Has anyone used this Unchained system (or their own variant of it) in an Adventure Path? How did it work?
My biggest concern is how to deal with existing treasure. Halving monetary rewards is simple enough. But what about existing magical items.
Do I simply remove all those that don't exist anymore? Or do I replace the +1 elements in +1 weapons for something like Keen instead?
I like the system but it unfortunately seems like a lot of work when not used in a homebrew
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It's a lot of work, but doable. I'm preparing to run Shattered Star and have basically combed through the entire AP calculating the treasure per module, divided that between the party members present and then halved that treasure, removing treasure from individual encounters.
In regards to magic weapons, magic armor and rare magical items with stat bonuses and special functions, you got to calculate the different qualities and re-calculate the price of the item.
For weapons and armor this is pretty easy, a +1 Flaming Longsword becomes a Flaming Longsword, hence a +1 weapon. However, the official system which asks you to give up enhancement bonuses you got through automatic progression for special abilities really sucks. I went with the solution to just make special abilities cost 1,5 times the base price, i.e. a Flaming Burst longsword (a +2 enhancement) costs 12000 GP or a Ghost Touch Keen Flaming Burst Longsword (+4 enhancement) costs 48000 GP. Weapons with just magical enhancement bonuses instead of special abilities, of which there are quite a lot in AP's, just become masterwork weapons. Same goes for armor.
As an example for wondrous items, the Headband of Mental Resilience gives you a special effect and a +2 to a mental stat. The special effect clearly is the more expensive one at an item cost of 64k GP, so if you remove the stat booster effect from the item, you calculate its cost at 1,5 times its normal price, i.e. 6000 GP, leaving you with an item cost of 58k GP.
So, the things you got to do, step by step:
- Go through all modules of the AP, calculate total treasure
- Recalculate the value of magical weapons and armor and some special magic items
- Divide the treasure total by the number of players you have in your campaign, then compare that individual value to the WBL each player character is supposed to have
- Paizo AP's normally swim in treasure, about +20% more than the WBL table would lead you to expect, sometimes even significantly more. Seldomly less, but that is mostly made up in later/earlier modules). Calculate how you want to tailor the total treasure the PC's can find. I personally give them +20% than normal WBL, to account for them not finding/getting some stuff. Bonus rewards like exceptional performance bonuses from an employer are left out in my calculations.
- Now remove treasure from the individual modules. Of course magic enhancements on weapons and armor are gone, as are cloaks of resistance, stat boosters, etc. Then I personally go for gold values or really difficult to transport stuff. Then I remove useless magic items, i.e. Horns of Something-Something and the like, which in my experience always go to the vendor.
And of course there's a second part to the process as well, which is re-calculating NPC's abilities. It's up to you if you just re-calculate their class levels or, if they are monsters with combined racial hit dice and class levels, all of the hit dice. If you choose the second approach like I did, let's just say that giants with class levels become scary scary scary. ^^
I've run two adventure paths with it and had no problems. I just dropped any treasure that gave only numerical bonuses.
Or that. Although I've found that then the supposed "half WBL" the PC's are to receive with the automated bonus progression can't be achieved, since stat bonus items and magic weapons/armor don't account for 50% of the treasure in an AP. Hence my more complicated solution. ^^
Or that. Although I've found that then the supposed "half WBL" the PC's are to receive with the automated bonus progression can't be achieved, since stat bonus items and magic weapons/armor don't account for 50% of the treasure in an AP. Hence my more complicated solution. ^^
Have you found that they end up with more than half?
Because I don’t have a problem with it coming down in that side of the equation- notably because buying gear is tougher in Hells Rebels and also it might make it more fun to see what they end up with
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I've run a full AP with automatic bonus progression, and it went quite well. (It was Hell's Rebels.) At first I went through and halved all the wealth, and later I got lazy and just took out the +x items. My players did not feel like they had too little wealth, and were honestly at a loss for what to do with the wealth they did have after a certain point. Regardless, I and everyone were instant converts to ABP to the point that my players who also GM have adopted it in their games, and I'm using it for everything I run from now on.
