I’m getting ready to play a Summoner and I noticed
That he can cast “Monster Summon I”’as a standard
action.
So how I inturpit this is, the Summoner casts the spell
And then the monster/creature he summoned is available
That same round.
Correct?
I’m not wondering about any thing else...
Just the speed and meaning of the Summoners
Monster Summons
A summoner can cast summon monster as a standard action rather than the full round action the spell usually calls for.
Yes, and the summoned monster can act immediately. It gets to take its full round of actions in the round it is summoned.
This is not quite right.
The summoner gets summon monster as a spell-like ability. That ability is a standard action.
Summoners can also take summon monster spells as spells known. They are cast as a 1 round cast time spell as normal.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Also note that the summoner cannot use the spell-like ability if his eidolon is present. That is a big limitation.
Have to admit that a PC in my group has a Druid Cohort with the Archtype that lets him summon Dinosaurs as a Standard action and I restricted the Dinosaur to only getting to make a Standard action attack on the round it appeared.
He was miffed but the others didn't mind.
Well, yeah, you didn't nerf their characters. : /
Hope you offered to let him remake his character, if you decided that rule after he made it.
andreww wrote: This is not quite right.
The summoner gets summon monster as a spell-like ability. That ability is a standard action.
Summoners can also take summon monster spells as spells known. They are cast as a 1 round cast time spell as normal.
Where does it indicate that Summon Monster as a SLA is a standard action? Don't SLAs mimic the source spell, including casting time?
Generally, yes, however, if you read the Unchained Summoner's class abilities, particularly Summon Monster I, which outlines that it works as the spell BUT takes only a standard action to cast, and lasts one minute per level instead of one round.
Val'bryn2 wrote: Generally, yes, however, if you read the Unchained Summoner's class abilities, particularly Summon Monster I, which outlines that it works as the spell BUT takes only a standard action to cast, and lasts one minute per level instead of one round. The aside from the Unchained Summoner, a Summon X SLA is still a full-round action? Such as a demon's ability to summon other demons?
For all forms of standard action summoning. Summoner, Sacred Summons, Acadamae Graduate, the creature summoned should get its full round. If it summoned in position to attack, it gets its full attack action.
ckdragons wrote: Val'bryn2 wrote: Generally, yes, however, if you read the Unchained Summoner's class abilities, particularly Summon Monster I, which outlines that it works as the spell BUT takes only a standard action to cast, and lasts one minute per level instead of one round. The aside from the Unchained Summoner, a Summon X SLA is still a full-round action? Such as a demon's ability to summon other demons?
Normally a summon monster SLA would take 1 round to activate.
The summoner SLA specifies that it is a standard action.
Both original and unchained summoners have text specifying that their summon monster SLA is a standard action.
And only their SLA, if they cast it as a spell, it takes a full-round
SLA summoned creatures can also charge on their action. However, this is only a partial charge. It is at standard movement rather than double movement, but all other conditions of charge apply.
Where do you get that? A summoned monster gets its full sequence of actions. Move, standard, and swift.
Here is the line copied directly from Summon Monster.
"It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.'
My GM says this line states the SM 'attacks', not 'full attacks', your opponent. As such an 'attack' is a standard action and a 'full attack' is a full round action.
Have you found it written anywhere explicitely stating if SMs get a standard or full round action on the round it is summoned?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
A full attack is an attack.
Your GM is very wrong. "Attacks to the best of its ability" is just explaining that it does the best it can, which includes full attacks, spell like abilities, possibly even smiting if the target likely counts.
Alrighty then. But should your GM limit your summons to a standard action through house rules you can still charge as above.
Val'bryn2 wrote: Hope you offered to let him remake his character, if you decided that rule after he made it. It wasn't his character. It was his Cohort.
It was one of several Cohorts to apply for the job on the 3rd recruiting attempt (all candidates from the 2 previous recruiting attempts were deemed unsuitable due to class, race or alignment).
While I allowed him some imput into what Archtype etcetera the Druid would be he didn't get a complete Stat/Feat build control
Re: Alignment nixing - The PC at one point interrogated a bard with the following comment. "I'm going to skin you and wear your skin (after pealing of the Skin he had been wearing) it's your choice whether I kill you before or after I skin you".
So it was a fair call that non-evil Cohorts weren't really going to work out, but also not something you could put into the advertising.
