Time between Pathfinder and Starfinder


General Discussion


Anyone able to inform me how much ingame time has passed between the 'current' year in Pathfinder and Starfinder?

Starfinder timeline tells only the history after the Gap. (little more then 300 years of time)

But how many time has passed inbetween then and Pathfinders current year?

Liberty's Edge

That's just it, we don't know be because the history before the Gap is lost.

This gives you lots of room to work with.

The designers are not saying, at least right now, how much time was lost during the Gap.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of the mysteries of the Gap is how long it is.

Other than "thousands of years" between the Pathfinder timeline and the Starfinder timeline, there is no definite answer. Whether it's a couple thousand or several thousand is unknown.


How much time was lost -during- the Gap, sure. But before the Gap all time is lost too? Geez. Allright. Thanks! :D


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Its not lost lost, its just vague. The normal difficulties of recalling history when separated by several thousand years. Which is to say, the big thing is not needing to reveal the canonical outcomes of the APs.


Valiant wrote:
How much time was lost -during- the Gap, sure. But before the Gap all time is lost too? Geez. Allright. Thanks! :D

Look at it this way, we in our real world have never had a gap and our history stretches back about 5-6 thousand years and we still find out new things about our history daily and have tons of things we do not know about our ancient world.

The one big advantage we have now is that our technology makes recording data and information a lot easier than any time before in human history. But if that data was magically wiped from our tech? We would be stumped too.

It is very possible that ancient, physical historical materials, pre gap, were old enough to not physically survive the interim. Even assuming it was saved to electronic format during the gap, that would have been wiped because of the gap.

Also keep in mind that in our world we went from flintlocks and outhouses to hand held computers and satellites in less than 3 centuries.

The rate of technological advancement on Golarion could have been slightly slower since magic does so much we develop science to do in our world or it could have been vastly faster if magic was used to co develop it. That is up for the GM to determine.

But even if the gap was only one millenia long, science could have come a LONG way in that 1000 years.


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Gary Bush wrote:
That's just it, we don't know be because the history before the Gap is lost.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. It's stated that history lines up again before the Gap, and that historians do know quite a bit about that.

It's the history in the Gap that's messed up, and nobody knows how long it was. My personal theory is that Pathfinder takes place in the Gap. Would give both Pathfinder and Starfinder designers the greatest flexibility.


It's interesting from a narrative standpoint but infuriating from a scientific standpoint.

My suggestion? Don't think about it too hard or you'll get mad. Enjoy it for what it is. It's a way for them to artfully ignore centuries to millenia of scientific development and history.


I asked, because I had to know an indication of how old a character would be if it lived in Pathfinder and somehow survived to be played in Starfinder. I just needed an age indication :D


Starfinder Superscriber

The gap seems to have lasted several thousand years. So unless it's a dragon, a deity, undead, or a druid with a reincarnate contingency, they almost certainly couldn't have lived through it.

It seems, from the lore, that people living during the gap didn't notice anything amiss. Society didn't collapse and people were obviously doing stuff. It's as if the Universe did a garbage collection at the end of it and lost all the contextual data for several millennia. The edges are 'fuzzy', in that they seem to have begun and ended at different times in different places, and there are rare islands of coherence (like moments of clarity) interspersed though the epoch.

Anything that happened before it is fine as is anything that happened afterward, but who did what to whom and when, why, and how they did it during it are all lost.


pithica42 wrote:
The gap seems to have lasted several thousand years. So unless it's a dragon, a deity, undead, or a druid with a reincarnate contingency, they almost certainly couldn't have lived through it.

I'm not certain on this, but aren't most non-native outsiders unaging, too? Like elementals, genies, and the vast number of aligned outsiders. They can certainly die, but not from old age, I think.

pithica42 wrote:
It seems, from the lore, that people living during the gap didn't notice anything amiss. Society didn't collapse and people were obviously doing stuff. It's as if the Universe did a garbage collection at the end of it and lost all the contextual data for several millennia.

It's weirder than even that, because it's stated that records are not just missing or incomplete, but contradictory. So, it's possible that some timeline shenanigans were involved and that there isn't one single history. The entry on the Sun in the CRB mentions the possibility of warped time, so this is not out of the question. This makes the existence of those islands of coherence even stranger and more interesting.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There are specifically bone sages that were around before the gap, but the gap is also said to not have lasted the same amount of time each location, so there's some wiggle room there.