I've run a full AP with automatic bonus progression, and it went quite well. (It was Hell's Rebels.) At first I went through and halved all the wealth, and later I got lazy and just took out the +x items. My players did not feel like they had too little wealth, and were honestly at a loss for what to do with the wealth they did have after a certain point. Regardless, I and everyone were instant converts to ABP to the point that my players who also GM have adopted it in their games, and I'm using it for everything I run from now on.
This is interesting. I plan on running Rebels soon and am considering using ABP
My plan was to just take out the +x items / make them masterwork
Wealth expenditure seems tricky in that AP because of limitations from military law.
Two questions:
- Did spell casters complain that they were forced into weapon enhancements
- What did you do for magic weapons with more than just the enhancement. E.g. a +2 flaming rapier - does that just become a flaming rapier?
I am considering allowing a choice to be made about the order the stat increases are received. The only problem that will cause is with Hero Lab
My other thought was to not apply the system to weapons. But I am undecided
From reading parts of the first book it sounds like the players might start a little short changed in that they can't make use of the cloak of resistance or magic weapons found (but not many would use the +1 whip, but might use the clerics +1 heavy mace). By 4th level I think it all evens out quite well
What I also might consider is creating "+0 weapons" - so they count as magical for DR purposes but have no enhancement bonus...
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Two questions:
- Did spell casters complain that they were forced into weapon enhancements
Nope. The bigger issue that has come up was animal companions. My imperfect solution to that was to say that +x items existed for animal companions.
Two questions:
- What did you do for magic weapons with more than just the enhancement. E.g. a +2 flaming rapier - does that just become a flaming rapier?
Yup, just made it flaming, and it would count against their total enhancement bonus to use. So, like, when they had a +3 weapon, the investigator with the keen inspired rapier essentially had a +1 keen inspired rapier.
Or that. Although I've found that then the supposed "half WBL" the PC's are to receive with the automated bonus progression can't be achieved, since stat bonus items and magic weapons/armor don't account for 50% of the treasure in an AP. Hence my more complicated solution. ^^Have you found that they end up with more than half?
Because I don’t have a problem with it coming down in that side of the equation- notably because buying gear is tougher in Hells Rebels and also it might make it more fun to see what they end up with
Actually, since I've gone over Hell's Rebels treasure values already (since I firmly plan to run it once my group wants to play it. Paizo is just throwing so many fantastic AP's out lately that it is hard to get them as excited for it as I am), you might be right here, since Hell's Rebels gives out a lot of treasure in equipment.
Partly that is because Hell's Rebels gives out notably more WBL than most other AP's I've run. Let's see if I can break it down:
Treasure (i.e. equipment of all sorts) is noted down as having 1/2 value, as per the usual rules that merchants will buy off that stuff at that price.
Module 1:
11845 GP Gold
15725 GP Treasure
27570 GP Total
24000 GP WBL / 4 PC's
Module 2:
40733 GP Gold
94250 GP Treasure
134983 GP Total
70000 GP WBL / 4 PC's
Module 3:
63395 GP Gold
289286 GP Treasure
352681 GP Total
154000 GP WBL / 4 PC's
Module 4:
173402 GP Gold
514133 GP Treasure
687535 GP Total
312000 GP WBL / 4 PC's
Module 5:
55071 GP Gold
351994 GP Treasure
407065 GP Total
400000 GP WBL / 4 PC's
Module 6:
242675 GP Gold
919846 GP Treasure
1162521 GP Total
680000 GP WBL / 4 PC's
As you can see, with the exception of modules one and five, there's a metric ton of treasure (i.e. magical and non-magical equipment) in that AP. Hence just taking out the stat boosters and magic arms and armor might work out, but don't underestimate the cost of all the other magic items players can find, which would also only sell at 50% and hence are included in my treasure totals. Sadly I did not go the extra mile to differentiate between the two types of items.
Or that. Although I've found that then the supposed "half WBL" the PC's are to receive with the automated bonus progression can't be achieved, since stat bonus items and magic weapons/armor don't account for 50% of the treasure in an AP. Hence my more complicated solution. ^^Have you found that they end up with more than half?
Because I don’t have a problem with it coming down in that side of the equation- notably because buying gear is tougher in Hells Rebels and also it might make it more fun to see what they end up withActually, since I've gone over Hell's Rebels treasure values already (since I firmly plan to run it once my group wants to play it. Paizo is just throwing so many fantastic AP's out lately that it is hard to get them as excited for it as I am), you might be right here, since Hell's Rebels gives out a lot of treasure in equipment.