Val'bryn2 wrote: Your GM is very wrong. "Attacks to the best of its ability" is just explaining that it does the best it can, which includes full attacks, spell like abilities, possibly even smiting if the target likely counts. I noticed you didn't quote the rule that says a creature summoned as a Standard action gets to make a full round of actions.
Stephen Ede wrote: Val'bryn2 wrote: Your GM is very wrong. "Attacks to the best of its ability" is just explaining that it does the best it can, which includes full attacks, spell like abilities, possibly even smiting if the target likely counts. I noticed you didn't quote the rule that says a creature summoned as a Standard action gets to make a full round of actions. Tell you what, go reread the combat chapter, the part that tells you exactly what actions can be taken in a round, and then you show me what rule says that no longer applies.
Val'bryn2 wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Val'bryn2 wrote: Your GM is very wrong. "Attacks to the best of its ability" is just explaining that it does the best it can, which includes full attacks, spell like abilities, possibly even smiting if the target likely counts. I noticed you didn't quote the rule that says a creature summoned as a Standard action gets to make a full round of actions. Tell you what, go reread the combat chapter, the part that tells you exactly what actions can be taken in a round, and then you show me what rule says that no longer applies.
Simple - they took the 1st part of the round appearing.
Strictly speaking the argument can be made that their Standard action is gone appearing and they only have a movement action left.
Keep in mind that summoned creatures normally acts on the casters initiative.
Raw the basic rules don't cover it because by the basic rules summoned creatures can't appear halfway through the casters turn.
So the class abilities that allow it should've specified how much of an action they get.
They don't TTBOMK which means it's up to GMs to make a ruling on it.
But feel free to point out where in the combat rules it covers what happens when a creature that acts as part of a characters initiative appears part way through that characters actions.
By that logic, since it's all happening at the same time, when the wizard casts fireball on my location, I can just move 30 feet away and take no damage. After all, my move action is when he's doing his standard action. The point is, there is a rule about what actions can be taken in a round, and there is not a rule that says that it doesn't apply to summoned monsters, no matter the time it takes to summon them.
Stephen Ede wrote: Val'bryn2 wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Val'bryn2 wrote: Your GM is very wrong. "Attacks to the best of its ability" is just explaining that it does the best it can, which includes full attacks, spell like abilities, possibly even smiting if the target likely counts. I noticed you didn't quote the rule that says a creature summoned as a Standard action gets to make a full round of actions. Tell you what, go reread the combat chapter, the part that tells you exactly what actions can be taken in a round, and then you show me what rule says that no longer applies.
Simple - they took the 1st part of the round appearing.
Strictly speaking the argument can be made that their Standard action is gone appearing and they only have a movement action left.
Keep in mind that summoned creatures normally acts on the casters initiative.
Raw the basic rules don't cover it because by the basic rules summoned creatures can't appear halfway through the casters turn.
So the class abilities that allow it should've specified how much of an action they get.
They don't TTBOMK which means it's up to GMs to make a ruling on it.
But feel free to point out where in the combat rules it covers what happens when a creature that acts as part of a characters initiative appears part way through that characters actions. except that's not how it works sure the summoner may have spent their standard action but the summon still has all their actions left which yes means they can full attack
i would also like to point out there are several feats that allow standard action summoning with the spells, both sacred summons and summon evil monster allow standard action summons
Val'bryn2 wrote: By that logic, since it's all happening at the same time, when the wizard casts fireball on my location, I can just move 30 feet away and take no damage. After all, my move action is when he's doing his standard action. The point is, there is a rule about what actions can be taken in a round, and there is not a rule that says that it doesn't apply to summoned monsters, no matter the time it takes to summon them. Fireball says Instantaneous.
And the rules say that you don't act simultaneously with other characters. The exception been with Summon spells where it says the Monster does.
I pointed out the rules don't actually address the situation (which couldn't occur when the spell was written) and your response is to say "I can therefore ignore all the things the rules do say".
Is your interpretation a reasonable interpretation of what was intended? Yes.
Is it more likely than the way I decided to rule it? Yes.
Does this mean your interpretation is RAW? No.
Will they ever Faq it? Even if it became a 50/50 on how people played it, probably not. I doubt they care enough or think it's important enough on it's effect on the game to matter.
About the only way I see an official ruling coming about would be if someone worked out a way for the difference to become really powerful, in which case they would likely rule that my approach was right. Even if they had intended it to be the way you play it.