"while the Gap is universal—and a combination of carbon dating and astrochronology suggest it lasted several millennia—its edges are geotemporally inconsistent. Where one star system might have accurate records stretching back 300 years from the present, worlds in different parts of the galaxy might have 310 years of history, or only 275. Some scholars have even uncovered rare “caches” within the Gap—places where accounts seem suddenly consistent for a given period or topic"

Also: "...sometimes uncover documents referring to dates in ar or “Absalom Reckoning,” a measurement believed to have been used for nearly 5 millennia..." which could mean many different things.


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Starfinder Superscriber
Nixitur wrote:
I'm not certain on this, but aren't most non-native outsiders unaging, too? Like elementals, genies, and the vast number of aligned outsiders. They can certainly die, but not from old age, I think.

My list wasn't meant to be exhaustive, just exemplary. Yes, anything that doesn't age (like demons or Genie) would also work.

Nixitur wrote:
It's weirder than even that, because it's stated that records are not just missing or incomplete, but contradictory. So, it's possible that some timeline shenanigans were involved and that there isn't one single history. The entry on the Sun in the CRB mentions the possibility of warped time, so this is not out of the question. This makes the existence of those islands of coherence even stranger and more interesting.

Time Travel paradoxes are also an interesting possibility. My own pet theory is that the SF universe is a simulation and the memory got corrupt. A bunch of the pointers point to garbage in the data, empty memory addresses, or to the wrong data.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that there were pre-Gap elves still around.


There are. And they're salty as hell about it.

Liberty's Edge

There are, and they don't remember what happened.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
I could have sworn that I read somewhere that there were pre-Gap elves still around.

Elves don't live thousands of years(only hundreds), there are elves who were around during the gap but there are no living elves around from before the (pre) gap.

CRB, page 507 wrote:
the elven generation whose lives extended back into the Gap continued on, broken and confused by the blank centuries in their own lives and memories. What’s more, those leaders charged with trying to piece together their social history from scraps soon came to a grim conclusion: during the Gap, their race had been betrayed by another—yet exactly which race was involved remains unclear, all suggestions of the answer scrubbed by malicious intent or the Gap itself.

That is why there are satly AF.


I figured (headcanon) that there was also some galactic+ level oddities that prevented easy dating along with carbon dating like stuff. Like, "well, if we just take stellar drift we should be able to see how much things have changed since our reference star chart!'

but then they realize Star X has moved this much, but Star B has only moved this much, and Star A has moved waaaay this much, so even things like normal expansion/movement is all screwy.


Starfinder Superscriber

That's what I was thinking too. That most of them are within a few decades of where they're supposed to be for the timeline, but there are enough weird outliers that they can't be sure if it's 2000 years or 3000 years (or whatever the actual timeline looks like).


Pathfinder's Numeria: A giant ship from the stars crashed on Golarion. There are multiple PFS Scenario's set there. My idea was claiming that my (specificly created for technomancy knowledge) character ventured in there and managed/needed to put her conciousness in an Android core. I retired her in such a scenario where that was done. (as in several PFS scenario's has happened to npc's), thenforth surviving as an Android.... and in Starfinder recreated as an Android. I just needed to know how 'old' the Starfinder Android would be on the character sheet.


I would personally play upon the inconsistency of the gap. Part of the characters problem could be that they do not know how old they are. The bigger question to me would be why are they not still stuck on Golarian wherever it disappeared to. This could again be used as a driving factor for the character though and just add more to their own personal mystery.
-Beta


Valiant wrote:
Pathfinder's Numeria: A giant ship from the stars crashed on Golarion. There are multiple PFS Scenario's set there. My idea was claiming that my (specificly created for technomancy knowledge) character ventured in there and managed/needed to put her conciousness in an Android core. I retired her in such a scenario where that was done. (as in several PFS scenario's has happened to npc's), thenforth surviving as an Android.... and in Starfinder recreated as an Android. I just needed to know how 'old' the Starfinder Android would be on the character sheet.