Partly that is because Hell's Rebels gives out notably more WBL than most other AP's I've run. Let's see if I can break it down:
Treasure (i.e. equipment of all sorts) is noted down as having 1/2 value, as per the usual rules that merchants will buy off that stuff at that price.
Module 1:
11845 GP Gold
15725 GP Treasure
27570 GP Total
24000 GP WBL / 4 PC'sModule 2:
40733 GP Gold
94250 GP Treasure
134983 GP Total
70000 GP WBL / 4 PC'sModule 3:
63395 GP Gold
289286 GP Treasure
352681 GP Total
154000 GP WBL / 4 PC'sModule 4:
173402 GP Gold
514133 GP Treasure
687535 GP Total
312000 GP WBL / 4 PC'sModule 5:
55071 GP Gold
351994 GP Treasure
407065 GP Total
400000 GP WBL / 4 PC'sModule 6:
242675 GP Gold
919846 GP Treasure
1162521 GP Total
680000 GP WBL / 4 PC'sAs you can see, with the exception of modules one and five, there's a metric ton of treasure (i.e. magical and non-magical equipment) in that AP. Hence just taking out the stat boosters and magic arms and armor might work out, but don't underestimate the cost...
Could you please clarify the last line of each book
So are you saying, using book 6 as an example, that part wealth should be 680,000 between the 4 based on the 50% ABP figure and it will actually be 1,162,521 if they find everything? If not where do the figures come from? As I assume the three top lines for each book are what is actually there if everything is found?
And do the top 3 lines include any rebellion based gifts?
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If I may chime in, I'm currently using a modified version of APB in my Mummy's Mask campaign.
Because my group doesn't like the "inbalance" of the weapon and armor bonuses in APB between warriors and spell casters, we've dropped that part of APB. We use the rest of APB as normal. Thus, any weapons and armor still have their normal magic, whether found or crafted. All other items with plus bonuses are not available.
Regarding any found treasure, I just removed any plus items that is already covered by APB (except weapons and armor). NPCs still have the same stats as if they had their normal items, but I don't include those items in the loot.
For example, a looter has +1 leather armor, short sword, and ring of protection +1. The PCs only find the +1 leather armor and short sword (no ring) after defeating the looter.
It has so far worked out to about 75% WBL for the players.
If I may chime in, I'm currently using a modified version of APB in my Mummy's Mask campaign.
Because my group doesn't like the "inbalance" of the weapon and armor bonuses in APB between warriors and spell casters, we've dropped that part of APB. We use the rest of APB as normal. Thus, any weapons and armor still have their normal magic, whether found or crafted. All other items with plus bonuses are not available.
Regarding any found treasure, I just removed any plus items that is already covered by APB (except weapons and armor). NPCs still have the same stats as if they had their normal items, but I don't include those items in the loot.
For example, a looter has +1 leather armor, short sword, and ring of protection +1. The PCs only find the +1 leather armor and short sword (no ring) after defeating the looter.
It has so far worked out to about 75% WBL for the players.
Thanks for your views
This is what I am leaning towards. I am not a fan of the imbalance and also the weapons rules in generalI also might allow players to reverse the stat boost - so pick a mental or a physical at level 6 and the other at 7 rather than being forced - as that seems to overly favor casters who do not need extra favor
Could you please clarify the last line of each book
So are you saying, using book 6 as an example, that part wealth should be 680,000 between the 4 based on the 50% ABP figure and it will actually be 1,162,521 if they find everything? If not where do the figures come from? As I assume the three top lines for each book are what is actually there if everything is found?
And do the top 3 lines include any rebellion based gifts?
Sorry for the late answer, life came in-between.
The last line is the regular WBL four characters should receive combined at the levels they are supposed to be at in the referenced module. For example 4 times 6000 GP for the first module (which goes up to level four) = 24000 GP.
This is not halved yet for the WBL adjustment you should do for automatic bonus progression. I did those charts initially for a campaign with normal itemization and have been adjusting them only for Shattered Star so far.