The fact that a fireball is an instantaneous spell means nothing, because that's the duration. It still takes the same action as the summon monster SLA. I never claim to ignore rules, you haven't provided a rule for your view. And as for monsters acting simultaneously, they act on the same initiative count, not some hypothetical of dividing your actions between the two.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I didn't realize how powerful standard action summoning was until the low-level summoner in our party summoned a flock of eagles, each with 5 attacks (he had a feat to get them extra natural attacks). Not having to move into flanking with the enemy, they shredded the enemy in round one with their smiting full attacks. Then in round 2, they all full attacked again before the summoner summoned another batch of eagles which also immediately full-attacked!
It was something like 10-20 attacks in round 2, at low levels, and the enemy couldn't even move due to all the eagles everywhere! It totally made the rest of us look like the freaking BMX Bandit running with Angel Summoner. Just terrible.
I was absolutely flabbergasted when I found out that this was the one thing that didn't get fixed with the Unchained Summoner.
Ravingdork wrote: I didn't realize how powerful standard action summoning was until the low-level summoner in our party summoned a flock of eagles, each with 5 attacks (he had a feat to get them extra natural attacks). Not having to move into flanking with the enemy, they shredded the enemy in round one with their smiting full attacks. Then in round 2, they all full attacked again before the summoner summoned another batch of eagles which also immediately full-attacked!
It was something like 10-20 attacks in round 2, at low levels, and the enemy couldn't even move due to all the eagles everywhere! It totally made the rest of us look like the freaking BMX Bandit running with Angel Summoner. Just terrible.
I was absolutely flabbergasted when I found out that this was the one thing that didn't get fixed with the Unchained Summoner.
their summon monster sla is the only thing that makes unchained summoner still kinda ok
Ravingdork wrote: I didn't realize how powerful standard action summoning was until the low-level summoner in our party summoned a flock of eagles, each with 5 attacks (he had a feat to get them extra natural attacks). Not having to move into flanking with the enemy, they shredded the enemy in round one with their smiting full attacks. Then in round 2, they all full attacked again before the summoner summoned another batch of eagles which also immediately full-attacked!
It was something like 10-20 attacks in round 2, at low levels, and the enemy couldn't even move due to all the eagles everywhere! It totally made the rest of us look like the freaking BMX Bandit running with Angel Summoner. Just terrible.
I was absolutely flabbergasted when I found out that this was the one thing that didn't get fixed with the Unchained Summoner.
Anything is broken when you play it wrong. The Unchained Summoner can only have one SLA Summon Monster running at any given time. If he had a feat to get an extra attack, it brings them up to 4 attacks, with, frankly, pretty low accuracy, since the eagle's smite won't add to attack rolls. And as for a "flock" of eagles, he typically gets 1 at levels 1 and 2, between 1 and 3 at levels 3-4, and at 5 and up between 2-5 eagles. At 7 HP maximum, they won't last long.
Val'bryn2 wrote: Ravingdork wrote: I didn't realize how powerful standard action summoning was until the low-level summoner in our party summoned a flock of eagles, each with 5 attacks (he had a feat to get them extra natural attacks). Not having to move into flanking with the enemy, they shredded the enemy in round one with their smiting full attacks. Then in round 2, they all full attacked again before the summoner summoned another batch of eagles which also immediately full-attacked!
It was something like 10-20 attacks in round 2, at low levels, and the enemy couldn't even move due to all the eagles everywhere! It totally made the rest of us look like the freaking BMX Bandit running with Angel Summoner. Just terrible.
I was absolutely flabbergasted when I found out that this was the one thing that didn't get fixed with the Unchained Summoner.
Anything is broken when you play it wrong. The Unchained Summoner can only have one SLA Summon Monster running at any given time. If he had a feat to get an extra attack, it brings them up to 4 attacks, with, frankly, pretty low accuracy, since the eagle's smite won't add to attack rolls. And as for a "flock" of eagles, he typically gets 1 at levels 1 and 2, between 1 and 3 at levels 3-4, and at 5 and up between 2-5 eagles. At 7 HP maximum, they won't last long. While you are entirely correct about the fact that he can only have one SLA running at the time, nothing stops a Summoner from summoning something, have them do their full attacks, then the next round have the pre-existing summoned creatures attack, before you use your SLA again (causing the earlier summons to vanish), getting essentially two sets of full attacks in a round. Having played a monster tactician who only used this as a last resort, let me tell you, it is brutal.
Relevant rules snippet: Quote: A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate from this spell-like ability immediately ends.
