage, you're sacrificing martial ability. In a lot of cases, you're way better at it than the dedicated martial characters.

What happens in play much of the time is the casters will choose as a courtesy to be bad at mixing it up in close quarters, but when you're building around design flaws like that, there's a design flaw to be built around.


Thank you, Omnius, you are far more eloquent than I. But you obviously understand what I was trying to say.


MannyGoblin wrote:
Fighters have it rough, I saw this little fan drawing of wizards,clerics and druids doing all kinds of neat magic stuff. Fighter in chain,shield and longsword is there with a person holding a big Nerfhammer who says, 'We decided to nerf the weapon cord because we felt it was too powerful."

Weapon cord was not nerfed because of the fighter.

It was nerfed because of one extremely overpowered gunslinger build.

A more surgical solution would have been a ruling/errata on the mechanics the gunslinger was abusing instead of nerfing an otherwise trivial item that many classes use.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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VoodistMonk wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Drunk, martial, and online is no wwy to go through life.
That's completely fair. And accurate.

Threads starting with drunk venting about martial/caster balance are unlikely to go smoothly. We've had this conversation (many) times before and if its going to come up again, it really needs to start out with less hostile posts.

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