You do know that Androffan androids aren't unaging, right? If the android body wasn't in stasis for the vast majority of the intervening period between PF and SF, it would have gone through reset (returning the body to factory settings, undoing aging while deleting the previous personality).

Aside from that, I'm fairly certain SF androids are not Androffan-type androids, being less skinjob and more toaster.


Can’t they carbon date Absalom Station to at least get a “minimum” amount of time passes?


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Pax Rafkin wrote:
Can’t they carbon date Absalom Station to at least get a “minimum” amount of time passes?

If the station has decent cosmic ray shielding, then no.

Also, the station doesn't have the full 100-mile-high atmosphere like a real planet, so less carbon-14 would be created, so it would be hard to compare.

Also, carbon-dating only works on things that were once alive. Unless the whole station is made of dead bodies or wood, carbon-dating won't get its age.

Carbon-dating probably could be used to get the rough age of old documents from other planets like Castrovel, but if that gives out too much info, then it's part of what was scrambled by the gap.


Pax Rafkin wrote:
Can’t they carbon date Absalom Station to at least get a “minimum” amount of time passes?

They could use scientific or magical methods to date samples of the same piece of the station and get results of 318 years up to several thousand. Any consistently is out the window with anything dating to the gap.


Starfinder Superscriber

I think Carbon dating is specifically called out in the lore as giving inconsistent results for things it applies to, along with all other forensic methods of dating things (like geology, astronomy, et cetera).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What's an Androffan android? I thought androids were still androids in the same way that dwarves are still dwarves and elves are still elves.

Is that not the case?


Starfinder Superscriber

My understanding is that Androffan androids refer to the specific ones created in time immemorial (read Pathfinder setting) by the First Ones, while 'normal' androids are their modern iterations, created primarily by humans (well, human run corporations).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
pithica42 wrote:
My understanding is that Androffan androids refer to the specific ones created in time immemorial (read Pathfinder setting) by the First Ones, while 'normal' androids are their modern iterations, created primarily by humans (well, human run corporations).

Right my understanding is that Humans reverse engineered the ones we have in the current Starfinder timeline from the original Androffan Androids.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
pithica42 wrote:
My understanding is that Androffan androids refer to the specific ones created in time immemorial (read Pathfinder setting) by the First Ones, while 'normal' androids are their modern iterations, created primarily by humans (well, human run corporations).

So who or what are the First Ones? And how do their androids differ from modern ones (mechanically and conceptually)?


Starfinder Superscriber

First Ones is the Anacite name/title for the beings that originally created them and the Androffan androids. They're a 'progenitor' race of some sort. They came to PW space a long time ago, they're tied heavily into Anacite culture and the ruins of their ancient cities are scattered across Aballon. They're in the PF lore somewhere, but I'm not very versed on that.


Nixitur wrote:
It's the history in the Gap that's messed up, and nobody knows how long it was. My personal theory is that Pathfinder takes place in the Gap. Would give both Pathfinder and Starfinder designers the greatest flexibility.

As I understand it, that's pretty much the point of the Gap - how to create a setting that's a sequel to another that's still in production, without locking in the metaplot of the original setting.


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pithica42 wrote:
First Ones is the Anacite name/title for the beings that originally created them and the Androffan androids. They're a 'progenitor' race of some sort. They came to PW space a long time ago, they're tied heavily into Anacite culture and the ruins of their ancient cities are scattered across Aballon. They're in the PF lore somewhere, but I'm not very versed on that.

The First Ones is the term the Anacites use for their creators but they have no link to the term Androffan. Androffa is a world in another galaxy from the pact world. It had no magic used in its dominant societies and relied solely on science. Among their many technological wonders were the first known Androids which were made primarily of artificial components that mimicked human biology and nanites. A massive Androffan ship had an accident with a wormhole generator and ended up crashing on Golarian tens of thousands of year prior to the start of the Pathfinder APs. Even after the crash some parts of the ship were able to function and new Androids would occasionally emerge from the wastes. Androids from Pathfinder are called Androffan to differentiate them from the race of the same name in Starfinder which are not explicitly derived from the Androffan ones and which exhibit different racial characteristics.


Starfinder Superscriber

Thank you for the correction. I had gotten the impression that the Androffan and First Ones were the same race from somewhere. My bad.


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No worries, I wish I could remember real world history as well as make believe stuff.

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