I'm a bit curious what Feat he used to get extra attacks on multiple eagles.
I'm aware of Evolved Summon Monster, but that can only grant a single extra attack, and only to one of the eagles per SLA activation.
...and I thought was a decent enough Feat...
RoseCrown wrote: I'm a bit curious what Feat he used to get extra attacks on multiple eagles.
I'm aware of Evolved Summon Monster, but that can only grant a single extra attack, and only to one of the eagles per SLA activation.
...and I thought was a decent enough Feat...
A good question, since that feat wouldn't help the eagles. It states you can't give a creature additional natural attacks unless it's medium. And eagles are small.
Pounce wrote: Val'bryn2 wrote: Ravingdork wrote: I didn't realize how powerful standard action summoning was until the low-level summoner in our party summoned a flock of eagles, each with 5 attacks (he had a feat to get them extra natural attacks). Not having to move into flanking with the enemy, they shredded the enemy in round one with their smiting full attacks. Then in round 2, they all full attacked again before the summoner summoned another batch of eagles which also immediately full-attacked!
It was something like 10-20 attacks in round 2, at low levels, and the enemy couldn't even move due to all the eagles everywhere! It totally made the rest of us look like the freaking BMX Bandit running with Angel Summoner. Just terrible.
I was absolutely flabbergasted when I found out that this was the one thing that didn't get fixed with the Unchained Summoner.
Anything is broken when you play it wrong. The Unchained Summoner can only have one SLA Summon Monster running at any given time. If he had a feat to get an extra attack, it brings them up to 4 attacks, with, frankly, pretty low accuracy, since the eagle's smite won't add to attack rolls. And as for a "flock" of eagles, he typically gets 1 at levels 1 and 2, between 1 and 3 at levels 3-4, and at 5 and up between 2-5 eagles. At 7 HP maximum, they won't last long. While you are entirely correct about the fact that he can only have one SLA running at the time, nothing stops a Summoner from summoning something, have them do their full attacks, then the next round have the pre-existing summoned creatures attack, before you use your SLA again (causing the earlier summons to vanish), getting essentially two sets of full attacks in a round. Having played a monster tactician who only used this as a last resort, let me tell you, it is brutal.
Relevant rules snippet: Quote: A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one ... they can if they are a master summoner there are also ways to get the spell to be a standard action to summon so they need not rely entirely on the sla for their standard action summon
He said summoner, which rules out the standard action summoning I'm aware of, though I am admittedly not up to date with all of it. As for Master Summoner, that's possible, but there is a reason they redid the Summoner class and states that it wasn't compatible with the old archetypes.
Val'bryn2 wrote: He said summoner, which rules out the standard action summoning I'm aware of, though I am admittedly not up to date with all of it. As for Master Summoner, that's possible, but there is a reason they redid the Summoner class and states that it wasn't compatible with the old archetypes. Quote: Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace. When they redid summoner they say that it is compatible with old archetypes. Monk is the one that isn't compatible with old archetypes.
I didn't look at it throughly but when I glanced at it some Monk Archtypes still seemed to work.
Sohei looked fine
Monk is called out as a specific exception to retro-fitting for unchained archetypes.
"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace." http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/classes/index.html
Sohei came out long before unchained, so it's not a valid archetype for unchained monk.
A closer look tells us that Sohei also trades out slow fall, abundant step, diamond body, and quivering palm all of which are now optional-to-select abilities that fall under the ki powers class feature for the unchained monk and not class features in and of themselves.
Hmm. I wonder if any third party has successfully made a system for applying monk archetypes to the unchained monk in a consistent manner.
Okay, I was wrong about the archetype. Never played a summoner before, so hadn't looked at those details really.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
blahpers wrote: Hmm. I wonder if any third party has successfully made a system for applying monk archetypes to the unchained monk in a consistent manner. Everyman Unchained: Monk Archetypes. Haven't used it yet myself.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The player in question was not a master summoner, and he played the combat round correctly (the first group of eagles disappeared when he summoned the second set).
We may have overlooked the size restriction of the feat though. Even so, the tactic is still crazy powerful, even if it comes online a couple of levels later.
Tusk the Half-Orc wrote: blahpers wrote: Hmm. I wonder if any third party has successfully made a system for applying monk archetypes to the unchained monk in a consistent manner. Everyman Unchained: Monk Archetypes. Haven't used it yet myself. Neat. If one of my players decides to go UM, I'll give it a look-see.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
